How we refer to Honor

[Vortaan he/him]

I've noticed around these parts we tend to refer to Honor, and the intent behind it, as something similar to a code of honor, or acting honorable. However, many other Shards don't work that way.

 

When the discussion turns to Preservation or Ruin, for example, the verbs preserve and ruin tend to be used, because that is what those Shards are actively trying to do. Very similar phrasing comes with Cultivation, Odium, Endowment, Dominion, and Devotion... but not Honor. We don't talk about Honor honoring or causing people to honor things more. We talk about a very narrow band of the definition. Any thoughts as to why?

[Moogle]

The problem, to me, is that honor is subjective. Preservation and ruin are words with physical meanings. They can be interpreted in myriad ways, but ultimately it's very hard to look at someone destroying the universe and say "That's an example of preservation!".

 

Contrast that with honor. Honor killings are all about preserving a family's honor, but I doubt Kaladin would find the concept in line with what he thinks 'honor' is. I thought for the longest time that honor was an objective concept in the Cosmere thanks to Honor existing; he was an external baseline with which you could see if you were honorable.

 

Then of course Brandon let it slip that people's views influenced spren, and this would include honorspren. This muddies the waters considerably, and I am not sure how Honor fits into things anymore. If an insane murderer thinks of himself as honorable (Szeth, I'm looking at you...), and can convince the people around him that he is (Syl mentioned that what other people thought was important, and this fits in line with how Gold Feruchemy healing works), then can this murderer attract an honorspren? Apparently.

 

This is all a very long way of saying that I think your question is a good one and I have no idea!

 

Odium also does not fit.

[Azul he/him]

Odium is hate seems to be pretty straight forward.   As for Honor if I had to boil it down I would say its all about obligation, agreements and respect.  So not just keeping your word but also having others respect you for it.  We see this in both Kaladin and Dalinar.  Syl even makes a comment that she is happy that Kaladin kept his word to Gaz when he paid him the bribe.

[Gloom he/him]

I would speculate that Honor is about bonds. The bond of your word, the bonds between men, the bond of matrimony, etc. Honorspren bind things, and a large part of being honorable is being trustworthy. Lets take Szeth for example since he was already mentioned. For Szeth to attract honorspren, he would have to have people who were devoted to him, but he would have to be devoted to them in return. Honor is mutual understanding, trust, and faith in each other. For the honorable it is a two way street.

[Kadrok she/her]

I would speculate that Honor is about bonds. The bond of your word, the bonds between men, the bond of matrimony, etc. Honorspren bind things, and a large part of being honorable is being trustworthy. Lets take Szeth for example since he was already mentioned. For Szeth to attract honorspren, he would have to have people who were devoted to him, but he would have to be devoted to them in return. Honor is mutual understanding, trust, and faith in each other. For the honorable it is a two way street.

 

What a fascinating idea. Assuming your perspective, I wonder if a Duralumin Ferring with the proper investiture to bond with an honourspren could use his Feruchemy to cheat his way into bonding an honourspren. Duralumin, afterall, stores connectedness to others, and tapping huge amounts of Duralumin has the effect of making "anyone you spend a few minutes speaking to in a friendly manner feels a strong connection to you, as if they’ve known you for years. Old acquaintances suddenly feel as if you’re their closest friend. Likewise, you have difficulty betraying anyone other than a sworn enemy — or anyone you’re speaking with at the moment." and tapping even more makes you: "the object of absolute devotion by all but sworn enemies. Most will lay down their lives at your word, and happily submit to your every wish — as will you for them." (MAG 346).

 

 

EDIT: And now it's a theory in the cosmere section! Thank you for the inspiration Gloom!

Edited August 25, 2013 by Kadrok

[Vortaan he/him]

So Honor cares about the noun honor, not the verb? Renarim, for example, honoring Dalinar as much as he does doesn't matter much to the Intent of the Shard? What about Sadeas honoring his promise by stabbing Dalinar in the back?

[GreyPilgrim he/him]

/>Honor killings are all about preserving a family's honor, but I doubt Kaladin would find the concept in line with what he thinks 'honor' is. I thought for the longest time that honor was an objective concept in the Cosmere thanks to Honor existing; he was an external baseline with which you could see if you were honorable.

Then of course Brandon let it slip that people's views influenced spren, and this would include honorspren.

I stated in another thread my idea that different types of honorspren make one of a particular Order of the Knights Radiant. We know that Syl resembled a windspren. Her Nahel bond with Kaladin made him a Windrunner. Coincidence? I think not. By this logic, an honorspren that looks like a stonespren (not sure this exists) could make one a Stoneward, etc.

I am not saying that Kaladin became a Windrunner because he thought Syl was a windspren. Rather, I think Syl resembles a windspren because she was attracted to his ideal of honor. We know that one of the Windrunner ideals is "I will help those who cannot help themselves." This is perfectly in line with Kaladin's practices and idea of honor. Syl passes by, thinks "Wow this guy is totally a Windrunner", she shifts to look like a windspren, Kaladin goes "Wow this windspren is creepily attracted to me" then comes to like her and bang he's a Windrunner.

So are there ten different ideals or ways to perceive honor in the cosmere, stemming from ten different aspects of Honor?

[Kurkistan he/him]

@Moogle

 

Nice thoughts. However, I don't think concepts of honor are quite so malleable as you fear. I doubt Dexter would get an honorspren.

 

I would propose that "Honor" so far as the Shard and its magic goes is tied up in some near-universal concept of Honor that is not open to being manipulated on any local level. This conception may well flow from Tanavast's idea of honor, though I think it very likely that some "Form" of Honor (shameless plug) is heavily involved (though perhaps influenced, in turn, by Tanavast).

 

*Mistborn Spoilers*

 

TLR referred to himself as a god in his dying words and had an entire planet (mostly) going along with him, and yet still he aged. So he couldn't even alter his own Cognitive aspect such that aging was not the cards for him. I doubt, then, that a serial killer could manipulate something like Honor on even a personal level, let alone a regional one.

Edited August 25, 2013 by Kurkistan

[Kurkistan he/him]

Maybe it's whatever the Shardholder think fits into that ideal of honor and chivalry, etc.

 

That is a possibility, as I suggested.

 

Again the question remains though: why does Honor focus more on the noun honor than the verb? Kaladin doesn't honor something, he acts in accordance with his own code of honor. I suppose you could say he is honoring life, or his men, but it doesn't seem to fit. Preservation Preserves, Ruin Ruins, Cultivation Cultivates... what does Honor honor? If Honor is honoring honor... that just makes my head hurt.

 

I don't think we need be so focused on what the Shard's "do", versus what they are. They embody their Intents, I would think, and so should act accordingly per each Intent. So Honor should act like a perfectly honorable person with god-like power because that's what he is. His magic system values those who embody honor as well, it would seem.

 

The cosmic, non-relative version of Honor may end up being morally irrelevant. After all, in the last vision Honor tells Dalinar that he misses the people fighting against the Desolations, with everyone united in purpose. Those were near-genocidal wars wiping out most of the humans on the planet, and presumably most of the Parshendi too. He misses them.

I'm really anti-honor though, ever since I read Wikipedia's page contrasting honor to justice. I see Roshar as hopeless, unless it can merge some of its Shards into new forms. Odium can at least be part of justice, in how we view criminals and other abusers, but honor is a sloppy alternative to justice that only gets in the way. If no one can fix it, this planet is doomed to an eternity of war culture and brutality.

 

I do think you're being a tad harsh on Tanavast. He can miss the unity and purpose that the old time brought without missing the death and suffering that accompanied it. People laud the unity present in times of war or calamity all the time without us assuming that they think either state of affairs is desirable.

 

[...] ( I really do need to switch to an ebooks, it will make things so much easier, but I love physical books too much. Until then, I can't access the books readily 100% of the time.) [...]

 

No! Stick with the physical book! It's better!  (especially Stormlight books, due the the interior artwork).

 

I actually did a shamefully wasteful thing and got both: I picked up the eBook when it was on sale for $3 on Amazon. It has been useful for theorizing.

Edited August 25, 2013 by Kurkistan

[Vortaan he/him]

Again the question remains though: why does Honor focus more on the noun honor than the verb? Kaladin doesn't honor something, he acts in accordance with his own code of honor. I suppose you could say he is honoring life, or his men, but it doesn't seem to fit. Preservation Preserves, Ruin Ruins, Cultivation Cultivates... what does Honor honor? If Honor is honoring honor... that just makes my head hurt.

[Gamma Fiend he/him]

Maybe it's whatever the Shardholder think fits into that ideal of honor and chivalry, etc.

[GreyPilgrim he/him]

No! Stick with the physical book! It's better! (especially Stormlight books, due the the interior artwork).

I actually did a shamefully wasteful thing and got both: I picked up the eBook when it was on sale for $3 on Amazon. It has been useful for theorizing.

I will probably do the same for that very reason. Glad to see I'm not the only one who prefers physical books in this day and age.

[GreyPilgrim he/him]

Maybe it has to do with what Gloom said before about bonds. Maybe Honor and things of Honor (i.e. honorspren, see my post above) are attracted to people who act to some ideal or form of honor and honor that honor by creating a bond.

[hoser he/him]

I am not saying that Kaladin became a Windrunner because he thought Syl was a windspren. Rather, I think Syl resembles a windspren because she was attracted to his ideal of honor. We know that one of the Windrunner ideals is "I will help those who cannot help themselves." This is perfectly in line with Kaladin's practices and idea of honor. Syl passes by, thinks "Wow this guy is totally a Windrunner", she shifts to look like a windspren, Kaladin goes "Wow this windspren is creepily attracted to me" then comes to like her and bang he's a Windrunner.

What an amazing creative concept! 

 

I do have trouble reconciling it with my understanding of the book however, so please help me reconcile it with my understanding of the book. 

 

It sounds like you are suggesting that there is one base honorspren that can adapt to ten different concepts of honor, depending on which they see exemplified first. 

 

Nohadon, referring to binding spren, said something like "not all spren are as discerning as honorspren".  This suggests that honorspren are inherently different from other binding spren.  Is he wrong or am I misinterpreting?

 

I think we are seeing two types of binding spren: Syl and Cryptics.  Syl, a year into being bonded, is still figuring out what she is doing. The Cryptics seem to understand the bonding process from the start.  

 

Chapter 14 has the following sequence:

"I don't know. I can't remember anything farther back than about a year ago, when I first saw you."

"Really?"

"That's not odd," Syl said, ... "Most spren don't have long memories." ... "I don't know why I know that"

...

"But if I were to lose these memories..." She glanced into the air , and Kaladin traced her movements, noting a pair of windspren darting through the sky on a gusting breeze, uncaring and free. 

I read this as implying that without the bond and associated memories, Syl would regress to windspren behavior. 

An interpretation of this is that there are spren with long memories.  Spren with the additional Shardic investment to create the Nahel bond seem like candidates for spren with memories.  The Cryptics seem like prime candidates to be spren w/long memories and hence inherently different from Syl. 

 

Windrunner (an authority second only to Zas, in my estimation) quoted word of Brandon to the effect that Syl is similar to windspren.  I don't see the Cryptics being similar to windspren, so, if true, this seems further evidence that not all bonding spren are inherently the same. 

 

At the Recreance vision, there seemed to be almost exactly 150 of each of the two orders of Radiants.  I can see Honor and/or Cultivation investing 150 of each of 10 types of spren.  If they just invested 1500 spren and the characteristics of who the spren saw determined Radiantness, I think the orders would have different numbers of members. 

So are there ten different ideals or ways to perceive honor in the cosmere, stemming from ten different aspects of Honor?

Maybe.  I basically agree, but, in my view, some of the spren could have ideals from Cultivation.  Syl's way of selecting Kal seems very honor-based.  Other bonding spren could choose differently, particularly if some are more Cultivation-based. 

Edited August 25, 2013 by hoser

[Morsk he/him]

The cosmic, non-relative version of Honor may end up being morally irrelevant. After all, in the last vision Honor tells Dalinar that he misses the people fighting against the Desolations, with everyone united in purpose. Those were near-genocidal wars wiping out most of the humans on the planet, and presumably most of the Parshendi too. He misses them.

I'm really anti-honor though, ever since I read Wikipedia's page contrasting honor to justice. I see Roshar as hopeless, unless it can merge some of its Shards into new forms. Odium can at least be part of justice, in how we view criminals and other abusers, but honor is a sloppy alternative to justice that only gets in the way. If no one can fix it, this planet is doomed to an eternity of war culture and brutality.

[Vortaan he/him]

I don't think we need be so focused on what the Shard's "do", versus what they are. They embody their Intents, I would think, and so should act accordingly per each Intent. So Honor should act like a perfectly honorable person with god-like power because that's what he is. His magic system values those who embody honor as well, it would seem.

 

 

This doesn't seem to change the fact that a Shard's Intent and it's actions tend to coincide. Ruin... ya know, Ruined things. Endowment Endows people. Preservation Preserved people. Harmony... makes really awesome acapella music. What does/did Honor Honor, and how does that affect how honorspren work?

[GreyPilgrim he/him]

hoser: Thank you for the feedback. It is really just an idea that came to me randomly at one point, and I've tried to flesh it out a bit. I'm still really new here, so I'm not quite accustomed to backing up my ideas beyond general evidence. What you've provided seems to debunk my a bit, but I'll reconsider it with that. (I've still yet to reread the book, so I have never really looked for those specific details before.)

It sounds like you are suggesting that there is one base honorspren that can adapt to ten different concepts of honor, depending on which they see exemplified first. 

 

That is basically it. It could be that they can rebond to make different types of Radiants later, though.

 

Nohadon, referring to binding spren, said something like "not all spren are as discerning as honorspren".  This suggests that honorspren are inherently different from other binding spren.  Is he wrong or am I misinterpreting?

 

I don't remember that particular bit, and don't have access to it now, but it sounds like you're right.

 

That's possible about there being two types of binding spren, Syl and Crytics. I have never really been able to see the Cryptics as binding spren though. I think we should wait for Shallan to Soulcast again, to see if she needs to provide some other truth. When she did so, to me, seemed to be like the great bond that was made, and she may not have to do that again. I will take a closer look at some point. ( I really do need to switch to an ebooks, it will make things so much easier, but I love physical books too much. Until then, I can't access the books readily 100% of the time.) You're probably closer on all this than I am.

 

On Syl being related to windspren, this could be because, as my idea goes, she literally has changed to become something like a windspren. It might go no deeper than that.

 

At the Recreance vision, there seemed to be almost exactly 150 of each of the two orders of Radiants.  I can see Honor and/or Cultivation investing 150 of each of 10 types of spren.  If they just invested 1500 spren and the characteristics of who the spren saw determined Radiantness, I think the orders would have different numbers of members.

 

My theory kind of falls apart here. There is still hope, though. I will dig more deeply when I can and try to come up with more substantial evidence, maybe post it as a thread.

[Kurkistan he/him]

I really think you're just being too restrictive. Does Odium Odi-ize things? We only have a bare handful of Intents to discuss: it's unwarranted to say that something is off if Honor's primary activity isn't Honoring things.

Edited August 26, 2013 by Kurkistan

[IceBaka]

I would speculate that Honor is about bonds. The bond of your word, the bonds between men, the bond of matrimony, etc. Honorspren bind things, and a large part of being honorable is being trustworthy.

 

This is close to how I view Honor.  When Syl finally remembers that she's an honorspren, she doesn't say "I honor things." She specifically says, "I bind things."  Because of this I've thought of Honor as being more about honoring commitments or keeping promises rather than following an honor code or being honorable.  While I agree that keeping a promise and being honorable are interrelated, they are not equivalent.

[Gloom he/him]

Maybe I can clarify my take on Honor. I'm of the opinion that honor is about mutual respect. Respect is the basis of honor. If someone isn't worthy of respect, they are unworthy of being honored. Kaladin respects and empathizes with his men, and they respect and revere him in return this forged a bond between them. Honor is about caring. Kaladin cares about the well being of those who are in his command, and as a result, those who know Kaladin care about him in return, this deepend that bond, allowing him to take the downtrodden scum of the army and make them into a loyal crack unit of spearmen. Honor is about selflessness and courage. To reach the second ideal, Kaladin had to face his demons and give them up. Dalinar has also done this, and while we don't know if he has attracted an honorspren, he is definitely under the influence of Tanavast.

 

So from my limited understanding garnered from a single book in a ten book series, Honor is about bonds. Honor is about mutual respect, Honor is about caring, Honor is about selflessness and the courage to confront not only those who oppose you, but your own weaknesses as well. This is Honor as I know him. There is more to him than that. Nohadon could tell you all of the ideals that are valued by Honor, he wrote a book about them, It is called The Way of Kings.

[Shardlet he/him]

... Dalinar has also done this, and while we don't know if he has attracted an honorspren, he is definitely under the influence of Tanavast.

 

 

The conspicuousness of Dalinar's visions coupled with the also conspicuous absence of a bonding spren in Dalinar's life causes me to wonder.  Perhaps Dalinar is not destined to be a KR.  I am beginning to wonder if Tanavast has other plans for him.  There are nine Honorblades out there somewhere.  There are also, presumably, nine heralds kicking around living their lives in the wind.  Will all nine come around and eventually reclaim their blade and oath?  Or, will one, or more, need replacing?  If so, could not Dalinar be being groomed as a proto-herald.  It would mesh with the task that Tanavast has given him to unite the people.  That is a responsibility for a leader not a knight.

Edited September 5, 2013 by Shardlet

[Vortaan he/him]

Maybe I can clarify my take on Honor. I'm of the opinion that honor is about mutual respect. Respect is the basis of honor. If someone isn't worthy of respect, they are unworthy of being honored. Kaladin respects and empathizes with his men, and they respect and revere him in return this forged a bond between them. Honor is about caring. Kaladin cares about the well being of those who are in his command, and as a result, those who know Kaladin care about him in return, this deepend that bond, allowing him to take the downtrodden scum of the army and make them into a loyal crack unit of spearmen. Honor is about selflessness and courage. To reach the second ideal, Kaladin had to face his demons and give them up. Dalinar has also done this, and while we don't know if he has attracted an honorspren, he is definitely under the influence of Tanavast.

 

So from my limited understanding garnered from a single book in a ten book series, Honor is about bonds. Honor is about mutual respect, Honor is about caring, Honor is about selflessness and the courage to confront not only those who oppose you, but your own weaknesses as well. This is Honor as I know him. There is more to him than that. Nohadon could tell you all of the ideals that are valued by Honor, he wrote a book about them, It is called The Way of Kings.

 

This is kind of what I'm talking about. All of your perception here is honor, noun. Honor the verb has much wider usage, much like a preserve and preserving something are linked but worlds apart. While I might be a bit too literal here, isn't it logical that Shards have to act within the limit of their Intent? Preservation couldn't Ruin, and more than likely can't do other Intents that fall outside the portfolio of Preservation. So therefore, shouldn't Honor's actions be limited to honoring things? This could tie into binding things, but it's so much broader than that that I think sticking to honor as a noun limits the potential of the Shard so much.

[Shardlet he/him]

That is assuming that a Shard's title refers to a verb intent.  Consider, the words endowment, dominion, and devotion are all nouns.  The verbs would be endow, devote, and dominate. 

Edited August 27, 2013 by Shardlet

[Vortaan he/him]

Endowment endows people with Divine Breath, so we at least have proof of one of those. I'll concede that without knowing what Dominion and Devotion's original magic systems were, I can't prove that Dominion dominated and Devotion devoted. 

[hoser he/him]

This is kind of what I'm talking about. All of your perception here is honor, noun. Honor the verb has much wider usage, much like a preserve and preserving something are linked but worlds apart. While I might be a bit too literal here, isn't it logical that Shards have to act within the limit of their Intent? Preservation couldn't Ruin, and more than likely can't do other Intents that fall outside the portfolio of Preservation.

Whoa.  There is a big jump in here.  I agree that Preservation couldn't Ruin, which is to say the Shard can't operate in opposition to it's intent.  That is far from saying that the Shard can only act in a narrow band of actions that are completely in line with it's intent.  So preservation could make a deal with Ruin that allowed ruin to occur.  Further, Preservation could ruin that agreement by betraying Ruin. Neither of these actions is strictly in line with the intent of Preservation, but because they served the goals, Preservation could do them. 

 

So therefore, shouldn't Honor's actions be limited to honoring things? This could tie into binding things, but it's so much broader than that that I think sticking to honor as a noun limits the potential of the Shard so much.

I think what limits the potential of the Shard is narrowly limiting it's actions to those which are strictly in line with the intent.  For example, I think Honor participated in the Oathpact, parts of which included torturing the Heralds and having Desolations.  I don't think Honor tortured or desolated. I believe Honor thought that the result would serve it's intent, so it could participate in the overall setup.