Quick, somewhat baseless Oathpact theory

[Gloom he/him]

There are three habitable planets in the system. I think the Oathpact revolved around Odium wishing to claim the last planet. I think that Honor knew what Odium had done, and knew what he was likely to do, but considered it worth the risk. What! you ask? Simple, Odium was not invested in a planet. This gave Odium a greater amount of power that he could use at one time. In other words, Odium had all his cash in hand to spend as he wanted, and most of the other Shards had part of theirs tied up in real-estate. The Oathpact forced Odium to invest his power into a planet. If Odium left that planet, the Oathpact would be broken. I believe that the Oathpact was a risk freely taken in order to bind Odium to one system or force him to abandon some of his strength by leaving a planet he invested.

 

It may also be that this pact contains the terms of war within them. This may have been what convinced Odium to agree.

[Gloom he/him]

@Gloom: thanks for the work clarifying known and speculated details. I agree with everything you have said with one small detail. I remember reading a quote where Brandon implies that since Taln is still bound, the Oathpact is still in force. I can't find it and could be mistaken, will keep looking and get back to you if I find anything concrete. 

 

If the theory above is correct, or even close, and Odium's investment in the Roshar system was part of the conditions for the Oathpact, then he will be tied to it until he can withdraw that investment.

[Shardlet he/him]

Gloom, you are going crazy with these double posts lately .   FYI, editing a post is preferred to double posting (unless it is like a couple of days later or a radically different thought.

[PallonianFire he/him]

I always thought that Odium was able to Splinter Honor as a result of the Heralds breaking the Oathpact—a difficult task at any rate, and obviously it took him a while to pull it off even after the Heralds abandoned the Pact. Though what I want to know is how exactly he managed that, considering their Intents. We know that Ruin and Preservation were fundamentally opposed in Intent, and as a result, they couldn't do much against each other without hurting themselves. Aren't Honor and Odium similarly opposed in Intent? Odium is all about division and Honor is about bonds, right?

[Dros]

I've tried and tried and tried to figure out why Honor would agree to such a terrible agreement and to me, no matter the theory I come up with, it never makes sense.

 

So maybe the current circumstances are not what they were when such an agreement was made--a Shard's Intent changes the holder, so it's possible Rayse wasn't after the same goals as he is now and now that Odium's Intent has fully changed him, he's trying to find a way out. It's possible the Oathpact was less an agreement between warring parties and first created for a different purpose altogether.

 

I realize Rayse was considered ill-tempered to begin with, but that doesn't mean he was completely intent on destroying everything in the beginning. 

 

EDIT: And to add a little on that---It's hard to believe any man or woman would agree to near eternal torment, no matter what was at stake. Maybe what the Heralds experienced in between the Desolations has changed. Maybe at first Honor told them they would be in stasis or just prisoners or resigned to a place in Shadesmar, and somehow Odium changed that, or maybe he found them and without Honor's protection...all bets are off over there.

 

Just a thought.

Edited October 6, 2013 by Dros

[hoser he/him]

What if Braise is the Tranquiline Halls? What if the Oath pact was an agreement between Honor, Cultivation, and Odium to share the system? What if Odium used that agreement to his advantage and found a loop hole that allowed him to attack Honor? What if the Heralds were actually created to defend Braise, and they are forced back to their home world between desolations, a home world now completely dominated by Odium?

 

Roshar is not the home world of humanity, but it could be the world that was chosen by Cultivation. When things went south for Honor, he could have moved his people, or at least a portion of his people to Roshar. Once Honor had fled to Roshar, Odium pursued. He brought the Parsh with him. Honor invested himself on Roshar alongside Cultivation, but was still weak from losing Braise, vulnerable. The heralds abandoned him before he could recover, then later, the Knights Radiant abandoned him as well. Honor was left defenseless and splintered.

This thought of Gloom's seems brilliant to me.  It seems so far out there, based on so little supporting evidence, that I can't say I believe in it.  But it does explain the conundrum below, well described by Dros.

 

I've tried and tried and tried to figure out why Honor would agree to such a terrible agreement and to me, no matter the theory I come up with, it never makes sense.

EDIT: And to add a little on that---It's hard to believe any man or woman would agree to near eternal torment, no matter what was at stake. Maybe what the Heralds experienced in between the Desolations has changed. Maybe at first Honor told them they would be in stasis or just prisoners or resigned to a place in Shadesmar, and somehow Odium changed that, or maybe he found them and without Honor's protection...all bets are off over there.

 

Just a thought.

[Gloom he/him]

Okay, lets look at these Halls and see what we can discover then. Below is all the information listed in regards to the Tranquiline Halls of any relevance in TWoKs. I did omit a few quotes where bridgemen swore by the Halls, as they lacked any pertinent information.

 

Vorinism taught that the finest warriors would have the holy privilege of joining the Heralds after death, fighting to reclaim the Tranquiline Halls from the Voidbringers.

Ch. 15 TWoK

"Because," Jest said, "we've gotta prepare men to fight for the Tranquiline Halls. We've gotta send soldiers to the Heralds. The ardents are always talking of it."

Ch.16 TWoK

Yes, the highest Calling of men was to join the battle in the afterlife to reclaim the Tranquiline Halls, but the Almighty accepted the excellence of any man or woman, regardless of what they did.

Ch. 18 TWoK

 

This doesn't appear to happen. The Heralds go to a place that may be Damnation where they are tortured between Desolations. We have no information about the disposition of the souls of the dead, but if they are fighting to reclaim the Tranquiline Halls, they are doing it alone.

 

"There hasn't been peace since the Tranquiline Halls," Adolin said immediately. '"Man's life on Roshar is conflict."' It was a quotation from the Arguments.

Ch. 24 TWoK

 

I have a feeling that Vorinism was created after the Heralds abandoned the Oath Pact, possibly by Jezrien, in an attempt to assuage his own guilt over abandoning man by organizing a religion that would keep humanity prepared in the event of another Desolation. I have no proof of this.

 

"May you someday find a place of honor in the Tranquiline Halls, fallen brother," Kaladin sad, his voice echoing. "And may we find a better end than you."

Ch. 27 TWoK

He was losing his thirst for battle. That worried him, as the Thrill-the enjoyment and longing for war-was part of what drove the Alethi as a people. The grandest of masculine arts was to become a great warrior, and the most important Calling was to fight. The Almighty himself depended on the Alethi to train themselves in honorable battle so that when they died, they could join the Heralds' army and win back the Tranquiline Halls.

Ch. 28 TWoK

 

I believe this is a Vorin tenant.

 

You were supposed to burn prayers to send them to the Almighty, who waited for his Heralds to recapture the Tranquiline Halls. That never made sense to Kaladin. The Almighty was supposed to be able to see all and know all. So why did he need a prayer burned before he would do anything? Why did he need people to fight for him in the first place?

Ch. 43 TWoK

Most people in the cities, however, saw the Voidbringers as spirits who stalked at night, a kind of evil spren that invaded the hearts of men and made them do terrible things. When a good man grew angry, it was the work of the Voidbringers.

Scholars laughed at all these ideas. Actual historical accounts-the ones she could find quickly-were contradictory. Were the Voidbringers the denizens of Damnation? If so, wouldn't Damnation now be empty, as the Voidbringers had conquered the Tranquiline Halls and cast out mankind to Roshar?

Ch. 46 TWoK

 

This leads me to believe that the Tranquiline Halls were a place that could be walked in physical form. Both the Voidbringers and the Heralds manifest in the physical.

 

He chuckles as they arrived at the lift. "That isn't the kind of thing the Dawnsingers did. They were healers, kindly spren sent by the Almighty to care for humans once we were forced out of the Tranquiline Halls."

"Kind of like the opposite of Voidbringers."

"I suppose you could say that."

Ch. 45 TWoK

 

It would be the height of irony if the Parshendi are the Voidbringers during Desolations, and the Dawnsingers following Desolations.

 

"We believe that the Voidbringers were real, Shallan. A scourge and a plague. A hundred times they came upon mankind. First casting us from the Tranquiline Halls, then trying to destroy us here on Roshar. They weren't just spren that hid under rocks, then came out to steel someones laundry. They were creatures of terrible destructive power, forged in Damanation, created from hate."

Ch. 46 TWoK

 

I think the quote of ninety and nine times that follows is more likely seeing as that would be the fulfillment of ten tens.

 

He shrugged as she guided him into an archive room, filled with shelves of books. "I told you the basics Shallan. The Voidbringers were an embodiment of evil. We fought them off ninety and nine times, led by the Heralds and their chosen knights, the ten orders we call the Knights Radiant. Finally, Aharientiam came, the Last Desolation. The Voidbringers were cast back into the Tranquiline Halls. The Heralds followed to force them out of heaven as well, and Roshar's Heraldic Epochs ended. Mankind entered the Era of Solitude. The modern era."

Ch. 46 TWoK

 

I did find this quote amusing. A self proclaimed ardent claiming that the Knights Radiant were the chosen knights of the Heralds.

 

But what of the bridgemen? Would the Almighty demand that all these fallen rise and continue their drudgery? Would Dunny and the others run bridges in the afterlife? No ardents came to them to test their abilities or grant them Elevations. Perhaps the bridgemenn wouldn't be needed in the War for Heaven. Only the most skilled went there anyway. Others would simply slumber until the Tranquiline Halls were reclaimed.

Ch. 59 TWoK

"The story mentions the Desolations at the beginning," Navani said. "Giving them credit for having wiped out Parasaphi's people."

"But what were they?"

"Wars." Navani took a sip of wine. "The Voidbringers came again and again, trying to force mankind off Roshar and into Damnation. Just as they once forced mankind-and the Heralds-out of the Tranquiline Halls."

Ch. 61 TWoK

 

I believe that the Tranquiline Halls are of importance to the Oath pact. This was the earliest point in Roshars' history that the war was recorded that we've been shown. This doesn't mean that it started here though.

 

I believe that the Tranquiline Halls were a bridge between two worlds. One of those worlds was Roshar, the other is the world in which man was meant to live (I believe both of these worlds were in the same solar system). They were the home of Honor and Cultivation. For Odium to conquer this place, it is almost certain that he would have had to conquer the other side of this bridge first. So the war wouldn't have begun in the Tranquiline Halls, but on the the world that Honor had chosen as his own. When Honor had chosen his Heralds, the Tranquiline Halls would have been a haven. A place of peace and safety away from the war. A place where the Heralds could recover before resuming battle. After they had been pushed from the Halls, things changed...

 

That was dangerous. When he died, he was sent back, no choice. When he survived the Desolation, he was supposed to go back as well. Back to that place that he dreaded. Back to that place of pain and fire. What if he decided...not to go?

Kalak felt something within him break at the admission. How long had it been? Centuries, perhaps millennia, or torture. It was so hard to keep track. Those fires, those hooks, digging into his flesh anew each day. Searing the skin off his arms, then burning the fat, then driving to the bone. he could smell it. Almighty, he could smell it!

 

Once the Halls were taken, I believe Odium made sure that the reception that the Heralds received upon their return was more in line with what he considered a proper reward for their efforts.

 

I believe Honor and Cultivation were driven from the Halls and forced to retreat to Roshar. Honor brought as many of his people and enough of what they would require for survival with them, and a place was made for them in what is now known as Shinovar.

 

I am not certain of various aspects of this theory. I don't know if Honor was forced to abandon part of his power on the world he had chosen. He may have remained close enough to it for it not to be an issue. Where they went after being forced from the Tranquiline Halls is also something I have no information on, though I still believe that Cultivation may be the Night Watcher, or at least have pooled a portion of her power with the Night Watcher.

 

What agreements are within the Oath pact is beyond our ability to determine at this point because so little has been said about it, but I believe that it was agreed upon by Honor as a way to cage Odium, and agreed upon by Odium as a way to force Honor to fight by the rules set forth in the agreement. It was two Shards against one, so if the Oath Pact limited interference from Cultivation while Odium fought Honor, then it would have been seen as a victory by Odium. If Odium was forced to invest his power in a planet, it would have been seen as a victory by Honor.

 

I think Odium cheated. He created a race that was self determining, but could be forced into mindless servitude. Honors people were humans. They fought against Odiums forces, but they maintained their own sense of self, they still sought to better their position in life, and as always, there were some who felt that they would be better served either not fighting, or fighting against Honor. Odium had complete control over his people during the wars, his people were more versatile than men, and stronger than men. He also used his power to corrupt the creations of Honor and Cultivation to create new tools to fight for him as well.

 

In response to this, spren began forming Nahel Bonds with men. They created an army for the Heralds to lead through the Desolations. Ninety and nine times the Desolations came. Nine of the ten Heralds forswore their oaths. Now comes the last Desolation.

 

It makes a pretty story. It may be completely wrong, but hey, this is the place for somewhat baseless Oath Pact theories after all.

[Argent he/him]

...

What does Honor have that Odium wants?

Odium' s goal is the shattering of every Shard.

So the only thing Honor has to offer is his Shard. Either up front or by making it easier(or taking less time) to shatter his Shard. Either that our giving up Cultivation's Shard, which is a really, really long shot.

...

This is interesting. Self-sacrifice is generally considered honorable, so I wouldn't be at all surprised to find out that a part of the Oathpact included a deal between Honor and Odium, the terms of which bound Honor to playing a sacrificial lamb in exchange of Odium agreeing to a formal way of being defeat, something to do with the Heralds. So, hypothetically, Honor would walk up to Odium and say "Look, man, you want my Shard and I know it. How about we save ourselves a few centuries of messing worlds up, and I just lay down here and let you Splinter the life out of me. In exchange for making things easy, you'll let my Heralds fight against your Desolations, and if this and this happens, you are screwed. Oh, but give me a couple of days to leave a few visions for somebody in the future too." What Honor gains out of this is not at all clear, because we don't know anything about pre-Oathpact Roshar, but it's easy to imagine it's something to do with either Odium's ultimate defeat, or easier life for Roshar's current and future denizens.

 

And another thought, a little crazier. I wonder if the Tranquilline Halls and Damnation are the same thing. The Heralds' conversation from the beginning of the book makes it sound like the torment they endure is deliberate (and almost personal - you don't use chains and hooks to make a crowd suffer, you use them on individuals), but that aside I think it would be an interesting way to tie their recurring return to Damnation and the Vorin idea that dead warriors go to Valhalla the Tranquilline Halls and fight the Voidbringers there (who have, presumably, made the place damnation unpleasant).

[Gloom he/him]

My current theory doesn't include a sacrificial lamb, but it does require that Honor stepped forward to try to protect his fellow Shards. Before Odium came to the Roshar system, he was killing Shardbearers and splintering Shards. Odium wasn't invested in anything. He had all of his power at his disposal. He used that power to good effect.

 

If Odium remained uninvested, he could have continued picking off Shards until there were only a few left, then went back for the harder ones. By that time, Odium would have been really good at Shardslaying.

 

I believe that Honor tempted Odium into the Oathpact. I think Honor felt it would be a fair fight. Whatever the case may be, Honor found a way to get Odium to invest himself in a planet. We have WoB that Odium is invested in Roshar. Yes, it's true. I believe that Honor felt that if Odium was invested in a planet, it would even out the playing field, or perhaps he even hoped to have a home field advantage. I don't think Tanavast was expecting to lose. I'm not even certain he was expecting a fight, but I am pretty sure that provisions were made in the Oathpact regarding challenges.

 

I actually don't put a lot of weight in the spirit world for these books. Shards don't appear to be gods, they are men who have ascended as a result of picking up a funny looking rock. I'm of the opinion that Damnation is actually just the planet that Odium used to create his Voidbringers before throwing them into the fight against Honor. It may be a known location because war may have been waged against Damnation prior to the fall of the Tranquilne Halls.

 

I believe the first five books will be the fight to save Roshar, and the next five will be the reclaiming of the Tranquiline Halls... Okay fine, that's more of a hope than a belief

[Argent he/him]

I like the idea of Honor tempting Odium into a deal in order to make him Invest himself, but I have a couple of issues with it. First, he wasn't exactly Splintering Shards left and right - he only had Devotion and Dominion on his record at that time, I believe. Both of whom were on the same planet, for added convenience - though Rayse could've chosen Sel because it had two Shards he felt he could take down. But second, Roshar feels like a shardworld Odium is actually kind of paying close attention to. He is, presumably, the cause for the Desolations, and there is no evidence of him getting so personal on any other world. Assuming that the Voidbringers and/or Desolations are somehow related to Odium's Investiture on Roshar, then I find it unlikely that Honor included said Investiture as a part of his deal. It sounds more likely that his requirement for the Oathpact would've been for Odium to lessen his direct involvement, not to start it in the first place.

 

 

Also, in "he was killing Shardbearers" you probably want to say Shardholders - Shardbearers are people like Dalinar who have Shardblade and Shardplate; Shardholders are the people who pick up the Shards of Adonalsium.

Edited October 10, 2013 by Argent

[Gloom he/him]

Yes, Shardholder.

 

Tanavast had some ability to see the future. He isn't as good at it as some Shards, but he knew what Odium was up to. He most likely saw that he could die as a result of making the Oathpact, but I think that was one of the less certain futures. Leaving Odium unchecked would have resulted in the vision that he showed to Dalinar. A vision of the future where Odium splinters all other shards. On the other hand, he may have known that he would die, but if this is the case, he probably realized that if Odium was left unchecked, that he, Tanavast, was going to die regardless. In this case I think he saw a chance that Cultivation would survive provided that the Oathpact was created. That his people would survive, and perhaps even that his Shard would be reconstituted. I think the ultimate goal of the Oathpact was to force Odium to invest himself in a planet and eventually be driven from that planet. This would ultimately reduce Odiums' power and make him less of a threat to the other Shards.

 

As far as the Desolations/Voidbringers go, I believe that these were a result of Odiums' investiture in the planet. I believe his investiture in the planet, or at least in a planet, seeing as the Roshar system has three habitable planets, was a part of the Oathpact. I believe that Odium cheated by creating a race that he could, through the use of the magic system, completely dominate. I also think he invested either the minimum or maximum amount of power that was allowed in order to fulfill the Oathpact. Any Shard that invests their power in a planet has to remain on that planet or the power invested is forfeited by them.

 

Odium might invest the minimum amount of power if he sought to personally splinter Honor. He might invest the maximum amount of power if he intended to use the Oathpact as a weapon to splinter Honor. No matter how much or how little he invested, he has no intention of leaving before he reclaims it.

Edited October 7, 2013 by Gloom

[Dros]

Problem with that, though...Honor seemed to curse himself for not being prepared for Odium's strike. Remember, in the vision, Honor says, "Odium has killed me. I should've known he would come for me." That's a strange line for someone who has offered himself up as a sacrificial lamb of sorts. Maybe if he said, "I can't believe he came for me so early." or something like that, it would make more sense to me. To me, Honor was cursing himself for not putting the pieces together fast enough.

 

Now, it could be he thought the Oathpact would protect him, but was disappointed in not recognizing the fact that Odium would cheat (if possible to cheat at all).

 

I'm really having a hard time with this deal made between Shards. The Oathpact seems such a horrible deal...with all the knowledge a Shardholder has at his disposal, why would one make such a bad deal? Vexed.

[Argent he/him]

You are right, this doesn't sound like someone who has offered himself.

 

Regarding the Oathpact, we don't know what humanity - or Honor, or the Heralds - gained from the deal. We know the Heralds were bound by the Oathpact, so they must have either existed prior to it, or were created as a part of the deal. It is possible that a part of the Oathpact was a clause that allowed Honor to choose champions, to focus his power into them. I wonder whether Odium managed to get his hands on Cultivation and used Tanavast's love for her to bargain for something he wanted on Roshar...

[Dros]

 I wonder whether Odium managed to get his hands on Cultivation and used Tanavast's love for her to bargain for something he wanted on Roshar...

 

Wait...what?  A little sumthin' sumthin' between Shards? I didn't know that.

[Gloom he/him]

He most likely saw that he could die as a result of making the Oathpact, but I think that was one of the less certain futures.

 

I really don't believe that Honor was playing the sacrificial lamb.

 

My current theory doesn't include a sacrificial lamb, but it does require that Honor stepped forward to try to protect his fellow Shards.

 

As I've stated twice. Yes, I also made a case for that eventuality, but it isn't and hasn't been a prime motivation in my opinion.

 

"This isn't just about you either," the figure said, raising his hand into the air. A light winked out in the sky, one that Dalinar hadn't realized was there. Then another winked out as well. The sun seemed to be growing dimmer.

"It's about all of them," the figure said. "I should have realized he'd come for me."

Ch. 75 TWoK

 

I believe what this is describing is the death of other Shards, and possibly their worlds.

 

Here's what I think happened:

Honor saw what could happen in the event that Odium remained unbound, so he convinced Odium to enter an agreement with him. To form a pact. He thought he could handle Odium better than most of the others. He was Honor afterall. I think he knew that it was a risk. I don't think he entered into the Oathpact as a means of committing suicide, I think he did it as a means of containing Odium. I don't think he bound his Heralds in Damnation, I think they return to the Tranquiline Halls upon death. I don't think Honor intended to lose his Halls. I don't think he intended to be forced into retreat, and I don't think he intended to die.

 

I do think that Tanavast would have made a hell of a lawyer. Tanavast is dead, his Shard is splintered, his Halls are lost, and yet Odium is still bound. That's an agreement to be proud of.

Edited October 9, 2013 by Gloom