How we refer to Honor

[Windrunner he/him]

Whoa.  There is a big jump in here.  I agree that Preservation couldn't Ruin, which is to say the Shard can't operate in opposition to it's intent.  That is far from saying that the Shard can only act in a narrow band of actions that are completely in line with it's intent.  So preservation could make a deal with Ruin that allowed ruin to occur.  Further, Preservation could ruin that agreement by betraying Ruin. Neither of these actions is strictly in line with the intent of Preservation, but because they served the goals, Preservation could do them. 

I think it's worth bearing in mind that we're not entirely sure how long it took Preservation and Ruin to forge their pact. It could have been decided before Leras was changed too much.

[Vortaan he/him]

I think it's worth bearing in mind that we're not entirely sure how long it took Preservation and Ruin to forge their pact. It could have been decided before Leras was changed too much.

 

I actually think this is probably the case, since Ruin mentions how he was surprised that Preservation wanted to commit that action. If they had been stalemated for awhile, it's less surprising that Preservation wanted to change the game. However, if it wasn't too far in and their mortal identities were still very prevalent, wanting to create life could be kind of surprising, considering the end cost of it.

 

 

 

Whoa.  There is a big jump in here.  I agree that Preservation couldn't Ruin, which is to say the Shard can't operate in opposition to it's intent.  That is far from saying that the Shard can only act in a narrow band of actions that are completely in line with it's intent.  So preservation could make a deal with Ruin that allowed ruin to occur.  Further, Preservation could ruin that agreement by betraying Ruin. Neither of these actions is strictly in line with the intent of Preservation, but because they served the goals, Preservation could do them. 

 

I think what limits the potential of the Shard is narrowly limiting it's actions to those which are strictly in line with the intent.  For example, I think Honor participated in the Oathpact, parts of which included torturing the Heralds and having Desolations.  I don't think Honor tortured or desolated. I believe Honor thought that the result would serve it's intent, so it could participate in the overall setup.   

 

I think there is a difference between the mind behind the Shard choosing an action and using Shardic power to enact it. Preservation's deal and betrayal were really the equivalent of lying, and I agree with you that if you read Intents that narrowly than the Shards are very very limited. However, I disagree with your interpretation of the deal between Ruin and Preservation. Short term, there was no acting against either Intent. Ruin was playing a short game where he saw the potential to finally end the stalemate, and Preservation was playing the long game knowing he needed a tool that was less limited than himself in order to Preserve.

 

A similar idea may power the Oathpact. Odium doesn't necessarily need to hold to his end of it, since he hates all things. However, Honor can't renege on a deal, he has to honor it. It almost makes me wonder if what Honor honors is Cultivation, and she was actually the one who made the Oathpact.

[hoser he/him]

Preservation couldn't Ruin, and more than likely can't do other Intents that fall outside the portfolio of Preservation.

I agree with the first part of this: "Preservation couldn't Ruin." 

I strongly disagree with the second part of this, which is a very different assertion:  "more than likely can't do other Intents that fall outside the portfolio of Preservation"

I have provided several examples of why this second assertion does not fit the books.  What evidence do you have to support the second assertion?

 

I think it's worth bearing in mind that we're not entirely sure how long it took Preservation and Ruin to forge their pact. It could have been decided before Leras was changed too much.

 

But, basically irrelevent to the point under discussion.  Consider this annotation to Chapter 63 of Mistborn 3.  There is a sentence near the middle:

Mistborn Spoiler

Ruin makes an interesting comment here. He says that he couldn�t refuse to help the Lord Ruler, since the Lord Ruler was destroying so beautifully. Ruin will help an enemy if there is destruction in it.

Just spending a few minutes reading annotations gives examples of Shards acting outside the narrow intent.  The point is:  Even at the end of Mistborn 3, Ruin acts outside the narrow intent of the Shard to advance the plan. 

 

I actually think this is probably the case, since Ruin mentions how he was surprised that Preservation wanted to commit that action. If they had been stalemated for awhile, it's less surprising that Preservation wanted to change the game. However, if it wasn't too far in and their mortal identities were still very prevalent, wanting to create life could be kind of surprising, considering the end cost of it.

As my other example shows, acting in ways that are not directly in line with the intent is always possible for Shards.  The duration of Shard possession is irrelevent to this. 

 Short term, there was no acting against either Intent. Ruin was playing a short game where he saw the potential to finally end the stalemate, and Preservation was playing the long game knowing he needed a tool that was less limited than himself in order to Preserve.

This is basically my point.  I believe that Shards can't act against their intent.  They can act in other ways than in direct execution of their intent, however, as long as they believe it net supports their intent.  This point applies at any time, even long after the Shard human binding. 

 

A similar idea may power the Oathpact. Odium doesn't necessarily need to hold to his end of it, since he hates all things. However, Honor can't renege on a deal, he has to honor it. It almost makes me wonder if what Honor honors is Cultivation, and she was actually the one who made the Oathpact.

Exactly!  Odium can renege or not as it suits his plans, because keeping agreements doesn't directly relate to his intent.  Honor can't act against his intent and keeping agreements is central.  On something that doesn't relate to Honor's intent, like when he allows the nonRadiants to remain relatively powerless, he has freedom of action.

[Arondell]

A similar idea may power the Oathpact. Odium doesn't necessarily need to hold to his end of it, since he hates all things. However, Honor can't renege on a deal, he has to honor it. It almost makes me wonder if what Honor honors is Cultivation, and she was actually the one who made the Oathpact.

 

I got the impression from comments made during the conversation between Jezrien and Kalak that so long as at least one is bound to the "Oathpact" then something is actually holding Odium back.

 

Jezrien : "Ishar believes that so long as there is one of us still bound to the Oathpact, it may be enough."

 

Kalak : "He will not remain bound by this.  The enemy.  He will find a way around it.  You know he will."

 

So unless the enemy referred to is someone other then Odium the phrasing strongly suggests that their is something restraining Odium's actions other then mere whim.

 

Also I find it difficult to believe that Honor would have been so naive as to enter into an agreement with Odium without being reasonably sure that he would continue to abide by it as long as certain conditions were met.

[Shardlet he/him]

I agree.  The oathpact must be more than a contract.  There must be an actual power binding Odium to the pact as long as certain conditions are met.  This power would likely bind all Shard participants in the Oathpact to certain actions and limitations.  I think the basis of the Othapact is some expectation of behavior and choices on the part of the residents of Roshar, particularly the Heralds.  But some actually constraining binding must be in place.  A contract without a means for enforcement is worthless.  It only functions so long as the participants adhere to the contract.  The Shards likely don't have a higher power they could appeal to enforce such a contract.  Therefore, a sword-of-Damocles type enforcement must necessarily be built into the Oathpact.  Consequences that automatically take effect and cannot he halted (except perhaps by agreement of the involved parties). 

[Isomere]

I have still not decided if Odium was a voluntary participant in the Oathpact. Most of the speculation includes him, but I can also see a different scenario. The Heralds could have discovered a way to trap Odium, but it required an eternal commitment to maintain the prison. They swore an oath to be forever vigilant and keep Odium bound, but this exposed them to Odium's whims and they caved under millennia of torture. 

[Vortaan he/him]

I agree with the first part of this: "Preservation couldn't Ruin." 

I strongly disagree with the second part of this, which is a very different assertion:  "more than likely can't do other Intents that fall outside the portfolio of Preservation"

I have provided several examples of why this second assertion does not fit the books.  What evidence do you have to support the second assertion?

 

Well let's break down some Intents that we know of and see if they fall under something Preservation could do. Honor? Yep, I can see that. Cultivation? Maybe, depending upon the Shardholder's views. Probably not forever, though. Ruin? No, sir. Odium? Hrm... maybe? Holding grudges would be Preserving hate, so yeah, maybe. Endowment? Probably not so much, Endowment indicates a loss of something to someone else. Devotion? I think the two fall pretty easily in line. Dominion? Well... there was that whole Final Empire thing that was a static, preserved dominion. So looking at what Shards we know, then there is some overlap. It's not a Preservation can't Honor, it's a Preservation probably can't do things that don't involve Preserving. At the end of the day, you need to end up with what you started out with. This is, by the way, why the whole bargain betrayal works. At the end of it, the world is Preserved and you end up with exactly what you had before.

 

As my other example shows, acting in ways that are not directly in line with the intent is always possible for Shards.  The duration of Shard possession is irrelevent to this. 

 

Directly contradicted by the books.

Vin needed to only shortly have Preservation's power or she could not have destroyed Ruin. It's very strongly implied that Leras was changed too much by the Shard to be able of self-destruction in that manner.

 

This is basically my point.  I believe that Shards can't act against their intent.  They can act in other ways than in direct execution of their intent, however, as long as they believe it net supports their intent.  This point applies at any time, even long after the Shard human binding. 

 

Contradicted by WoB. The longer someone holds a Shard the more their mind aligns with the Intent. While Shards might be ABLE to use their perception of their Intent to finagle some wiggle room with their powers, the longer they hold the Shard the less their perception is likely to give them the wiggle room required. I sort of see it like wearing glasses that very slowly turn red. In the beginning, things don't look much different, but given enough time some colors are going to be chopped out of your visual range. The longer this goes on the less you'll see until you really only see a narrow band of what was previously available to you.

 

As for the Oathpact comments, not really on topic. My current theory on it is that it's not between Odium and Honor, but between Cultivation and Honor, forcing Odium to tie himself to Roshar, thus limiting his overall power and forcing him into Investing, something he doesn't generally want to do.

[Gaelan he/him]

Odium is not tied to Roshar. For what we know, he's tied in a world near to it, but not in Roshar itself.

 

I'm not doing anything there, it's just for avoiding confusion

 

I find the points of view exposed there so much interesting, by the way.

[Pechvarry]

/>Directly contradicted by the books.

Vin needed to only shortly have

I think the line you responded to speaks of shards enacting other intents, not directly contradicting their own, as Vin could do but Leras couldn't.

[Windrunner he/him]

Odium is not tied to Roshar. For what we know, he's tied in a world near to it, but not in Roshar itself.

 

I'm not doing anything there, it's just for avoiding confusion

I'm afraid you're actually incorrect. Odium may now be on Braize, but at some point in the past he invested himself in Roshar, and remains invested still.

 

SHADOWSABER223 ()

If Odium were lured to Scadrial, would his physical body turn into a burnable metal? If so, could Harmony create an Odium-metal legion of Mistings to consume and burn it? Would that weaken him sufficiently enough to be killed or destroyed?

BRANDON SANDERSON

The difficulty here is, again, one of Identity. People born on Scadrial have an Identity tied to it and its magic. Odium would have to do certain things to make them able to use a magic he fuels. He has done these things on Roshar, so it's not impossible for him to manage it on Scadrial.

 

And

QUESTION:

When one of the shards, like Odium, move from world to world in the cosmere, does their presence, like the metals they leave behind and their magic, leave with them?

 

BRANDON SANDERSON

Umm... Odium never really settled on a planet.  He is now settled on Roshar and his magic has permeated things.  Leaving would be very difficult for him.  It would either involve leaving behind some of his power or ripping that out, which would be a difficult process.  So yes it is very tough to leave.  That is an excellent question and for those of you who don’t know.  Is anyone just baffled by that question?

 

I imagine that since Odium is still in the same system, leaving some power on Roshar is not such a big deal.

[hoser he/him]

Well let's break down some Intents that we know of and see if they fall under something Preservation could do. Honor? Yep, I can see that. Cultivation? Maybe, depending upon the Shardholder's views. Probably not forever, though. Ruin? No, sir. Odium? Hrm... maybe? Holding grudges would be Preserving hate, so yeah, maybe. Endowment? Probably not so much, Endowment indicates a loss of something to someone else. Devotion? I think the two fall pretty easily in line. Dominion? Well... there was that whole Final Empire thing that was a static, preserved dominion. So looking at what Shards we know, then there is some overlap. It's not a Preservation can't Honor, it's a Preservation probably can't do things that don't involve Preserving. At the end of the day, you need to end up with what you started out with. This is, by the way, why the whole bargain betrayal works. At the end of it, the world is Preserved and you end up with exactly what you had before.

So, we agree?  Maybe I misunderstood your original assertion about Shards being unable to act outside of their portfolio. 

 

I envision a sphere of actions with an axis representing the intent.  At one end of the axis is a cone with actions directly in line with the intent and the other end is a cone with actions directly opposed.  The question is how big the cone of actions in line with intent. 

 

I think that if it supports a plan to advance it's intent, a shard can take actions that are neutral or even somewhat counter ot it's intent.   Are you saying that you agree?

Directly contradicted by the books.

Vin needed to only shortly have Preservation's power or she could not have destroyed Ruin. It's very strongly implied that Leras was changed too much by the Shard to be able of self-destruction in that manner.

 

 

Contradicted by WoB. The longer someone holds a Shard the more their mind aligns with the Intent. While Shards might be ABLE to use their perception of their Intent to finagle some wiggle room with their powers, the longer they hold the Shard the less their perception is likely to give them the wiggle room required. I sort of see it like wearing glasses that very slowly turn red. In the beginning, things don't look much different, but given enough time some colors are going to be chopped out of your visual range. The longer this goes on the less you'll see until you really only see a narrow band of what was previously available to you.

I think the line you responded to speaks of shards enacting other intents, not directly contradicting their own, as Vin could do but Leras couldn't.

What Pechvarry said. 

The point you and Windrunner are making is that when a being first takes up a Shard, they can act directly against the intent.  Which is sort of a qualifier to your first statement that I agreed with: "Preservation couldn't Ruin." should more correctly be "Preservation couldn't Ruin except soon after being taken up."

It is irrelevent to the notion that Shards can act outside of their intent to support their plans at any point. 

[Gaelan he/him]

I'm afraid you're actually incorrect. Odium may now be on Braize, but at some point in the past he invested himself in Roshar, and remains invested still.

Thanks again. It's sometimes hard to remember all the quotes that have been said.

[Windrunner he/him]

It's all good, there are a lot. Certainly more than I can keep track of xD

[Pechvarry]

Ruin created, built stuff up. rather far from his agenda, but part of his master ruinous plan. Seems evidence enough for me of the wide band of actions a shard can take.

I understand this is unlikely, but all those quotes about Odium investing in Roshar were before we found out about Braize. Is it possible he was giving us a non-informative way of saying The Greater Roshar system? Seems like a lot of unrelated exposition if he had explained it then.

[Meg]

Pechvarry is just pointing to my newest problem. I've mused to make a topic, but now I dare put my post here. 

 

Once more I need your help to dig deeper into the Cosmere and the underlying thoughts of Mr. Sanderson.

I'd -- still -- say: There are three Shards on Roshar.

What do we know?

 

Question

Can you give me a hint about Odium?

Brandon Sanderson

Odium is not native to Roshar.

Dec 15th, 2011 http://www.theoryland.com/intvmain.php?i=675#32

 

 

Zas

So the number of Shards that have been on Roshar is three, correct?

Brandon Sanderson

Correct.

Zas

People have been thrown by you saying that Odium is not native to Roshar.

Brandon

Odium is not native, that's the thing. Are any of them native? So if you dig the deeper question, are any of them native, ehhh, none of them are native to the planets you've seen so far. What I probably should've said to be more precise is that Honor and Cultivation were there long before Odium showed up.

Sep 22nd, 2012 http://www.theoryland.com/intvmain.php?i=836#49

(That shows that Odium _had been_ on Roshar.)

 

Q: When one of the shards, like Odium, move from world to world in the cosmere, does their presence, like the metals they leave behind and their magic, leave with them?

BS: Umm... Odium never really settled on a planet.  He is now settled on Roshar and his magic has permeated things.  Leaving would be very difficult for him.  It would either involve leaving behind some of his power or ripping that out, which would be a difficult process.  So yes it is very tough to leave.  That is an excellent question and for those of you who don’t know.  Is anyone just baffled by that question? 

Aug. 8th or 9th or tenth, 2013
Brandon Sanderson Spotlight, Phoenix Comicon
https://docs.google.com/document/d/1_sTZkZ0Irdf3haauT5PnX94yYQSyQGlCqUAcOBafTMs/

This tidbit is quite confusing: "O. never really settled on a planet." vs. the next sentence: "is now settled on Roshar"

Nonetheless: All above given quotes tell us, that Odium at least had been on Roshar, and that he did invest parts of himself there.

Thus far I don't have bigger problems. Those come with the next quote:
 

 

Brandon:

Odium's presence is felt on Roshar, but he is on Braize, the 3rd planet in the system.

Aug 09 2013 http://www.17thshard.com/forum/topic/3934-qa-at-spokane-barnes-noble/#entry62280

 

That quote kind of contradicts the one directly above it.

 

You might have noticed that I added the date when those statements were made. But those (RL-)dates don't help with my confusion. So my question is: When -- in the timeline of the Cosmere -- are those statements of Mr. Sanderson placed? 

 

Finally this one: 

 

Brandon:
There are two Shards on Roshar, however Honor is dead.

Aug 09 2013 http://www.17thshard.com/forum/topic/3934-qa-at-spokane-barnes-noble/#entry62280

Here again: when in the timeline of the Cosmere is "are" and "is". We "know" that Tanavast was dead (and therefor Honor was Splintered) by the end of TWoK. But -- going back to Odium -- this quote, too, says that Odium "is" on Roshar.

That's all very confusing.

 

Can someone help or do I (we) need to wait for Mr. Sanderson clarifying this? 

[Windrunner he/him]

It doesn't seem problematic for me. In the beginning, Odium never settled anywhere. That's when he went to Sel and possibly other places. Now, he's gone to Roshar, invested some of his power there, possibly for reasons related to the Oathpact, and then left again to Braize, leaving a bit of his power behind that he hopes to reclaim.

[hoser he/him]

Nice work with the quotes, Meg. I think your question might be: where is Odium? The assumed time frame is after the first book and before the second. I imagine Odium to be on the other planet. I think Brandon thinks of Honor still being on Roshar, even though splintered and Tanavast is presumably dead. So the two Shards on Roshar are Honor and Cultivation.I assume that Odium can maintain his Connection to Roshar from where he is.

[Vortaan he/him]

So, we agree?  Maybe I misunderstood your original assertion about Shards being unable to act outside of their portfolio. 

 

I envision a sphere of actions with an axis representing the intent.  At one end of the axis is a cone with actions directly in line with the intent and the other end is a cone with actions directly opposed.  The question is how big the cone of actions in line with intent. 

 

With the qualifier that the longer that someone holds the Shard the fewer options you have that don't counteract the Intent. For example, I don't think Honor could lie in the pursuit of Honor, but Tanavast probably could shortly after taking up the Shard.

 

 

Ruin created, built stuff up. rather far from his agenda, but part of his master ruinous plan. Seems evidence enough for me of the wide band of actions a shard can take.

I understand this is unlikely, but all those quotes about Odium investing in Roshar were before we found out about Braize. Is it possible he was giving us a non-informative way of saying The Greater Roshar system? Seems like a lot of unrelated exposition if he had explained it then.

 

Ruin didn't create anything, he warped something that already existed and in the process turned normal people into bloodthirsty, superpowered monsters... 

[Kurkistan he/him]

Sorry Vortan, I think you're off here. Ruin is stated as being capable of creating towards the end of destruction. We have it from the books that Ruin knew that "if he built one thing up, he could use it to knock down two others." (HoA Ch 8 epigraph).

Sure he "built" from existing stock and in so doing twisted it, but he still built something up.

Edited September 1, 2013 by Kurkistan

[Vortaan he/him]

Sorry Vortan, I think you're off here. Ruin is stated as being capable of creating towards the end of destruction. We have it from the books that Ruin knew that "if he built one thing up, he could use it to knock down two others." (HoA Ch 8 epigraph).

Sure he "built" from existing stock and in so doing twisted it, but he still built something up.

 

We also have an epigraph that states straight that Ruin needed Preservation to create anything, hence the whole bargain. Twisting existing stock is different from making something new, which would be against Ruin's Intent. This actually makes me think that Scadrial humans had to have been created not too long after Leras and Ati took up their Shards, since the bargain between them seems to run a little counter to both Intents.

[Kurkistan he/him]

I think you're being ungenerous here, Vortaan. If you show Ruin some sticks and a chasm that he can't jump--on the other side of which is a city ripe for Ruination--he will make those sticks into a (twisted and ugly, but still perfectly functional) ladder so that he can destroy the city. Making the ladder--imposing a unique and purposeful order on something--is a creative act in my book.

 

Ruin gets to be even more Ruinous after the bargain, in the long run, while Preservation gets to Preserve stuff against Ruin indefinitely if his betrayal works.

Edited September 2, 2013 by Kurkistan

[Morsk he/him]

There must be something about intents and limitations we don't understand, because Rashek was unable to use Preservation's power to destroy, even holding it only for moments.

http://www.theoryland.com/intvmain.php?i=727#27

Kwaan was the only one who turned down this offer, calling it a betrayal of who they were as a people. Rashek could have just made him one anyway, but in a moment of anger, he tried to destroy Kwaan—which he couldn't do, not with Preservation's power. As the other Feruchemists changed, Kwaan remained the same. Rashek eventually hunted him down and killed him.

Also Sazed, on ascending, remarks that he can create by using the two powers together, but that it takes some care in keeping them apart. Not that he can create because holding two powers protects his mind from being warped to something more narrow.

It doesn't make sense to me, especially in light of the worldbuilding requirement that any Shard can power any magic system. That suggests they can do almost anything. Perhaps that's the exception though, and part of why Shards would ever choose Champions or work through mortals, or power magic systems instead of doing everything themselves. It lets them do more things.

[Windrunner he/him]

I had always though that perhaps the intent of the Shard was much more rigidly enforced when you were simply holding the power of Preservation at the Well, rather than holding the Shard itself.

[WeiryWriter he/him]

Basically what Windy said.  Rashek couldn't kill Kwaan because he wanted to do it for selfish reasons.  You can kill with Preservation's look at Elend he was fatally injured by the mistspirit.  The reason Preservation could do that little bit of Ruin is because it would lead to something greater being Preserved.  It is my opinion that shard's can act against their intent, if it leads to something greater that IS in line with their intent.

[Shardlet he/him]

I am going to suggest that maybe there is a distinction between actions of a Shard and the use of the power of a shard.  Preservation could probably act in small ways against the intent of the Shard (as in the case of stabbing Elend), but could not use the power of the shard (notice capitalization of Shard v. shard; shard = chunk of Adonalsium, Shard = entity holding a shard , i.e., entity plus shard) in a manner contrary to the intent of the shard.  This would explain why Rashek could not use the power of Preservation to kill Kwaan.  He attempted to smite him with the power directly. 

 

Now, of course, there are important aspects of the timeline which we don't know.  How long after the Shattering did Ruin and Preservation make their pact?  How long after the creation of life on Scadrial did the ascension of TLR and subsequent the events of TFE take place?  And most importantly perhaps, how long does it take for the intent of a shard to overtake the intent of the holder?  Is the process the same for every shard or are some shards stronger or weaker in this?  Are some holders more determined and able to stave off the shard's intent and maintain their own?  Is it gradual or does it come in and smack you?  Does it occur exponentially?  Does it start slow, accelerate rapidly and then finish slowly (or perhaps even asymptotically)?

 

It's somewhat daunting when you really flesh out what we don't know.  I mean, we only have some 20% of the cosmere books and most of the info we have has been teased and built up by Q&A.