Urithiru based on new info

[Oudeis he/him]

The map preceding chapter 12.

 

Cool.

 

I know what it looks like, and I know that the people of Roshar assume that this was once a normal plain that somehow broke. I simply disagree. Where does it drain? All the water the highstorms drop goes somewhere. If this were a normal plain, then got broken, would it be likely that it'd form into something with drainage?

 

Here's a part I'm a LITTLE unclear on. They say that some plateaus are 40 feet off the ground, some are 100. When Kaladin mentions this while his bridgecrew is on chasm duty, it seems relevant, so I feel like he isn't talking about the difference between "right at the Alethi edge" versus "at the tower". If you can put a bridge between plateaus, then I doubt they change height by sixty feet all that frequently. Doesn't this mean that the ground at the bottom of the chasms slopes up and down? If that's the case, where are the lakes? Shouldn't there be some point where it's 100' to the top of the nearest plateau, and both forward and back are uphill? In a world with highstorms, that'd form a lake. Why doesn't it?

 

The chasms drain. I think they're the roads and the plateaus are the buildings. I don't think the Plains are one mass that shattered, I think it's a city with streets and towers. That's why everyone who looks at it thinks they can see a pattern there. It was designed, planned, and built, or at the least it was built around a formation like Kholinar's windblades.

[Shardlet he/him]

The rub with that idea is that the the plateaus then would vary in height significantly.  The only plateau that is discussed that details any sort of topography is the Tower which slope upwards.  If the plateaus varied in height substantialy, it seems like that would be a noted feature and not something to drop in a later book.  It also seems unlikely that the plains would be referred to as plains.  Typically plains are pretty flat.  Also, I can't help but think it would be nigh unto impossible to navigate the plains with the bridges.  How do youlift one end of a bridge 20 feet and maintain that rise whil pushing it over the chasm?

[Oudeis he/him]

The rub with that idea is that the the plateaus then would vary in height significantly. 

 

On Earth, I'd agree with you. On Roshar? There's a place were people live in enormous hollow stalactites. There are places where they live in huge claw marks in the ground. Maybe there's a reason they were all built to a certain height, and we just don't know it. I realize that's a bit of a cop-out, but it means it's still a plausible idea.

 

Or, to follow my soulcasting theory: maybe when they hid the town under all that stone, they decided to make all the stone level. Maybe someone decided leaving them different heights would look too much like a city, so they more-or-less leveled them all. Or maybe almost every building used to be taller than this, but four-and-a-half millenia of highstorms wore down almost everything higher than surrounding ground level.

[Shardlet he/him]

You've argued opposing ways now  .  Either the depth of the chasms vary from place to place and the plateaus are fairly level or the plateaus are varying heights and the chasms are fairly level.  Personally, I think the plateaus are fairly level and the chasms are shallow near the warcamps and slope downwards away from the camps.  This would allow drainage as well as account for the varying chasm wall heights from the perspective of bridge 4 within the chasms.

[Gloom he/him]

I'm going to agree with Shardlet here. From the book I got the impression that the plains were fairly level with only minor fluctuations other than the tower, and that the chasms were sloped away and provided drainage westward during Highstorms.

[Oudeis he/him]

You've argued opposing ways now  . 

Wait, me? I'm sorry, I didn't mean to give that impression. I think it's a given that (at least in general terms) the tops of all the plateaus are fairly level. Maybe there are broad trends but with few exeptions, if you're standing on a plateau then all the ones surrounding you will be of a (VERY APPROXIMATE) level.

 

I think what I failed to properly convey was this: The original buildings might not have been the same level, but if they were deliberately hidden in Soulcast stone, then the stone is all level. Think of an ice-cube tray. Put small objects in each one. A coin, a marble, a bottlecap. Each thing comes to a varying height. But fill them all with water and freeze it, and even though the things inside are of different heights, the tops of the ice cubes are all level.

 

I realize I did not explain my position well last time. I'll strive to be more clear moving forward.

 

I'm going to agree with Shardlet here. From the book I got the impression that the plains were fairly level with only minor fluctuations other than the tower, and that the chasms were sloped away and provided drainage westward during Highstorms.

 

Yes, according to the premise of chasm duty, the force of a highstorm drains everything to the west, which is why so many bodies end up there, despite the fact that only small armies can be fielded at once, and that the Parshendi tactics mean that skirmishes have relatively few losses.

 

But the west IS where the Alethi are. All along it. If there were a place for the water to drain, it'd be an obvious possible escape route that Kaladin would have suggested. If the water all poured there but then drained east, it would pull more bodies with it.

 

I also say that Kaladin would not have mentioned so often during chasm duty "oh sometimes the plateaus are a hundred feet in the air" if that was only revelant if they were to inexplicably travel several miles away from their actual positions. The Tower is hours away, it would be like him mentioning "the weather is much nicer in Kharbranth" as though that were relevant. I can't see why he'd bring it up if it weren't for the fact that, in his immediate area, some plateaus were significantly farther up than others, and at no point does he say "as you travel Stormward" or "deeper into the plains".

 

Since we all agree that the tops are level, then the chasms must be changing their depths. I realize the book never expressly says "the ground slopes up and down through the chasms" but it also never expressly says "the chasms all have a gentle, even downslope Stormward" so my argument is at least as valid as yours.

 

There should be pools of water. I realize they've never been mentioned, which I find weird, and could be used to support the theory that "well then it must all slope Stormward" but if that were the case, finding a body would be a rare event, not so astoundingly common that the bridgemen ignore a small pile of corpses and won't bother with anything less than a morgue's-worth, as they are shown to do.

[Gloom he/him]

Brandon based much of the life on Roshar around tide pools. That's how I see the Shattered Plains, as a giant tidal pool. The High Storms are the tides. From the explanations and the art, I see High Storms as the Roshar equivalent to hurricanes in our world. They are circular and while they move east to west, they blow in a circular pattern. Their winds are strong enough to hurl boulders. Even with reduced gravity, this still means they are the equivalent of a category four to five hurricane.

 

If you have enough force, you can make water travel in any direction. High Storms certainly have the force required to push water uphill. When water rushes through a canyon it carries everything with it, but as it goes uphill, it shallows out and leaves more debris behind it. Like a tide leaves jetsam on the shore. Side canyons should also be considered. These are places that water is forced into, but lacks an outlet. So if you force a bunch of water into a side canyon, it will stay there until the pressure holding it in place is alleviated, then drains back out with less force than it had when it was shoved into that space.

 

In an average battle, it could be argued that thousands can die. The Alethi have been at war on the Shattered plains for over five years. They appear to go to battle at least once a week. We're looking at about 250,000 bodies lost down in the canyons. Granted, most of them are decayed or scavenged before too long, but a pile of thirty dead isn't really very large in the scheme of things.

[LazerWulf]

Got into a discussion about this over on the Tor.com Way of Kings re-read. I seem to have (independently, since I only just now found this thread) come up with the idea that the Shattered Plains were Urithiru turned to stone, that the "plains" were the tops of buildings, and that the "chasms" were the streets and alleys, and "The Tower" was a literal tower were they would watch for oncoming highstorms.

 

As to why all the "buildings" were the same height, and essentially ground level, I keep thinking about the city built into the side of a mountan (Kharbranth? I can't remember exactly) as protection from the highstorm, and that the city would have been carved out from the ground in a similar manner, and for a similar reason. Since the city is being built "down" and not "up", it would make sense that the buildings would be all the same height, except for the tower, which is where the town watch (or the Stormwardens, maybe?) would warn the citizens of an oncoming highstorm, and the people would "batten down the hatches" so to speak. The wind would blow harmlessly over the tops of the buildings, and the water would pass through the streets/canals, washing away anything or anyone that was carelessly left outside. (The Tower itself seems to have been big enough to presume that it was built specifically to withstand the highstorms.)

 

As to why the city would have been turned to stone, I have no idea, but I cannot help but think that it has something to do with the Splintering of Honor. (As for the how, I did not think about Soulcasting, though in retrospect, it does seem obvious).

[Oudeis he/him]

In an average battle, it could be argued that thousands can die. The Alethi have been at war on the Shattered plains for over five years. They appear to go to battle at least once a week. We're looking at about 250,000 bodies lost down in the canyons. Granted, most of them are decayed or scavenged before too long, but a pile of thirty dead isn't really very large in the scheme of things.

 

I disagree. Thousands could not die per week. The largest battle there's ever been had 10,000 Parshendi. The average battle would have to be, at best, on one of the 10 or so plateaus that's even half as big as the Tower.

 

Someone with real-life military knowledge help me here with the specific numbers, but the number of troops you lose before you retreat is shockingly low. Like 10%. And it was expressly said that the Parshendi are known to disengage long before you'd normally expect.

 

It was months between fights on the Tower. The average normal battle would be, at best, half that size, so 10,000 troops total rather than 10,000 per side (I think even that is generous). If the Parshendi stayed until they lost 10% of their troops, that would still be less than a thousand (Parshendi have 5,000, lose 10% = 500 lost, Alethi bring 5,000, lose <10%, means <500 lost, combined lost <1,000). And that's in the largest conceivable non-Tower battle.

 

I've done the math and I think 250,000 is generous but... actually surpringly close to my own number, so I wonder how we came so close on such differeing premises. But that's spread across six years, and across ten Alethi camps. There cannot possibly any bodies that would survive more than three or four highstorms in the chasms without being sent out wherever the water drains, so it's not like there's an endless supply of bodies. At my calculations, it's about 800 bodies per week. If you assume a generous four weeks before a body is claimed by the storms, that's 3200. If every single body made it all the way to the Alethi side every time, which is an unreasonable assumption, you'd have that many. If you assume Sadeas has a bigger chunk of the chasms than any other highprince, the way he's got a bigger chunk of the permanent bridges and a bigger chunk of just about everything else, let's give him a 20% haul on dead bodies, twice what you'd expect if everyone shared them equally. That's 640 bodies at any given time. One pile of 30 bodies is something like 5%.

 

I think my original point was this. To find a pile of 30 bodies and have it be relatively unremarkable, that must assume that EVERY body from the plains ends up at the Alethi edge. If the water were draining Stormward, it would drag many, many of the bodies with it. Where does the water go? Why aren't there pools in the dips of the chasms?

[Gloom he/him]

Ahh, we came close to the same numbers because I misspoke, but figured correctly. In a given week (not necessarily per battle), thousands could die. I got this by figuring a smaller cost per battle spread amongst the ten camps. If any one prince lost more than your estimates per battle on a reoccurring basis, it is likely their house would fail.

 

I agree that most of the bodies wouldn't last very long, but I'd argue that many of them would at least temporarily be pushed into the shallow western end of the canyons by highstorms before being pushed to the eastern side of the plains where they are likely eaten by scavengers. For the number of weapons that are found with the dead, I'd say that the flash floods that move through the canyons are under a lot of pressure.

 

I wouldn't be surprised if the stone bottoms of the canyons are a type of sandstone that is highly porous. This could allow uneven erosion of the canyon floors and still allow drainage. It the walls are soulcast stone, that could be why they are more durable than the stone beneath them. It's also likely that the stone floor is covered in enough jetsam from the highstorm flash floods that the difference might not stand out under casual inspection by someone without training or reason to look for these differences.

 

To be honest, I think Brandon may be the only one capable of answering the issue with the varying canyon depths to anyone's satisfaction.

[Oudeis he/him]

I wouldn't be surprised if the stone bottoms of the canyons are a type of sandstone that is highly porous. This could allow uneven erosion of the canyon floors and still allow drainage. It the walls are soulcast stone, that could be why they are more durable than the stone beneath them.

 

To be honest, I think Brandon may be the only one capable of answering the issue with the varying canyon depths to anyone's satisfaction.

 

Amen to "only Brandon knows".

 

I had not thought about rock porous enough that the floor IS the drainage. Interesting point.

[askthepaperclip he/him]

I think we are assuming far too much about the location relations between the physical and cognitive realms. My understanding is that Shadesmar is the cognitive realm for all worlds, not just Roshar. For example, I seem to recall Brandon hinting that an area of the map of Shadesmar (lower left corner?) corresponded to "a world we know" other than Roshar, ie Sel, or Nalthis, or whatever. This would make sense as a necessity for using Shadesmar for worldhopping.

 

Given that, unless Roshar has some extra significance in the Cosmere that we are unaware of, it is very strange that the map of Shadesmar happens to correspond perfectly to a map of physical realm-Roshar. How would someone from Sel be able to navigate Shadesmar if it is shaped like a world they have never visited? Given that we are talking about the cognitive realm, my theory is that the "shape" of Shadesmar is dependant on the mindset of the visitor: if their concept of "the world" is Roshar, then Shadesmar to them will reflect that. Could this be how world hopping works? Change your mindset to think of "the world" as Sel, and Shadesmar changes to reflect that; then you merely exit Shadesmar where you wish, and BAM, you are in Sel! Sorry, getting distracted...I don't know if this is a new theory or not, but I like and will start a new thread for its discussion. 

 

My point for Urithiru is, I'm guessing Shadesmar is far more maleable than the "Urithiru is in Shadesmar" folks are counting on. I doubt you can trust the "map" of Shadesmar to reliably relate to the physical realm in any way, given that the shape of Shadesmar probably reflects the perspective and biases of the mapmaker.

[Gloom he/him]

Hmmm, I assumed, and mind you this is just an assumption, that our map of Shadesmar is incomplete. That the corners of the map allow a traveler to move from one cognitive pool to the next. How I envisioned this was that the map of Shadesmar that we have corresponds to Roshars cognitive pool, but from Roshars cognitive pool, you could move to any of the other cognitive pools that are adjacent to it through an expanse.

 

It's still Shadesmar, so distance between worlds is fluid, cognitive activity is of greater consequence than distance. The Shadesmar that we see for Roshar would only correspond to Roshar, if Shadesmar overlapped every world in the same place who knows where you'd end up when you left Shadesmar. If you always exited Shadesmar in your world of origin, then how would you travel to new worlds? I believe that only by entering an expanse would you be able to move to a new cognitive pool, or layer of Shadesmar.

 

Like I said, this is just how I envisioned it, I don't have any basis for this hypothesis, and haven't really put a great deal of thought into it.

[Shardlet he/him]

Gloom's understanding is quite similar to my own.  Essentially, the map of Shadesmar in TWoK depicts only to the portion of Shadesmar which corresponds to Roshar.  The expanses in the corners represent the locations of other portions of Shadesmar which are not explicitly depicted on the map.  Each of these other portions correspond to another cosmere world specifically.  So, basically, there are four other cosmere worlds which border Roshar in Shadesmar in much the same way that Nevada is bordered by five other states.  Of course there are other cosmere worlds than just these five (including Roshar, of course), but just as you cannot drive from Nevada to Washington without first passing through at least Oregon or Idaho, you must pass through perhaps one or more other portions of Shadesmar to worldhop to say Nalthis from Roshar (this is of course just an example, Nalthis may in fact be one of the four border worlds to Roshar in Shadesmar).  

[Oudeis he/him]

Does this mean that time Shallan entered Shadesmar, she did so at the point on Shadesmar's map that corrolates to Khabranth? Does elevation matter? In Shadesmar, things above sea level are shown as oceans, and oceans are shown as land, with higher mountains at deeper seas. Does this mean if you stand in Roshar at the top of a mountain and enter Shadesmar, you'll appear at the depths of the sea?

 

I know the Palace was at the top of the mountain that shelters Kharbranth. I don't know how far down into the mountain the Palaneum or Jasnah's apartments are. Where they deep enough that Shallan was spared appearing in Shadesmar deep under the sea of glass?

[Shardlet he/him]

If it is not surface level to surface level, using Shadesmar to travel would be extraordinarily hazardous. 

[Oudeis he/him]

If it is not surface level to surface level, using Shadesmar to travel would be extraordinarily hazardous. 

 

I think we've seen that whether or not it's surface-level to surface-level, using Shadesmar to travel is extraordinarily hazardous.

[Shardlet he/him]

Yeah, but imagine if you added to that transitioning at the wrong place and coming out 100 feet amove the ground or perhaps worse, 100 feet within the ground.  This would mean that you would need to have intensely accurate geographical knowledge of the world of interest and its Shadesmar counterpart to even have a hope of reaching your destination safely.

 

I suspect that, since this is a cognitive transition, if you intend to end up on the surface you do, if you intend to come out within an underground room (such as a vault beneath Kredik Shaw) you do (assuming you are in the right corresponding location).

[marianmi]

Does this mean that time Shallan entered Shadesmar, she did so at the point on Shadesmar's map that corrolates to Khabranth? Does elevation matter? In Shadesmar, things above sea level are shown as oceans, and oceans are shown as land, with higher mountains at deeper seas. Does this mean if you stand in Roshar at the top of a mountain and enter Shadesmar, you'll appear at the depths of the sea?

 

I know the Palace was at the top of the mountain that shelters Kharbranth. I don't know how far down into the mountain the Palaneum or Jasnah's apartments are. Where they deep enough that Shallan was spared appearing in Shadesmar deep under the sea of glass?

 

Not necessary. It might be like that, since she ended up in water, and seems like Shadesmar has the topo reversed.

However, I like to believe she somehow used the Nexus of Truth, while Jasnah used the Nexus of Transition (given that her second surge is Transportation).

[Shardlet he/him]

She didn't end up in water though.  She was in a sea of glass beads which were manifestations of the cognitive aspects of everything.  But yes, functionally, the topo is reversed as shown by the Shadesmar map at the endpage.

Edited October 24, 2013 by Shardlet

[marianmi]

"sea of lost lights" would be where kharbranth is.

 

to get back at the OP question - Urithiru should be next to the Honor's pool. It should be pretty hidden/remote and not in plain view as the shattered plains.

[11thorderknight]

Regarding the geography of Shadesmar - the way I interpret it is that each of the little glass beads is the Cognitive aspect of an object in the physical realm, regardless of what the object actually looks like physically. Each bead is "1 physical unit" of whatever it is, whatever it sees itself as.

 

Therefore, on dry land, in a city or really anywhere else, there will be lots of discrete objects; things, rocks, creatures, trees, etc. These will all have their own glass bead in Shadesmar, making a big ocean of glass beads. Out at sea, though, aside from the occasional fish or what have you, there's only one, giant object - the water. In Shadesmar, this is represented by a large solid mass, which is perceived as land in Shadesmar. Hence, "land" and "sea" are reversed there.

 

This is also why you can use Shadesmar to travel between planets. Since there's nothing in outer space, there are no beads there in Shadesmar, and also no distance. Therefore, you can walk to the edge of Roshar, then take one step and be on the edge of another world. Whether you have to go up into the air to get to the edge of the atmosphere, that I don't know. But I'm pretty confident that in the Cognitive realm, distance and size is determined by cognitive presence.

Edited October 24, 2013 by 11thorderknight