Lerasium in Roshar

[Phantom Monstrosity]

Actually, I was quoting your interpretation of Brandon's answer. It was a genuine question not intended to hurt or slander you. If you took it as offensive then you misinterpreted it, not me. If you had a problem with the way it was phrased you should have drawn attention to your concern then.

 

I have very dutifully, and very comprehensively addressed every point you have made. Unlike yourself who has ignored several points made by not just me, but everyone else in this thread. If you felt I was being terse then why did you treat everyone else who was trying to have a discussion with you under the same pretense?

 

This thread is going to get moderator intervention soon and I've said everything within limits that I need to.

I was not offended, I thought you'd just missed the post.

[Rubix he/him]

All of you need to take a few steps back and realize that this discussion is going NOWHERE. It hasn't gone anywhere in THREE DAYS. You've covered three pages and nobody's opinion is changing. I'm not sure, but last I checked, none of us here know exactly what Brandon meant by “basic” in an interview, which was not only not recorded verbatim (Brandon is known for being very crafty with the way he words things), but was also more than three years ago. Since that interview (it was before WoK was published) we've seen multiple (I'm counting at least two, with a potential of at least five) new characters who have at least enough knowledge of Realmatics that they're able to transport themselves between realms, as well as actually seeing into Shadesmar at least twice.

 

I do agree that we need more clarification on this point, but until that comes, arguing about it isn't going to change anyone's opinion. I'll personally get clarification on it the next time I talk to him. For now, I'd like this topic dropped, and if we can't get back to discussing the topic at hand, I'm going to lock this topic, if not hide it.

 

In the meantime, please remember. This is a fictional work, not all of which has been published yet. Yes, Brandon has answered many questions, but he's not been 100% consistent between interviews and what's been published. Yes, he's pretty close to it, but he does change his mind from time to time, and that's okay too. I'd rather see what awesome things he's able to do with the cosmere going forward, than nail him down to what he's said in the past.

[happyman he/him]

"Ah, I've been asked this before. There are a number of theories, but nobody's really sure, since there haven't really been any opportunities to alloy lerasium with atium. You can choose which one to believe. Most require an understanding of realmatic theory to comprehend, which you need to be a Shard or Splinter to even begin to understand."

I think that Phantom is technically, grammatically correct in arguing that "which" can only be a referent to Realmantic theory.  However, using my understanding of colloquial English, I consider it just as likely that the "which" is referring back to the understanding needed to understand what happens when you mix Lerasium and Atium.  In other words, you need to be a shard or splinter to understand how to apply realmantics to a Lerasium/Atium alloy, at least without experimental evidence.

This parallels the real world.  There are plenty of phenomena in the real world where humans understand the basics, but there are emergent phenomena so complex, you would have to be a god to really understand how you from the basics to the phenomena.  Biology contains a lot of examples of that.

It's not the best usage, but this kind of ambiguity is common in spoken English.  I tend towards this interpretation.

[WeiryWriter he/him]

Let's see if I can get the original topic going again, since I was the one who derailed it... oops

 

Hmm... Lerasium is tricky.

 

My personal pet theory (that is probably not going to be true) is that lerasium acts as a wildcard in allomancy like atium is for hemalurgy.  I think it would be very nice and symmetrical.  All of the Words of Brandon however lend themselves to be interpreted that lerasium is used to re-write spiritwebs in various ways (with "mistborn" being the default).

 

Lerasium on Roshar... I don't know how useful it would be since magic there doesn't really seem to have a genetic component.  Then again, I do think the focus there will end up being spiritual in nature (though I don't really have a way of coherently explaining how that would work yet)  so I wonder how those two things would interact.

 

I could also see lerasium being used as a fuel for surgebinding, instead of stormlight.  We know a shard can directly fuel a magic system that isn't associated with them (i.e. preservation->hemalurgy and ruin->allomancy) so in theory preservation could possibly fuel surgebinding and lerasium is a concentrated portion of preservation's power...  Eh that doesn't sound very likely at all... It would probably require that preservation be partially invested in Roshar.  So just ignore this paragraph.

[Isomere]

There is a big difference between burning Lerasium and using it to fuel other magic systems. Anyone on Scadrial can burn Lerasium to become a Mistborn, but that is accessing the power through preservations own magic system. I suspect you need investiture from preservation to use it like that, and I dont think it would work for people from Roshar. On the other hand, I don't see evidence that would restrict surgebinders from using it instead of Stormlight.

[WeiryWriter he/him]

There is a big difference between burning Lerasium and using it to fuel other magic systems. Anyone on Scadrial can burn Lerasium to become a Mistborn, but that is accessing the power through preservations own magic system. I suspect you need investiture from preservation to use it like that, and I dont think it would work for people from Roshar. On the other hand, I don't see evidence that would restrict surgebinders from using it instead of Stormlight.

 

I might be misreading you, but you seem to be saying that only scadrians can use lerasium to become mistborn, which we know isn't the case.  Anyone who burns it, and lerasium is a metal that anyone can burn, becomes a mistborn regardless of the planet they were born. (Evidenced by the quote in the OP)

 

If I did misread you, I apologize, but I do want to straighten this out.

Edited July 13, 2013 by WeiryWriter

[ROSHtafARian]

Maybe the significance of the Lerasium isn't to make someone an Allomancer, but to introduce Preservation's Investiture into the sDNA of other worlds' populations?

[firstRainbowRose she/her]

Clarification of quote in question (earlier in the topic):

 

Brandon has clarified that the shard or splinter is needed in order to understand how to create and utilize some of the alloys.  Understanding realmatic theory... well, we listed quite a few people who could do that.

[Wonko the Sane he/him]

This is reaching back a few pages (but in this thread, what isn't), but I'd like to contest the claim that a lerasium-created mistborn could not benefit from instinctual use of more lerasium. Keep in mind that the process of becoming a lerasium savant is one and the same with the process of Ascension. If I recall correctly, Brandon's words were "that's basically what Ascension is," implying that the two processes are not merely equivalent - they are the exact same thing. This means that when Vin is takes in the mists, she is essentially burning vast quantities of gaseous lerasium. The effect of this (apart from becoming a god)? She notices an enormous boost in her allomantic strength, which continues to increase as she takes in more of the mists. Before the end of it, she has become powerful enough to collapse the largest structure in Luthadel. If, say, Elend were to burn more lerasium, I feel that it would have a similar effect.

 

An alternative defense: If the mistborn created by a sample of lerasium has the same power regardless of how large the sample, are we saying that the number of full-power mistborn you can create with a single bead of lerasium is limited only by the number of flakes you can shave off of it? No? Well, if less lerasium creates a weaker mistborn, it should follow that more lerasium creates a stronger one.

[Iredomi]

Wonko i would definitely agree with you. I didnt understand lerasium only increasing ones abilities to a specific and restrictive cap level. Lerasium is one of the more interesting metals, do we know if it can be used hemalurgically? Sorry if that is a stupid question.

[Shardlet he/him]

We assume it can, but really we have no clue about whether it can or what it can do.

[Araris Valerian he/him]

Another possibility is that while burning lerasium you have the power to modify your spiritweb. This might mean that if you burn 5 grams of lerasium then you would have 20 characters within your spiritweb that you can edit. If allomantic power is only stored within those 20 characters, then the leftover power would have no effect allomantically, and simply continue rewriting your spiritweb to be closer to that of preservation.

[Aether he/him]

Another possibility is that while burning lerasium you have the power to modify your spiritweb. This might mean that if you burn 5 grams of lerasium then you would have 20 characters within your spiritweb that you can edit. If allomantic power is only stored within those 20 characters, then the leftover power would have no effect allomantically, and simply continue rewriting your spiritweb to be closer to that of preservation.

Actually, no. Eating more of it would make you allomantically stronger. Lerasium is part of Preservations power and the more you consume of it, the closer you get to ascending, which was basically what happened to Vin when she drew in the mists. There is also a WoB on this somewhere.

 

 

EDIT: Found them:

 

17th Shard

If a Mistborn burns lerasium, as in, not just ingests it, what effect would it grant Allomantically?

Brandon Sanderson

That is a RAFO. It would do something, but the thing you've gotta remember is that, when ingesting lerasium for the first time and gaining the powers, your body is actually burning it. Think of lerasium as a metal anyone can burn. Does that make sense?

17TH SHARD

It does.

BRANDON SANDERSON

By burning it you gain access to those powers. It rewrites your spiritual DNA, and there are ways to do really cool things with lerasium that I don't see how anyone would know. Were most Mistborn to just burn it, it would rewrite their genetic code to increase their power as an Allomancer.

<source>

Douglas

What about a Lerasium savant? Or would that require so much Lerasium that the person attempting it would ascend to become a new Shardholder?

Brandon Sanderson

Basically, this is what ascension is.

<source>

Edited December 5, 2013 by Aether

[Oudeis he/him]

Actually, no. Eating more of it would make you allomantically stronger. Lerasium is part of Preservations power and the more you consume of it, the closer you get to ascending, which was basically what happened to Vin when she drew in the mists. There is also a WoB on this somewhere.

 

I'm not so sure I buy this interpretation of the quote. The quote you use to support "All the lerasium = ascension" is asking about lerasium savanthood, which is not the same thing as "burning more lerasium". Flaring tin constantly for months is what turns you into a tin savant, but being a tin savant is a different state of being than simply burning a lot of tin.

 

Spoilers for the ending of Mistborn

I also suspect, based on nothing more than my gut, that it sorta has to be done at once. If you could increase your power, become a more-powerful mistborn, I feel like there's an upper limit where it's too much Investiture for one physical body and your body would burn through, and that's probably a LOT less Investiture than it takes to be a Shard. If Vin hadn't absorbed literally ALL the mist and turned into Presevation, I think the power she took would have simply killed her and she wouldn't have ascended. Lerasium does that one specific thing and even if eating a lot of it did turn you into Preservation, I suspect there would be a number of complications to overcome before you could simply eat lerasium parmigiana and Ascend.

 

EDIT: Grammar.

Edited December 5, 2013 by Ookla the Confuzified Esq

[Aether he/him]

I'm not so sure I buy this interpretation of the quote. The quote you use to support "All the lerasium = ascension" is asking about lerasium savanthood, which is not the same thing as "burning more lerasium". Flaring tin constantly for months is what turns you into a tin savant, but being a tin savant is a different state of being than simply burning a lot of tin.

 

Ending of Mistborn spoilers

I also suspect, based on nothing more than my gut, that it sorta has to be done at once. If you could increase your power, become a more-powerful mistborn, I feel like there's an upper limit where it's too much Investiture for one physical body and your body would burn through, and that's probably a LOT less Investiture than it takes to be a Shard. If Vin hadn't absorbed literally ALL the mist and turned into Presevation, I think the power she took would have simply killed her and she wouldn't have ascended. Lerasium does that one specific thing and even if eating a lot of it did turn you into Preservation, I suspect there would be a number of complications to overcome before you could simply eat lerasium parmigiana and Ascend.

Not all of the quotes are a 100% relevant. You seem to have missed the most important one, however:

 

BRANDON SANDERSON

Were most Mistborn to just burn it, it would rewrite their genetic code to increase their power as an Allomancer.

[Oudeis he/him]

Oh, whoops. Teehee! Look, be distracted by this upvote while I run away!

 

::line of smoke disappearing in the distance::

[Araris Valerian he/him]

Quote

 

BRANDON SANDERSON

Were most Mistborn to just burn it, it would rewrite their genetic code to increase their power as an Allomancer.

 

This, In my opinion, is referencing to the fact that only Vin and Elend were at 100% allomantic strength (Hence the "most Mistborn"). Other people would have their Mistborn code fixed up by lerasium's default power to be 100% as well. Again, just my opinion, but I think that this is kind of like Allomantic iron or Allomantic steel, which have a default purpose of making blue lines appear. You have to actually try to push/pull once you are burning the metal, and continuous burning doesn't change the lines. You have to actually try to do something to make the metals you see move. Likewise, lerasium has a default ability of editing your Mistborn spiritweb, but the excess energy could simply leak away when you don't use it to change any other parts of your spiritweb.

Edited December 5, 2013 by Ookla the Impotent

[Shardlet he/him]

I agree that Brandon's use of the term "most mistborn" indicates that there is an upper level.  I also agree that Elend was at 100% because he burned the lerasium.  However, Vin repeatedly indicated that Elend had stronger raw allomantic power than she did.  This indicates to me that, while Vin was allomantically stronger than your typical mistborn, she was not at 100% power.  The only times she reached (and imo exceeded) this perceived threshold was when she was mistburning.

[Aether he/him]

This, In my opinion, is referencing to the fact that only Vin and Elend were at 100% allomantic strength (Hence the "most Mistborn"). Other people would have their Mistborn code fixed up by lerasium's default power to be 100% as well. Again, just my opinion, but I think that this is kind of like Allomantic iron or Allomantic steel, which have a default purpose of making blue lines appear. You have to actually try to push/pull once you are burning the metal, and continuous burning doesn't change the lines. You have to actually try to do something to make the metals you see move. Likewise, lerasium has a default ability of editing your Mistborn spiritweb, but the excess energy could simply leak away when you don't use it to change any other parts of your spiritweb.

Hmm. You might have a point there. I would have argued if I hadn't noticed the "most Mistborn", part.

 

 

EDIT: Ninja'd!

Edited December 5, 2013 by Aether

[Oudeis he/him]

::comes running back from the distance:: Aha! I'm not as dumb as I look! Or sound! Or the specialist's tests indicated!

[Wonko the Sane he/him]

You have to keep context in mind. Just before he declares what would happen, "were most mistborn to burn it," he discusses the fact that "there are ways to do really cool things with lerasium that I don't see how anyone would know." To me, this is saying that most of the time, lerasium just has the instinctual default effect of making mistborn stronger - but, if you know what you're doing and have a strong grasp of the realmatics of the situation, it can do a number of other interesting things.

 

There also remains my argument that if more lerasium doesn't make a stronger mistborn, than less lerasium shouldn't make a weaker one - implying that a single bead of lerasium can produce an army. The only explanation for a maximum mistborn strength that does not include this broken possibility is that more lerasium does induce more power, but only up to an arbitrarily imposed limit. If we accept this, there must be an explanation of exactly what force imposes this limit, and why that specific power level is the maximum. So far as I can tell, no one has yet addressed this. the closest they have come is to propose that excess power simply leaks away, without the slightest clue as to why this might happen.

[Aether he/him]

The only explanation for a maximum mistborn strength that does not include this broken possibility is that more lerasium does induce more power, but only up to an arbitrarily imposed limit. If we accept this, there must be an explanation of exactly what force imposes this limit, and why that specific power level is the maximum. So far as I can tell, no one has yet addressed this. the closest they have come is to propose that excess power simply leaks away, without the slightest clue as to why this might happen.

We have discussed some of this, but we ended up forgoing a conclusion until we have more information: 1, 2 and 3.

[Oudeis he/him]

It's possible there's a threshold: you have to burn a certain amount of lerasium before it does anything, and once it does the default effect is binary. A single flake might not do anything at all.

[Shardlet he/him]

You have to keep context in mind. Just before he declares what would happen, "were most mistborn to burn it," he discusses the fact that "there are ways to do really cool things with lerasium that I don't see how anyone would know." To me, this is saying that most of the time, lerasium just has the instinctual default effect of making mistborn stronger - but, if you know what you're doing and have a strong grasp of the realmatics of the situation, it can do a number of other interesting things.

 

There also remains my argument that if more lerasium doesn't make a stronger mistborn, than less lerasium shouldn't make a weaker one - implying that a single bead of lerasium can produce an army. The only explanation for a maximum mistborn strength that does not include this broken possibility is that more lerasium does induce more power, but only up to an arbitrarily imposed limit. If we accept this, there must be an explanation of exactly what force imposes this limit, and why that specific power level is the maximum. So far as I can tell, no one has yet addressed this. the closest they have come is to propose that excess power simply leaks away, without the slightest clue as to why this might happen.

 

 

 

Actually, I was keeping the context in mind.  But, the statement references the previous context, but does not rely on it.  "Were most mistborn to just burn it, it would rewrite their genetic code to increase their power as an allomancer."  The quote only refers to the case of "just" burning it.  He is speaking of the default effect of lerasium.  Burning without intent for it to do anything (like Elend's lerasium burn).  For "most mistborn" (and anyone else for that matter) , but not all mistborn, an unguided burn results in greater allomantic power.

 

As to the more/less argument.  Consider, in my view the power of lerasium is the sDNA rewrite.  Consider the analogy of rewriting two  100GB hard drives.  Hard Drive A (HDA) has 100 GB of data on the drive.  Hard Drive B (HDB) has only 50 GB of data on the drive.   Which drive takes more energy to rewrite with 75GB of new data, HDA or HDB? Answer is, they both take the same amount of energy regardless of the amount of data currently on each drive.  Now, consider if you want to rewrite HAD (or HDB) with 75 GB of new data, but you only have power to accomplish 50% of the rewrite.   What happens then?  Well, you don’t get the full rewrite because you lack sufficient power to complete the rewrite.

[Mikanium]

Oh, I was close =)