Hoid has the Lord Ruler's Atium Bracers

[Shardlet he/him]

Yeah, it definitely seems odd. With purity being a big thing for the metal arts, and them being the only place he had age stored, dilution doesn't make much sense.

 

I doubt the atium was mixed with the other metal.  For one thing, I doubt atium chemistry would have been known well enough (at least outside the ministry) to separate the atium from an alloy.  I suspect that the atium was simply bonded to the other metal by soldering or brazing.

[DocHoliday he/him]

Is it not possible that the bracers were alloyed for practical purposes? The guy lived for a thousand years not all metals would last for that long. Atium supposedly breaks down in the stomach pretty quickly.

[Jaaaaaade]

My interpretation was that it was only a small ring of pure atium touching his skin, but the rest of the bracers were another metal. He didn't need much metal, his other metalminds were just rings and he could still manage his impressive feats. 

Hell, the smartest thing to do would have made atium bracers with an aluminium outer shell, so they couldn't ever be pulled off. It's not like he didn't have the cash.

[DocHoliday he/him]

They were piecing his skin, so that in itself should have prevented anyone from blowing them off. Vin only managed it with the Mists

[Shardlet he/him]

That brings up an interesting point.  Could Vin, while consuming mist, have pushed/pulled/sensed aluminum?  I don't think we could answer it except by WoB.  But, it is interesting to think about. 

If so, then Sazed could presumably mistfeed Wax to do so.

 

[DocHoliday he/him]

Preservation, maybe. Ruin, doubtful. Harmony, also doubtful. I don't see the rules of Allowmancy being violated in HoA, just empowered to the 10th degree. Aluminum is totally Allowmantically unreactive. Ruin can't even see metal, so my gut feeling is no.

[Shardlet he/him]

I think it is important to note that aluminum is known to be allomantically unreactive only given the knowledge, experience, and information the people in AoL have.  This is not necessarily an absolute rule.  Remember, in TFE, it was thought to be an allomantic rule that metal that is piercing someone or inside their body could not be sensed or manipulated.  And before you say it, yes, TLR and the inquisitors at least new it could be sensed/manipulated, but the general populous including the nobility understood that this was not possible.

Edited July 15, 2013 by Shardlet

[DocHoliday he/him]

You make a point about General knowledge in the populace. In AoL we see that Allowmancy in general is being toyed with to figure out new methods to counteract the Metal Arts. So it's it possible? Without direct evidence to the contrary, I'd have to say yes. The knowledge we possess its based on Ars Arcanum and POV both of which have proven faulty before. So I have to look into Harmony's capabilities.

 

And now that I think about it, I have to say yes due to the events at the end of HoA. Harmony couldn't have managed that if he wasn't capable of moving Aluminum. And per Vin' s Ascension, a Shard can empower an individual. Soooo, I have to reverse my opinion to say yes, Shardlet. 

[Shardlet he/him]

It is largely academic.  I doubt brandon would use the same plot device in a truly significant circumstance again.

Although, it appears he did with Wax's hemallurgic earring and apparent mistpowered pewter burn during the warehouse fight at the end of AoL.

[DocHoliday he/him]

I don't think the earring is needed for the the warehouse s scene though. Not only should it have next to no Charge, Mistfeed allows for the burning of metal, with no metal. Unless you're implying that the next to no Charge stamped his Spirit Web with the ability to burn Pewter and Harmony just pumped it from there?

[Shardlet he/him]

That is the thought which I was putting forth.  Though I cannot take credit for it.  I picked it up in another thread.  Mist fuel gives you heightened power.  We don't have a canon example for it, but I doubt that without the ability to burn pewter (in this case given by a hemallurgic spike, weak as it may be) the mist fuel would fuel pewter.  Even with a negligible ability to burn pewter, the mist fuel heightening should enable a strong enough burn for some substantial fatigue and pain relief.

[DocHoliday he/him]

I can see that working, but I think you would need a Shardic level of power to affect Aluminum. I don't think even Savants would be able to affect it without some kind of Hemalurgy in the mix.

 

On a side note, do you think Aluminum piecings would make it more difficult to Push the Aluminum? Do the effects stack additionally,multiplicity or exponentially? Or not at all? If Vin is capable of ripping Bracers out, would she be an able to affect Aluminum then?

[Shardlet he/him]

If aluminum can in fact be manipulated in some way, I would expect that is would be multiplicatively more difficult to manipulate if it pierced someones flesh or was inside of them.

[DocHoliday he/him]

Then in theory TLR should have sheathed his Bracers in Aluminum then as a safe guard against Inquisitors tampering. It would only take a needlepoint of Atium touching him on the inside to access the whole storage.

Edited July 16, 2013 by DocHoliday

[Kurkistan he/him]

Forgive me if I've missed a quote or passage, but why does everyone seem to be convinced that plating a metal with Aluminum would "shield" the metal from Pushes/Pulls? If that were the case, Miles could just have used electroplated weapons instead of making everything out of some solid through-and-through, rarer-than-gold aluminum alloy.

[DocHoliday he/him]

Why would electroplating shield a weapon from Alomantic Pushes? 

Shardlet and I are just bouncing ideas off one another, since there's no canon on it.

[Shardlet he/him]

Electroplating a layer of aluminum is extremely difficult due to the ultra-high activity of aluminum.  It corrodes instantly during bonding which makes for a very poor bond to the metal being plated. 

 

I suppose that the idea of an aluminum coating protecting against pushing and pulling results from the aluminum lining in hats to protect from emotional allomancy, etc.

 

Edit: Kurk is talking about your post where you said TLR should have sheathed his bracers in aluminum to protect them from the inquisitors.

Edited July 16, 2013 by Shardlet

[Kurkistan he/him]

Sorry about that coming a bit out of nowhere. I've seen that assumption bandied about on several threads by now, so I may have overreacted a bit.

 

I hadn't known electroplating was so finicky for aluminum, but I think that's the kind of problem you manage to work around by the time you get to the point when it's a choice between finding a way to sheathe you gun in not!gold versus making the entire gun out of not!gold.

 

EDIT: I forgot to mention it when I first noticed it, buy your avatar is far less creepy now that it's not flesh-toned, Shardlet.

Edited July 16, 2013 by Kurkistan

[Jaaaaaade]

I assumed Pushing or Pulling on Aluminium was akin to doing it to wood. Not even Harmony could bend the rules that much. I still might be assuming too much though.

[aeromancer he/him]

Definitely. Brandon's Laws of Magic might allow for flesh-contact metal to be overridden (never made sense in the first place) but every magic system needs an ace in the hole to fight it, and for Allomancy, its Aluminum.

[DocHoliday he/him]

Sorry about that coming a bit out of nowhere. I've seen that assumption bandied about on several threads by now, so I may have overreacted a bit.

 

I hadn't known electroplating was so finicky for aluminum, but I think that's the kind of problem you manage to work around by the time you get to the point when it's a choice between finding a way to sheathe you gun in not!gold versus making the entire gun out of not!gold.

 

EDIT: I forgot to mention it when I first noticed it, buy your avatar is far less creepy now that it's not flesh-toned, Shardlet.

So I just want to clarify that you're interpreting the Aluminum sheath (possible or not through electroplating) as a firm of bonding the Aluminum to the Bracers/gun? Cause I was just thinking of making an Aluminum mold and filling it with Atium. Our would this have the same effect like Warbreaker' s Phantoms? Ignoring the outer layer but affecting the innards?

 

I assumed Pushing or Pulling on Aluminium was akin to doing it to wood. Not even Harmony could bend the rules that much. I still might be assuming too much though.

Here's the problem in HoA the world gets pushed around. You're telling me he can't Push Aluminum when he does that?

[Shardlet he/him]

Also, I think you guys are speaking in absolutes without a solid evidence basis to support such an absolute declaration.  You may be absolutely correct.  But given what we know so far, the possibility (not even a thI posed may be correct.  The point is, yes, even a lerasium allomancer would not be able to push/pull aluminum.  However, we have no basis to positively state that a mist-fueled allomancer unequivocally could not.

[Kurkistan he/him]

So I just want to clarify that you're interpreting the Aluminum sheath (possible or not through electroplating) as a firm of bonding the Aluminum to the Bracers/gun? Cause I was just thinking of making an Aluminum mold and filling it with Atium. Our would this have the same effect like Warbreaker' s Phantoms? Ignoring the outer layer but affecting the innards?

 

Electroplating was just one way to make sure it all stayed in place. I think a mold would have the same (non-) effect: ignoring the aluminum and getting at the metal beneath. I can quite easily imagine Brandon having gone another way with it, and letting aluminum "shield" other metals, but the events and exposition of AoL suggest that he did not.

[DocHoliday he/him]

I think in the external world (guns, knives, etc.) This makes sense, as far as Aluminum sheathing goes. We're playing with the idea of Aluminum piercings (although I think the same principal applies [and I also agree that Lerasium Mistborn couldn't manage the feat]) and whether Shard level power can influence it. I repeat, that given Harmony's ability to manipulate the planet, it seems likely he can Push Aluminum.

 

A possible hole in this theory is that the Aluminum (in the Crust/Mantle) is Pushed in conjunction with the rock of the planet. I.E. Push on the Iron situated around the planet and everything else moves. I state this because I'm not stubborn in the idea that I'm right, but that I wish us to be able to extrapolate the TRUE nature of Allowmancy. If I'm wrong, please prove it or provide a contrary example, it's been done before, and I'm sure Kurk has the know how and Phantom the quote

[Kurkistan he/him]

If you insist, Doc

 

Preservation's power is not Allomancy. It's the Power of Creation (note the capitalization), and he can do pretty much whatever he pleases with it. Allomancy, as we know from the AoLAAA, is just a very very specific manifestation and utilization of Investiture. Preservation's power moving a planet is no more akin to a Steelpush than Steelpush is to a Lashing.