Godmetal Alloys

[aeromancer he/him]

What happens if you alloy atium and lerasium?

 

If a non-Mistborn burns it, it'll probably make you a Seer.

If a Mistborn burns it...

[Shardlet he/him]

I suspect lerasium burning would be an overwrite instead of an enhancement.  That is, a lerasium mistborn burning another piece of lerasium would result in a lerasium mistborn rather than a super-powerful lerasium mistborn.

[Claincy he/him]

Fairly certain that Lerasium is a complete overwrite. We get some details of how it works from the MAG.

 

In the unlikely event that a Misting able to burn a different metal were to consume and burn a Lerasium alloy, it would have the same effect as on a character
with no Powers: the Misting’s current metal would be replaced with the alloy metal, at a rating of 6 and with two Stunts. Thus, if a Steel Misting found and burned an alloy of Lerasium and Pewter, he or she would lose the ability to burn Steel and gain Pewter 6 with two Pewter Stunts.

From that, for a mistborn to burn a base lerasium alloy might be a very bad idea.

 

It also talks about a misting burning a lerasium alloy for their metal. In game terms it would increase their rating with the metal by 1. So essentially it is making them have the strength of a generation 1 allomancer. So I think you are correct in saying that this would apply to mistborn burning lerasium.

[aeromancer he/him]

You're missing the point here:

A full Mistborn burning a Atium/Lerasium alloy.

 

My theory is that such an alloy allows you to make other people full Mistborns.

Edited July 15, 2013 by aeromancer

[Windrunner he/him]

I just wanted to mention that all caps is typically considered to be bad form online. It's the equivalent of internet shouting, and it just looks rude. Even if you aren't intending to be offensive, it can come across that way. Much better italicize or bold the words you want to draw attention to. Just a little tip

[aeromancer he/him]

Acknowledged.

Edited July 14, 2013 by aeromancer

[Claincy he/him]

Ok, on that one I think there might be a couple of atium/lerasium alloys. Mostly Atium with a little Lerasium might make a mistborn slightly more powerful with atium, or, it might turn them into a powerful seer instead.

 

It is quite possible that there are other alloys: stuff we do know.

Atium is mental/temporal/external and lerasium is physical/enhancement/internal and that both of them pass some of those qualities onto their alloys (of which they have multiple with each metal). This can be seen in Malatium (gold/atium alloy) as malatium is an external metal directly opposite to gold.

 

An old common theory for what a more proportional alloy of the two would do is turning you into a feruchemist, but I don't so much think thats the case now.

[aeromancer he/him]

Feruchemy seems much older than either Allomancy or Hemalurgy.

I don't have any evidence, but that's how it seems.

Malatium simulates someone else burning gold, so perhaps Atium/Lerasium simulates someone burning Lerasium?

[Shardlet he/him]

Allomancy and feruchemy were present at the time that Rashek took the power at the well.  But they were present in only a very limited way.  feruchemy was the only majorly present system at that time. 

Sazed talks about it in the Epilogues for HoA

[Windrunner he/him]

All three magics existed Pre-Ascension. Every person on Scadrial has the seeds of the Metallic Arts within them, so I imagine that they've been around since Preservation and Ruin first gave life to humanity.

[aeromancer he/him]

Fine. There's no way, however, I buy the fact that atium is a temporal metal. Ruin is (in our current knowledge) the worst at Foresight of all shards, and he has the only power that grants seeing into the future? Doesn't make sense at all!

[Windrunner he/him]

I'm afraid that's not accurate at all. Electrum allows you to see into your own future. There are also many other examples:

 

Elantris, Warbreaker, & Stormlight Archive Spoilers

Wyrn certainly has an even more powerful type of foresight, allowing him to see weeks in advance. The Returned are allowed to see potential futures that they can alter. Some of Dalinar's visions from Honor have been of potential futures and it has been said that there is a tie between Voidbinding and seeing the future as well.

[Isomere]

We all assume that ruin was very bad at foresight, and there is some evidence for that. However, most speculation of why he was so short sighted falls flat to my eyes. People have said he wants things destroyed NOW and doesn't have the capability of looking ahead. I strongly disagree. Death is the END state of all living things, and that seems to tie ruin into foresight even more strongly than other shards. The allomantic power of Atium further discredits claims that the Intent is opposed to future sight.

So if he could see far into the future, why didnt he? I think Ati chose not to look ahead. We know he was a good man. Hoids letter suggests his Shard ruined him, but are we certain there wasn't still a part of Ati fighting to limit Ruin's reach?

[Claincy he/him]

Was searching for the Q&A to find a reference to my earlier post, then remembered that it was actually on the most up to date allomantic chart. Just read the god metal section in the bottom right.

 

http://mistborn.wikia.com/wiki/File:Table_of_Allomantic_metals.jpg

 

Though we could have told that Atium was mental/temporal just by its effect: It allows you to see slightly into everyone/thing nearby's future and expands your mind to deal with it.

 

 

We all assume that ruin was very bad at foresight, and there is some evidence for that. However, most speculation of why he was so short sighted falls flat to my eyes. People have said he wants things destroyed NOW and doesn't have the capability of looking ahead. I strongly disagree. Death is the END state of all living things, and that seems to tie ruin into foresight even more strongly than other shards. The allomantic power of Atium further discredits claims that the Intent is opposed to future sight.

 

Agreed. Particularly given that we know ruin had patience to wait if he needed too. Even his original deal with preservation was going to be a very very long time before he got his end of the bargain...Which he didn't quite. He waited untold millenium and never got his end of the bargain..that's kind of sad. (Yes I am spending a moment feeling sorry for ruin).

[Windrunner he/him]

Sorry, Isomere, but this quote seems to confirm that it was intrinsic to Ruin's Shard

JAMESW
You said that Preservation created the Terris Prophecies. Why couldn't ruin see into the future and counter Preservation's plan? Is it because Ruin's intent has him focusing more on the present than the future, while Preservation (wanting to preserve forever) looks more into the future for that goal.
BRANDON SANDERSON
Looking into the future was not something Ruin was good at doing. That ability is confined to certain shards, and not others.
Source

[skaa he/him]

Fine. There's no way, however, I buy the fact that atium is a temporal metal. Ruin is (in our current knowledge) the worst at Foresight of all shards, and he has the only power that grants seeing into the future? Doesn't make sense at all!

 

As Windrunner said, other Shards (though perhaps not all of them) could grant temporal powers, not just Ruin. Also, remember that while Atium Allomancers get their power directly from Ruin, they are still using Preservation's system (Allomancy), so it makes sense that not all of Ruin's attributes and limitations would manifest. If you want to see Investiture manifested in the most Ruin-like ("Ruinous"?) form, then you should look at Atium Hemalurgy.

 

As for the godmetal alloy (lerasium-atium), here are my current theories:

 

For an alloy that is more lerasium than atium:

• Allomancy: Turns you into a Seer.
• Feruchemy: Stores ability to store age (Atium Feruchemy), which could then be tapped by another person to turn into an Atium Ferring.
• Hemalurgy: Steals Scadrian Innate Investiture, giving a non-Scadrian person Hemalurgic bindpoints. Possible limitation: the bindpoints received will only accept atium spikes, making the person an "Atium Hemming" (my term ).

 

For an alloy that is more atium than lerasium:

• Allomancy: Turns the next person who touches you into a Seer (he'll basically be stealing the Investiture). This is because atium has an external Allomantic property (affects others, not the user), and I think this property will win out if there is more atium in the alloy.
• Feruchemy: Stores age, which can then be tapped by anyone to turn younger without becoming a ferring.
• Hemalurgy: Steals any Innate Investiture in the Cosmere.

 

I also theorize that alloying an equal amount of atium and lerasium is either impossible (they will refuse to combine), useless (the alloy won't be Allomantic), or extremely dangerous.

Edited July 16, 2013 by skaa

[Claincy he/him]

Interesting ideas. Though about turning you or someone else into a seer. I have always thought that the allomancy granting alloys would only contain small amounts of lerasium compared to the metal it was alloyed with, so as to make it feasible. My general assumption has been requiring a 1/16th the amount of lerasium that it would take to make a full mistborn.

 

Thinking about it that doesn't quite cover it. I guess the amount of lerasium would determine allomantic strength? (I get the feeling that has been confirmed true or false before.) Anyway, would still be guessing that you would need a notably smaller quantity of lerasium in one of those alloys to create a misting of the same strength in that single metal.

[skaa he/him]

I have always thought that the allomancy granting alloys would only contain small amounts of lerasium compared to the metal it was alloyed with, so as to make it feasible. My general assumption has been requiring a 1/16th the amount of lerasium that it would take to make a full mistborn.

 

Could be. I suppose using just a tiny bit of lerasium would make more sense economically-speaking. My theory states that you can have alloys that have more lerasium and alloys that have less.

 

 

By the way, it seems I've contradicted what I've said before about the god metal alloys. My original theory was the exact opposite of what I posted above in terms of which alloy would be external and which would be internal. My bad. I guess now I'll have to ponder which version I prefer.

Edited July 16, 2013 by skaa

[Shardlet he/him]

As to granting hemallurgic bind points to a non-scadrian, I'm pretty sure that the bind points are a normal part of the human physiology which is capitalized by ruin for hemallurgy.  There are, after all, something like 200 or so bind points in the body if I recall correctly.

[skaa he/him]

As to granting hemallurgic bind points to a non-scadrian, I'm pretty sure that the bind points are a normal part of the human physiology which is capitalized by ruin for hemallurgy.

 

Maybe, but I don't think so. Here are some WoB that suggest non-Scadrians would need to do something first before being able to receive Hemalurgic charges:

 

Allomancy, Hemalurgy, Feruchemy are manifestations of this power in mortal form, the ability to touch the powers of creation and use them. These metallic powers are how people's physical forms interpret the use of the Shard, though it's not the only possible way they could be interpreted or used. It's what the genetics and Realmatic interactions of Scadrial allow for, and has to do with the Spiritual, the Cognitive, and the Physical Realms.

Source

 

I interpret that to mean receiving Investiture via Hemalurgic bind points requires Scadrian sDNA. If you don't have that, you'll need to steal it from someone who does (via a lerasium-atium spike, for example).

 

Here's another one:

 

To use Feruchemy or Allomancy in almost every case, one must have the right spiritual and genetic codes, imprinted upon people during the creation of Scadrial by Ati and Leras. To use Hemalurgy, one must first have someone with these right spiritual and genetic codes, then take the power from them. Other people on other worlds are not going to simply discover the Three Metallic Arts by accident.

Source

 

 

The "right spiritual and genetic codes" in the first sentence seems to refer to the Innate Investiture of Scadrians. The same should go for the second sentence as well. Since you need to steal a Scadrian's Innate Investiture to use Hemalurgy, it makes sense that Hemalurgic bind points are tied to Scadrian Innate Investiture.

 

Also, if everyone in the Cosmere had Hemalurgic bind points, they could certainly discover Hemalurgy by accident.

Edited July 16, 2013 by skaa

[Shardlet he/him]

Note though, that the first quote is speaking of all three arts collectively and that hemalurgy  (as well of allomancy and feruchemy) was created as a result of the conditions in which the Shards invested.  This does not speak to bind points. 

 

Especially note the second quote where it says to practice hemalurgy one would need to have someone who had the right spiritual and genetic codes (i.e., an allomancer, feruchemist, or perhaps a Scadrian in general for a more mundane spiking) and then take the power from them.  It does not indicate that the spiker or the spikee need have a particular spiritual or genetic makeup.  The second quote, I think better supports my position I believe.  The bind points have nothing to do, of course, with taking of the power, but rather only apply to transferring a portion of that power to another.

 

Also, there is this from the Q&A:

 

 

Quote

/>
Can Hemalurgy be used to steal Shardblades directly, transferring ownership from the victim to the spike's recipient without a need for the recipient to physically take the Shardblade first?

A novel use of Hemalurgy which is not outside the sphere of its powers.

[skaa he/him]

Note though, that the first quote is speaking of all three arts collectively and that hemalurgy  (as well of allomancy and feruchemy) was created as a result of the conditions in which the Shards invested.  This does not speak to bind points. 

 

Before I continue, I've got to ask: Do you think "bind points" have some purpose other than Hemalurgy? I call them "Hemalurgic bind points" because I believe they only exist in people who can use Hemalurgy (i.e. those who have the "right spiritual and genetic codes" for Hemalurgy). If you think otherwise, then that would explain why you say all non-Scadrians have bind points as well.

 

Anyway, since Hemalurgy is part of what "the genetics and Realmatic interactions of Scadrial allow for", I concluded that you need Scadrian Innate Investiture to use Hemalurgy. And since I also believe (as I stated above) that bind points only exist in people who can use Hemalurgy, I naturally also believe that you need Scadrian Innate Investiture to have bind points. Hence my theory about the use of lerasium-atium alloys in Hemalurgy.

 

 

Especially note the second quote where it says to practice hemalurgy one would need to have someone who had the right spiritual and genetic codes (i.e., an allomancer, feruchemist, or perhaps a Scadrian in general for a more mundane spiking) and then take the power from them.  It does not indicate that the spiker or the spikee need have a particular spiritual or genetic makeup.

 

May I ask how you think a non-Scadrian can "take the power" to use Hemalurgy from someone else? I already have my theory: He can get a lerasium alloy spike, stab a Scadrian with it, then spike himself to create Hemalurgic bind points (modifying his sDNA in the process). Yeah, it sounds paradoxical to say that you have to spike yourself before you can spike yourself, but considering lerasium's role in Allomancy (i.e. you burn this metal to be able to burn metal), I think it fits lerasium's nature perfectly.

 

But if you have an alternative theory, I'm all ears!

 

As for the Shardblade thing, here's how I think you could steal it:

 

     0.  Make sure that you have Hemalurgic bind points. If not, go steal some! Otherwise...

1. Find the correct spike that can steal Shardblades (probably an atium alloy of some sort... or just atium).
2. Stab a Shardbearer through the heart (the usual place that Hemalurgy victims are stabbed). His Shardblade connection (among lots of other things, if you used pure atium) should now be in the spike.

   At this point, the Shardbearer should be dead, and normally the Shardblade should already appear, ready for you to just grab... except your victim was a Herald of the Almighty, and the Honorblade is now in Damnation with him. But no worries!

    

3. Spike yourself in the proper bind point (assuming that you already have bind points).
4. Voila! You've just stolen a Herald's Honorblade! 

Edited July 16, 2013 by skaa

[Shardlet he/him]

My dog (assuming he had the physical dexterity) could spike an allomancer through the heart with a spike to make a hemalurgic spike.  There is no magic on the part of the spiker.  There are not hemalurgist liker there are feruchemists or allomancers.  Hemalurgy is taking a power with a metal spike (of the proper composition) from someone who has power and giving it to someone to give the power or to enhance an existing power.  Some of the power is lost in the transfer (i.e., the recipient does not receive as much power as the donor had) and as such, the art is end-negative.  The trickiest bit is placing the spike in the proper bind point.  But, the bind points are common to all humans (think accupuncture theory). 

 

Note: this is an abbreviated post.  I don't have time to respond in full.

[Isomere]

I interpret that to mean receiving Investiture via Hemalurgic bind points requires Scadrian sDNA. If you don't have that, you'll need to steal it from someone who does (via a lerasium-atium spike, for example).

 

My take: Hemalurgy seems to be able to steal parts of the soul itself. Anything with a soul can be spiked.  Inserting the spike in specific points on the physical body steals different aspects of the soul. "Bind points" are just a way to catalog body-soul correlations in hemalurgy and are loosely based on acupuncture. Essentially there are flowing pathways of spiritual energy that can be accessed at various locations on the body. "Right spiritual and genetic codes" can be any aspect of someone's soul you want to steal and is not limited to the codes on Scadrial. 

 

BRANDON SANDERSON

Hemalurgy crosses magic systems. You could steal things from people on other worlds, if you knew the right places for the spikes. Source

Has Hemalurgy been used on another planet besides Scadrial?

BRANDON SANDERSON

Yes it has. Source

CHAOS

Can Hemalurgy be used to steal magic attributes from any Shardworld?

BRANDON SANDERSON

Hemalurgy has larger ramifications then just Scadrial. That's about all he'd say.

FOOTNOTE

This seems to be similar to what is said in the Ars Arcanum in Alloy of Law Source

VEGASDEV (17 OCTOBER 2008)

Would Hemalurgy work on animals?

BRANDON SANDERSON (17 OCTOBER 2008)

Yes, it would. Source

 

My dog could spike an allomancer through the heart with a spike to make a hemalurgic spike.  There is no magic on the part of the spiker.  

You must have spiked your dog. However, I need more evidence for me to accept this theory. I have never seen anyone without investiture from Ruin create a hemalurgic spike, though it seems Ruin can make them directly. The "random" spikes created in the mistborn series were too carefully arranged to be coincidence. Personally, I believe you need investiture from Ruin and an Identity attuned to him before you can create Spikes. As a side note, tell your dog to beware the Catquisitors and Mistborn Llamas. They spit. 

[skaa he/him]

Just to be clear, I am aware that a Hemalurgist can steal from any person in the Cosmere. That's kind of basic Cosmere info already. What I'm saying is that in order for you to be a Hemalurgist (someone who can spike himself to gain stolen attributes), your body and your spirit should be capable of handling Hemalurgic spikes. I think that's what Brandon meant by needing the "right spiritual and genetic codes". He can't have been talking about "any aspect you want to steal", Isomere, because some steal-able things like Memory (Copper Hemalurgy) are not based on your spiritual or genetic codes. He must have been talking about the power to use Hemalurgy itself.

 

We need to remember basic Realmatic theory here. You can, for example, receive tons of Breath from a Nalthian, but you won't be able to Awaken things without having the proper Investiture to do so. Similarly, you can try spiking yourself with however many Hemalurgic spikes that you can find, but they won't do anything (except injure or kill you) unless you have the proper Investiture to handle them. That's what stealing Innate Investiture is for. And since you need Scadrian Innate Investiture to use Hemalurgy, I reckoned the Hemalurgic bind points are part of that Innate Investiture.

 

To go back on topic, the necessity of stealing Scadrian Innate Investiture in order to steal other things Hemalurgically leads me to my theory about the Hemalurgic property of lerasium-atium. I could be wrong, though. For all I know, Innate Investiture is something only pure atium can steal.