What would Kal's reaction to the bridge crews have been?

[firstRainbowRose she/her]

Assuming Kal had been successful and had taken his people to the Shattered Plains, how do you think he would have reacted to the bridge crews?  In the book it says he would have ended up in Sadeas' army, which means he would have utilized the crews every time he went on a run.

 

He was a very honorable man, and says in the scene where he buys Cenn that he hates to see a life being wasted.

 

What does everyone think?

[Crysanja]

its not like he could have done anything, without being demoted or dead.

this could repeat itselfe, until he cant do anything at all

[Shardlet he/him]

He wouldn't be able to do anything true.  But, his disillusionment would've began long before his first plateau assault.  One of Kal's first observations upon arriving at Sadeas's camp is that it is completely different from what he expected the warcamps to be like.  Disarray, poor discipline, and general laxness.  I think the use of the bridge crews would have been the final straw and he would've deserted or at least not re-upped.  Especially after he figured out the secondary purpose of the bridgemen.

Edited August 3, 2013 by Shardlet

[Gloom he/him]

Kaladin would have ended up on a bridge crew eventually anyway, but he wouldn't have had the life experience to become the man he does. Either that or he would have joined the medics and avoided combat entirely.

[firstRainbowRose she/her]

I am curious to hear support for why you say this.

[little wilson she/her]

Me too. Particularly support for the first part. How is it a certainty that he would've ended up on a bridge crew?

 

Personally, I agree with both Shardlet and Crysanja. The bridge crews would've just been another problem in a long list of problems, but they would also be the one that bugged Kal the most. However, he wouldn't be able to do much. Syl didn't really start making a major impact on him until he was a slave, and I think it was because of the issues he had as a slave, not because of the time that she'd already had with him. So I don't think her little bit of influence on him as soldier would be enough for him to really make a difference and do something to help the bridgemen.

 

And maybe that's what Gloom is referring to. That he'd try, fail, and get thrown into being a bridgeman. I think it's more likely that he would die in the failed attempt though....But maybe not.

Edited August 8, 2013 by little wilson

[IceBaka]

Kaladin's reaction to the bridge crews largely depends on his state when he gets there.  I think Kal would have only arrived at the Shattered Plains with his squad if 1) he had accepted the shards from the unknown shardbearer or 2) the unknown shardbearer had not attacked Amaram's army.

 

If Kal had taken the shards, Amaram would have used him as focal point to rally his troops around during future skirmishes before sending him or accompanying him to the Shattered Plains.  In that case Kal had already lost most of his squad, and he may have lost the interest of Syl (given her dislike of Dalinar's shardblade).  This likely would have influenced his thinking and behavior.  He may not have given the bridge crews much thought.  I highly doubt a shardbearer would end up in a bridge crew.

 

If the shardbearer had never attacked, Kal's squad would have remained mostly intact and he may have held onto Syl's attention.  His integrity would remain largely intact, and he would be appalled by the general state of the warcamp and the despicable use of bridgemen.  He could wind up in a bridge crew if he rebels at the lack of honor exhibited by the Alethi forces.

[Gloom he/him]

How do you get put on a Bridge Crew? You are brought in as a slave, or you piss off a light-eyes soldier, he was in Sadeas camp, so he was bound to end up in trouble. There were soldiers put on the crews as a form of corporal punishment. I figure Kaladin would either try to administer aid to the bridge crew survivors, or try to help them escape. Either way he would be right back where he ended up anyway.

 

little wilson got it on one. Without Kaladins experiences as a slave, and the time spent on introspection and self analysis, I don't believe that Kaladin would have had progressed nearly as quickly on the path to becoming a Knight Radiant as he did. He was at the cusp before he was assigned as a bridge runner, so if he was any further behind the curve, he'd have been a pin cushion like all the other bridgemen.

[Crysanja]

i think if Kaladin would have taken the shard, he would have been a bright-lord, propably higher in rank then amaram.

im not even sure he would need to stay with this army at all.

 

 

about the dieing bridge crews.

Kaladin sees alot more ppl dieing without proper training in his service before beeing a slave.

i would even go as far as to say, there were more dieing then at the bridge crews by shattered plains.

 

dont think he would desert over this either, he would have been much more focused on his own squad anyways,

because its his life to keep them alive. we never saw him care about other squads, just about some new recruits.

 

he was allways trying to make things better for his ppl, not the ppl.

[Lateralus]

In regards to the posts saying 'he couldn't have done anything"...

Just look at what he was able to accomplish as a bridgeman, with barely any money or freedom, and death waiting around every turn.

Just imagine what he could have done with more resources. His value of life is too strong to allow for the wanton slaughter of bridgemen, regardless of whether he was one.

[Shardlet he/him]

Yeah, I think that even as a regular spearman you would have to do more than piss off a light-eyes to get thrown into a bridge crew.  I got the impression that it was a pretty severe punishment for a regular.  As a shardbearer, Kaladin would have had a lot more leeway given to him as well as greater influence and capability to protect.  It is entirely possible that be could put forth a strategy simlar to Dalinar's where he leaps the chasm ahead of the bridges and makes a hole.  He could also draw their fire or at least distract the archers.  All of these things would have allowed Kaladin some capability to continue on his protect path.  If Kaladin took the shards, I don't see them changing who Kaladin is and causing him to become callous and jaded.

[Gloom he/him]

Granted, were Kal to accept the shards, he wouldn't have ended up a bridgeman, but I personally feel he would have lost the attention of Syl as well. So Kaladin would be a Shardbearer, but he may never have become a Windrunner. Why do I think he would have lost Syl? Several reasons actually. She doesn't like Shards, Kal would have made a decision that would have compromised his honor by accepting those Shards in his own eyes, and people would have no longer looked at him as special, they would have just saw him as another Shardbearer. It was the way people looked at him that drew SIl. Kal would have still been honorable, but it would have been more along the lines of the Alethi code of honor, which isn't the same thing.

[happyman he/him]

This is an interesting question.

 

Especially because I heard Brandon once say that there was a character in the first version of Way of Kings which made a very different choice at the beginning than the one they make in the current version, and that it changed everything about the development of the book, especially their character arc.

 

I've always assumed that was Kaladin and the Shards.  I can totally see how making a different decision there would have changed everything.  Including the entirety of the arc in Way of Kings.

 

But this also suggests that becoming a Knight Radiant may have been in the offing, even so.  Which isn't to say that Brandon can't decide "That was a terrible idea.  Kaladin should never have taken the Shards.  Let's do some world-building around it."  I'm just not certain how central the conceit is to the book.

[Gloom he/him]

This makes me wonder. People have speculated about the outcome of Kaladin meeting Amaram again, and what may occur. I'm wondering what will happen when Kaladin meets Restares again. If Restares is who people believe he is....yes, a very interesting meeting.

[little wilson she/her]

Wait. "When Kaladin meets Restares again"? Has Kaladin met Restares? I didn't think he had.... I know some people think Restares is Taravangian, but I don't perscribe to that particular theory. Yet. I'm immensely curious who Restares is, and I don't think Kaladin will be too thrilled when he does meet him, but honestly, I'm more waiting for the Amaram meeting. Mostly to see Amaram's look of "Oh, holy shiz."

[Gloom he/him]

When Kaladin was branded, Restares was the stormwarden that actually did the branding. Or that is my take on it anyway. If this isn't the case, I don't see how Amaram would have had time to consult with Restares about the best way to handle the Shardblade that Kaladin took from the Vedan.

 

It took hours to decide, but Restares is right--this is what must be done. For the good of Alethkar."

"it's not about Alethkar! It's about you! Storm it, you're supposed to be better than the others!" Tears dripped from Kaladin's chin.

[little wilson she/her]

Eh. Maybe. There's always spanreeds though. It's not like Amaram says he talked to Restares in person. However, I'm more likely to believe the stormwarden idea than Taravangian. Just because when I first read that part, I took it as the Stormwarden. Wasn't til I remembered Gavilar mentioning Restares that it occurred to me it probably wasn't a Stormwarden. Or at least not one in Amaram's army. If Restares is a Stormwarden, he'd be high enough ranking to be at the Shattered Plains already. I'm pretty sure.

That said, I don't think we've even met Restares yet. But that's not relevant to this discussion..... :-)

[Gloom he/him]

Okay, I'll grant that if Amaram knows about the Ghostbloods, he probably has a spanreed. But this Stormwarden is placed high enough that Amaram speaks freely with him about both the ghostbloods and Thaidakar.

 

Amaram was talking to one of his stormwardens, a middle-aged man with a square beard and robes of deep black.

'...why Thaidakar would risk this?" Amaram was saying, speaking in a soft voice. "But who else would it be? The Ghostbloods grow more bold. We'll need to find out who he was. Do we know anything about him?"

"He was Vedan, Brightlord," the stormwarden said. "Nobody I recognize. But I will investigate."

 

He is also privy to Amarams betrayal of Kaladin. He is trusted as a confidant, not a sworn man. He is involved in international politics, and the affairs of the princes. He may not be Restares, but he isn't a common Stormwarden either. It is even possible that Restares, if it was Restares, was in the camp specifically to witness the Shardbearers attack. A Stormwarden makes a perfect spy because they are welcome everywhere, so a high ranking Stormwarden wouldn't necessarily be on the Shattered Plains. From what I gather about Restares, he is deeply involved in the shadowy underworld of politics. Posing as a stormwarden is an excellent way to travel without drawing attention.

[Shardlet he/him]

I am very interested in the role and status of the stormwardens.  The only thing we have expressly said in TWoK is that they predict the highstorms.  But they also seem to frequently act in an advisory capacity.  They are educated men, so I suspect that they are ardents.  If that is correct then they are essentially property of their associated brightlord.  The darkeyes, at least, appear to be rather leery of them since they "predict the future".  But, how are they viewed by the light-eyed population at large?  The high ranking brightlords appear to rely upon them (and trust them) a lot.  Taravangian relies on them and trusts them to restrict his actions according to how Taravangian is 'feeling' that day.   

[Gaelan he/him]

Something importan here

 

 They are educated men, so I suspect that they are ardents. 

Something important here too, it's clearly said in TWoK (from a Dalinar's PoV) that the Stormwardens use gliphs in their books, which no one has done before and Dalinar thinks it's something quite disturbing. But if I'm not wrong, the ardents have already the social acceptacion for reading and writing, so in case that my memory isn't failing, writing in glyphs wouldn't be necessary for them.

[Gloom he/him]

They are educated men, so I suspect that they are ardents.

There are many professions open to men with a good mind and training. If you really wished to study all the arts, you could become an ardent. Or perhaps a stormwarden."

Tvlakv had almost missed getting ready for this highstorm. Apparently, the map Kaladin had torn up had also included a list of highstorm dates purchased from a roving stormwarden.

Okay, Stormwardens are not ardents, nor are they owned. They do often take positions within noble houses, but they are also free to come and go to some extent. Galivar had stormwardens, Dalimar has stormwardens, etc. The stormwardens of a high prince are likely allowed to travel to different holds amongst the princedom without supervision, meaning they could go where ever they pleased within reason because everyone has need of their ability to predict the highstorms.

[Shardlet he/him]

I think you are making some leaps there Gloom.  The first quote definitely suggests that stormwardens aren't ardents.  After I wrote the post, I reconsidered given the Vorin antipathy for anything even resembling predicting the future (e.g., gambling).  However, the existance of roving stormwardens does not really lead to a lot of things you are suggesting.  I see stormwardens as being essentially house retainers.  I expect (hope) that we will get a clearer picture in WoR.

[Gloom he/him]

I think you are making some leaps there Gloom. 

 

Yup, I'm definitely making some leaps. We don't really know enough about stormwardens to make any real arguments. I'm just trying to establish that it's feasible that being a stormwarden is a good cover for a spy or conspirator. Seeing one on the road isn't unheard of, and they are common in the great houses. A stormwarden doesn't take a vow of poverty, so they can enjoy the fruits of their misdeeds without raising undue suspicion.