Creating Humans

[Wyrmhero he/him]

There are really two questions here, which I have lumped together because the second depends on the first. They aren't theories, as such, more questions that I think are interesting to consider the consequences of.

I've read all of the published Cosmere novels, but knowing myself as I do, I've probably missed obvious things which will bring it crashing down my ears. It's mainly to see if anyone knows of any contradictions, and what they think on the subjects.

 

In real life, what we call 'humans' are, biologically, nothing more than a load of physics which builds into chemistry which builds into biology. Free will and so on are regarded by many scientists to be an illusion that we give ourselves. This is solved by Realmatic Theory, in the Cosmere - a 'thing' is defined by what sees itself as a thing, rather than the collection of tiny atoms that builds it up.

However, this leads to the question of what a thing is, exactly. Two small ingots of metal would consider themselves separate, but if they were melted together, chemically bonded so they were inseparable, it'd just be a single larger ingot. In the same way, cells in the human body are mere cells, until they are joined together to make a human.

Therefore, there is some point where a body considers itself to be crossing the boundary between being seperate and being one. So the question is with regards to cloning and things such as IVF treatment in Scadrial. Would these beings see themselves as whole thing? I'm asking because of Ati and Leras. They had to invest humans in order to create them and give them the illusion of free will.

Therefore, in the Cosmere, would such treatments be able exist, particularly for humans? Or would the cells that were used to make them be considered Invested, despite the fact they don't see themselves as part of a human at first? For that matter, are all humans Invested in a small way, and is it active or applied to anything 'human'? I can't recall it being mentioned aside from with Scadrial's and Nalthis's.

 

Secondly, (and I hope I won't be shot for drawing comparisons here) during my weekly Warhammer 40K Rogue Trader session, I had a thought regarding the WH40K Sevitors, which are essentially cyborg robots for those who don't know what they are. They are designed to perform a few simple tasks, have no capability for independant thought, and are either 'grown' or made from criminals.

So my thoughts here are regarding Hemalurgy. It allows you to store a part of a person's spiritual identity, depending on the metal, and 'inject' it into someone else as long as they are spiked. Do we think it might be possible to give hemalurgic properties to objects like that? Could it be possible to give a machine a soul?

In particular, would it be possible to create a humanoid structure (robot or golem, depending on how fantasy you want it to be), and spike it to make a robot with a soul?

 

EDIT: I've realised I've completely forgotten about Awakened objects, solely concentrating on Hemalurgy in this latter case. So, what might be the effect of spiking an Awakened object? Could you get the breaths out of it and plant them into someone else if the spike was empty? The object doesn't have the ability to follow anything other than basic commands, but if you added a portion of someone's soul to it, might it obtain a measure of 'free will'?

Edited August 23, 2013 by Wyrmhero

[Shardlet he/him]

Welcome to the forums Wyrmhero!  Glad to have you with us.

 

As to your first question.  Scadrian investiture is passed genetically.  So in the case of IVF, you have a sperm and an egg which combine and and develop according to genetic instructions.  This formed embryo is then implanted in the womb of a human female where it continues to grow and develop, etc.  To make a long story short, it would naturally have the proper investiture since the investiture is passed genetically.  Personally I can't subscribe to the fre will is an illusion idea.  It doesn't make any sense to me. 

 

As to the hemalurgy question, hemalurgy could only spike a machine if it had hemalurgic bindpoints.  These bindpoints are a natural part of human physiology.  They would have to be intentionally created in a machine I would think, though I don't know how they could be created. 

 

As to spiking the breaths from an awakened object, I doubt it.  Spiking the breaths from a human, I bet there is a way.  But when spiking a traight from someone a spike is driven through their heart.  I am unsure how that would apply to an awakened object.

[Wyrmhero he/him]

Yeah, I guess I was thinking about the free will thing in far too much of a scientific manner for a fantasy series. Particularly when Sanderson is religious himself, and so wouldn't believe such a thing either.

It does make me wonder though if you could doctor an embryo's spiritual DNA before they were implanted, like we can currently perform some genetic alterations. It would almost definitely end up as Mistborn for the rich, much like there are fears of people 'designing' their babies, but it's still an interesting thought.

 

I must admit, I'm not all that clued up on Hemalurgy, and my copies of Mistborn are away from me at the moment. I wasn't aware you had to spike through the heart, I thought it just had to kill. I had actually thought of spiking machines when considering space travel, and whether you could give limited sentience to the spaceship, or whether you could make it burn metals. I supppose it's a fanciful idea that we have no information on whatsoever

 

I do still wonder if you can spike animals, and they have their own bindpoints that no-one ever bothered researching (hey, they're animals, why bother?), or for that matter, whether you can spike Lifeless humans. They might be dead, but they are at least moving again. I know you can't spike dead people to retroactively draw their powers, but Lifeless might slip under that radar thanks to the Breath inside them. They even have something inside them that acts like blood, if they don't have blood itself in poorly made ones. They'd be pretty useless for combat, since Lifeless Allomancers/Feruchemists would probably not be intelligent enough to adapt in a fight, but for menial tasks they would be good.

[Satsuoni he/him]

Hmm, Hemalurgy is one of my favorite topics, so here is some insight (sorry about lack of links, bad Satsu and all that. The facts below were confirmed by Brandon, as far as I can tell.)

1. You don't have to kill to charge the spike. However, driving spike through heart is the only known way to charge it so far, and it does kill. In either case, part of the soul is ripped off, so even if the person survives, he is never the same.

2. We were told that people from Southern Continent (south pole of Scadrial in Mistborn trilogy) use Metallic Arts in "more mechanic" way, whatever that means, so golems may be a possibility.

3. A person is viable Hemalurgic donor from conception. Spiking embryos is thus a valid way of getting powers... except that you can't really tell if an embryo has Metallic art or not (identical twins may not have the same power)

4. Animals (specifically cats. Feles Regirent!) can receive powers from spikes, and even gain sentience in that way.

5. You can steal a Shardblade with a spike.

6. In fact, everything encoded in soul can be stolen by a spike.

7. It is, however, unknown whether or not Scadrian sDNA is necessary to be either donor or acceptor. Anybody can perform the spiking itself. It remains a possibility that you may, for example, need to use Atium spike for non-Scadrian powers, but that is just speculation.

8. Spike-given powers affect sDNA of your potential children. For example, Inquisitor's child would have slightly higher probability of having Metallic Arts, but there may be... complications.

 

So far, directed spirit manipulations include spiking and stamps, and stamps are non-permanent, so, while you may be able to spike an embryo, there is no known method to add powers without leaving spikes in, which would probably not be healthy.

As for Lifeless, I don't know. They may be able to serve as acceptor, and may even gain full sentience like Kandra (Brandon has mentioned that Lifeless are relatively close to sentience, IIRC). But that is speculation.

[Shardlet he/him]

It does make me wonder though if you could doctor an embryo's spiritual DNA before they were implanted, like we can currently perform some genetic alterations. It would almost definitely end up as Mistborn for the rich, much like there are fears of people 'designing' their babies, but it's still an interesting thought.

 

I must admit, I'm not all that clued up on Hemalurgy, and my copies of Mistborn are away from me at the moment. I wasn't aware you had to spike through the heart, I thought it just had to kill. I had actually thought of spiking machines when considering space travel, and whether you could give limited sentience to the spaceship, or whether you could make it burn metals. I supppose it's a fanciful idea that we have no information on whatsoever

 

I do still wonder if you can spike animals, and they have their own bindpoints that no-one ever bothered researching (hey, they're animals, why bother?), or for that matter, whether you can spike Lifeless humans. They might be dead, but they are at least moving again. I know you can't spike dead people to retroactively draw their powers, but Lifeless might slip under that radar thanks to the Breath inside them. They even have something inside them that acts like blood, if they don't have blood itself in poorly made ones. They'd be pretty useless for combat, since Lifeless Allomancers/Feruchemists would probably not be intelligent enough to adapt in a fight, but for menial tasks they would be good.

 

I would expect that altering physical DNA would unable to grant allomancy, etc. since these are a result of one's sDNA (spiritual-DNA).  But, we know so little about it that I could very well be wrong.

 

As Satsuoni pointed out, we know very little (virtually nothing actually) about how the southern continent uses the metallic arts.  So anything we come up with is speculation since we have such a thin evidence base.

 

As to the lifeless, I doubt it would work. 

I know there is some suggestion that a bit of Arsteel remains (in that he obeys and responds to what's-her-bucket better than he does to Denth and Tonk-Fah.

But, it is hard to get past hemalurgy's name.  The 'hema' in hemalurgy refers to blood, whether that is the requirement for the donor, the recipient, or both, I don't know.  But my suspicion is both.  I suppose it depends on whether the alcohol ichor could provide the same function as blood.  Although, in Warbreaker, it seems to only for making a longer lasting lifeless (embalming fluid?).  I may be remembering wrong.

[Pechvarry]

I don't have time to read this whole thread in its entirety right now, so I'm just responding to the OP right now:

I would like to mention the Kandra/Mistwraith connection to your sentient robots. If I follow it correctly, Mistwraiths are essentially humans with no cognitive aspect and a seriously messed up physical aspect. Essentially, they're soulless vats of flesh... with bind points. Thus, a Kandra is more of an organic machine, creating a decent workaround for hemalurgic sentient robots.

Edited August 27, 2013 by Pechvarry

[Shardlet he/him]

I am inclined to disagree with you about mistwraiths being essentially humans.  Though the original mistwraiths were once human (Terrisman, of course), they were completely changed to a new species by TLR.  They breed true as mistwraiths and have limited sentience until spiked.  (It appears that, given the nature of their bodies, their entire body is a giant bindpoint or they have an instinctual knowledge of where to put the spikes in their bodies).  They are no longer human in any way.  The fact that they tend to emulate humans in appearance is more likely due to their view of TLR as their father and their key purpose involving direct interaction with humans.  Soulless, I think, is a mischaracterization.  Their sentience is limited, largely acting on instinct.  But that does not make them soulless.  Their individuality is enhanced by the spikes, not sourced from the spikes.  TenSoon would still be TenSoon and MeLaan would still be MeLaan even if they were to switch spikes.  TenSoon did not become more like Oreseur or gain any direct insight into Oreseur because he took up Oreseur's spikes. 

[Pechvarry]

The humanity thing is semantics, so I'll ignore that. As for soulless,perhaps it's better to say their soul is a blank slate as far as defining characteristics goes. But maybe I'm right and perhaps their spiritual aspect is as strong as a tree's.

As for TenSoon... Isn't it interesting that Oresuer took a contract against The Father? Isn't it interesting that TenSoon went from the ideal Fifth to the greatest heretic his people had ever seen?

All conjecture. My only point is that perhaps mistwraiths are little more than fleshy robots, proving the OP's theory... In a way.

[Shardlet he/him]

The individual character of each Kandra speaks against their soul being a blank slate.  I think a comparison to an animal would be more apt than to a tree. 

 

While Oreseur took the contract, it was made clear that KanPaar and the other 2nds were involved.  TenSoon evolved from near open disdain for Vin to steadfast loyalty due to getting to know her and made his subsequent choices based upon those experiences.  While some of his arguments before the 2nds were rationalizations after the fact, others were his genuine beliefs. 

 

cough*third generation*cough  .

 

As to being fleshy robots, before and after spiking, the mistwraiths/kandra act according to their will or by instinct (finding food, etc.).  Also, being biological entities somewhat divorces them from the idea of the OP.  Though the Kandra follow the contract and the first contract, it is clear that that they have the ability to choose not to.  The very existence of the prison cells and the established trial and punishment procedures indicates that they act according to contract by choice as influenced by social convention.  The betrayal by the seconds was an act of rebellion against the firsts in an effort to retain power and authority.  These are all acts of choice rather than acts of instructions or programming.

[GreyPilgrim he/him]

As for TenSoon... Isn't it interesting that Oresuer took a contract against The Father? Isn't it interesting that TenSoon went from the ideal Fifth to the greatest heretic his people had ever seen?

This could have been influenced by all of the time that TenSoon spent emulating OreSeur. For several months, maybe even close to a year (sorry its been a while since I read WoA) he had to spend a huge portion of his time acting as OreSeur would and listening to people who had resisted the Lord Ruler. I don't think that can be attributed in any way to his having OreSeur's Blessing. It was simply the ideological evolution of a sentient being.

[Windrunner he/him]

Mistwraiths have a totally fine Cognitive aspect, there is simply a blockage that doesn't allow it to work well in the Physical Realm. Brandon likened it to someone with a mental disability.

[Satsuoni he/him]

As Windrunner said.

Here is the quote:

NinjaMeTimbers

How intelligent is a mistwraith? Could you raise and train mistwraiths like dogs or horses, controlling what forms they take by the bones you give them? Would you be able to train yourself a horsewraith steed by giving it only the bones of a horse?

Brandon Sanderson

This is feasible. One thing to keep in mind is that mistwraiths are people who have a blockage between the physical and the cognitive realm, messing with their ability to think. Think of them as mentally-stunted people. There's enough there to train, but then you have to dig into the ethics of it...

This is possibly not dissimilar to the way Nahel bond gives sentience to the Spren - Syl regains at least some of her memories from the bindings before, and her personality seems largely independent from Kaladin's.

[Pechvarry]

The individual character of each Kandra speaks against their soul being a blank slate.  I think a comparison to an animal would be more apt than to a tree.

Mistwraiths, not Kandra. I am postulating if you could introduce Spiritweb Bind Points to an inanimate object, spiking those points would provide sentience in the same manner that mistwraiths become Kandra.

If this is such a large sticking point, it should be discussed in a different thread instead of derailing the OP. I only wanted to provide a parallel.