Cosmere Battle Royale; AKA Who Would Win

[Scriptorian he/him]

Spheres are metal, aren't they? if so, pushing them away stops his stormlight and it is an instant loss.

Great reasoning, I hadn't thought of pulling the coins from behind before. But, ummm, spheres are not metal...They're glass, that's how you can see the gemstone glowing inside.

[jag519 he/him]

ah, ok, in my head i've been imagining them as like a metal ring with the glass sphere in the center. haha, I have no idea why I thought of it that way. Lol

[Dysphoric Kitten she/her]

Army Kholin versus Army Venture

Special units included (with Kel's and Kal's crews)

Kal's crew has decent training - above that witnessed in the climax. Dalinar has no blade, Adolin has his.

Vin has TenSoon, Elend is no mistborn, Sazed is present, and has his minds more than half full. No Atium.

Both spheres and coins can be found easily in camp.

There are mists, but Vin cannot draw on them more than when she killed the Lord Ruler, which is to say, she can only draw on them once, and it is only as good as a few refills.

There are highstorms, it is outside, and both have some kind of actual settlement. Setup is like a two-way siege. Both have enough food for the whole battle.

Marsh is not present. Nor are other inquisitors. No Koloss, no Parshmen. Wit is somewhere else.

Seems fair?

Edited October 3, 2013 by Tal Spektor

[Two McMillion he/him]

Why doesn't Elend get to be Mistborn?

[Dysphoric Kitten she/her]

I chose points in time where I believe they are balanced. At that time, Elend was no mistborn. Besides, we have a keeper on his side, and please remember that even mistborn are in very serious danger against a keeper.

But if you have answers to both scenarios, you may present them both.

[Two McMillion he/him]

Without Elend being Mistborn, I really think Army Kholin has this. First of all, their soldiers have much more experience than Elend's do, and I always got the impression there were more of them. Numbers are nearly everything in hand-to-hand combat. Further, the leadership of Army Kholin seems much superior to that of Army Venture. In a normal battle, I believe the advantage lies with Army Kholin.

 

The next question is one of whose magic is better. Allomancy will be frighteningly effective against the ordinary soldiers of Army Kholin, but I don't think it will help much against the Shardbearers. Allomancers can't push or pull on Plate or Blade for all practical purposes, and they have no defense against a Shardblade. Adolin will cut through everyone on the Venture side with ease, and I don't think Venture has the sheer numbers to oppose him without a blade or plate of his own. This means the winning strategy for Venture is to have Vin cut down as many of the ordinary soldiers as possible, which would eventually force Army Kholin to surrender (a single shardbearer can't win a battle, realistically). Perhaps a Mistborn could attack with coins from a longer range and wear down the Plate over time, but I think this would take too much time. However, a Mistborn could certainly avoid combat with the Shardbearer for as long as they liked.

 

This is where Kaladin comes in. I don't think he's quite the equal of a Mistborn, but he's enough to slow a Mistborn cutting through soldiers substantially. While Vin and Kal are battling with magic, the ordinary soldiers of Army Kholin will be defeating the ordinary soldiers of Army Venture, two Shardbearers at their head. I think Vin will eventually beat Kal, but the delay will be fatal to the overall battle.

 

You state that Sazed is dangerous to a Mistborn. This is technically true, but it's true for a very specific reason: Sazed can control his own weight. Since Mistborn reply so much on pushing and pulling metals, Sazed can surprise a Mistborn if the Mistborn pulls on one of his metalminds. We saw this in Vin's fight with the Lord Ruler as well. However, I shouldn't neglect that it's possible Sazed is more fit to fight a Shardblade wielder than a Mistborn would be. The reason for this is Feruchemical gold- it could be used to heal the damage caused by a Shardblade. Still, I'm of the opinion that doing so would sap his metalminds pretty quickly, and Sazed is really not a warrior, not trained from childhood as the Kholins have.

 

So, all that to say, in a straight up battle I believe Army Venture will lose. However, they may have the advantage in routes that aren't simply battling. TenSoon could impersonate an important army leader and order fatal charges at the wrong times; Vin could slip in and poison the food of Army Kholin. I'm not sure Elend would want to go the poison route, however. Dalinar himself wears his Plate all the time and thus probably can't be impersonated, though Adolin might be a viable target. If Army Venture can get TenSoon to be Adolin or someone close to him... then they might have a chance. But their chances aren't great on the actual battlefield, in my view.

 

Making Elend a Mistborn makes things look much move favorable for the Venture side. Vin can keep Kal busy, while Elend goes through the ordinary soldiers of Army Kholin. I don't think the Shardbearers will be fast enough to catch him, though they will probably be chasing him. Army Kholin has two choices at that point. Their two Shardbearers can help Kal against Vin (which makes her decidedly in danger), or they can keep pushing through the ordinary soldiers. In the first option, I give Army Venture a very slight advantage based on how long Vin can keep Kal and the Shardbearers busy. If she can do so long enough for Elend to make a dent in Army Kholin's forces, Army Venture has a chance. If the Shardbearers opt to keep attacking normal people, this battle will become a bloodbath, and it will reduce to whoever can kill enough ordinary soldiers faster than the other. I gave the advantage on that score to the Shardbearers once again.

 

There is one resource Army Venture has that hasn't been discussed- emotional Allomancy. Dalinar and Adolin certainly haven't been trained to resist it, so rioting their fear might be helpful, or the fear of the ordinary soldiers perhaps. However, the emotional allomancy would be fighting against the Thrill, which I suspect would be difficult. Further, I'm not sure this could be done while Vin or Elend was engaged in more direct combat.

 

On the whole I give the advantage to Army Kholin. I think this advantage could change based on three factors:

 

- The ability of TenSoon to impersonate some important person on the Army Kholin side.

- The ability of Vin or Elend to use emotional Allomancy while fighting hand to hand combat.

- If there are many Allomancers on the Army Venture side. I think enough Allomancers, maybe even just a few, could solidly tip the advantage back towards Army Venture. Allomancers are basically super-soldiers, and more common than shardbearers or windrunners. If there are enough of them, it would give Army Venture an edge.

[Dysphoric Kitten she/her]

Epically done, McMillion! I still disagree with everything you said about Sazed, though. You seem to have forgotten the rest of the crew, as well.

It was quite clear to me that blade injuries are not healable, but I might be wrong. I thought his biggest advantage against standard soldiers is his Gold, while against empowered ones, it is Steel. In both cases, Tin and Pewter, along with Bronze, are of importance. Zinc might help a bit.

Also, I assumed (and you matched my assumption here), that we only have the eight metals and Gold. If we gave the Mistborn the rest of the metals (think Bendalloy and Cadmium), they could have a great advantage.

Oh, and never forget - Scadrians have the night advantage. It there are skirmishes then, they have the upper hand in those.

[Two McMillion he/him]

Epically done, McMillion! I still disagree with everything you said about Sazed, though. You seem to have forgotten the rest of the crew, as well.

 

 

I realized that near the end. How many Allomancers do you see on the Venture side? Ham's presence will be helpful, as will Breeze's, I think. Ham might be able to distract Kal so the Mistborn can do their work. Breeze seems to be able to affect a couple hundred people, so perhaps he can sooth away the will to fight, though he'd be fighting the Thrill, as I said.

 

It was quite clear to me that blade injuries are not healable, but I might be wrong. I thought his biggest advantage against standard soldiers is his Gold, while against empowered ones, it is Steel. In both cases, Tin and Pewter, along with Bronze, are of importance. Zinc might help a bit.

 

I read somewhere that WoB was Feruchemical gold could heal Shardblade injuries. However, my beef with Sazed is not in his abilities, but in the fact he's not a warrior. Yes, I know he fought during the siege, but he wasn't dealing with anything like a Shardblade then, nor did he actually do very well, in the end.

 

Also, I assumed (and you matched my assumption here), that we only have the eight metals and Gold. If we gave the Mistborn the rest of the metals (think Bendalloy and Cadmium), they could have a great advantage.

Oh, and never forget - Scadrians have the night advantage. It there are skirmishes then, they have the upper hand in those.

 

The people who can burn tin have the night advantage. Having Vin storm Kholin camp at night might certainly have its uses- and give TenSoon a chance to take someone's body.

 

I still think Army Kholin has the advantage in a straight fight, so Army Venture will need cunning and subterfuge to win. But when have they not, I suppose.

[happyman he/him]

I read somewhere that WoB was Feruchemical gold could heal Shardblade injuries. However, my beef with Sazed is not in his abilities, but in the fact he's not a warrior. Yes, I know he fought during the siege, but he wasn't dealing with anything like a Shardblade then, nor did he actually do very well, in the end.

 

He did very poorly indeed in Well of Ascension.  He only managed to keep that gate entirely free of ravening Koloss, more or less by himself, for a couple of hours.  Poor, poor Sazed and his limited powers.

[Dysphoric Kitten she/her]

I realized that near the end. How many Allomancers do you see on the Venture side? Ham's presence will be helpful, as will Breeze's, I think. Ham might be able to distract Kal so the Mistborn can do their work. Breeze seems to be able to affect a couple hundred people, so perhaps he can sooth away the will to fight, though he'd be fighting the Thrill, as I said.

But both have subcrews! We see Breeze's in recruiting, and hear that Ham is "Head of Security", which means both have more allomancers with them!

I read somewhere that WoB was Feruchemical gold could heal Shardblade injuries. However, my beef with Sazed is not in his abilities, but in the fact he's not a warrior. Yes, I know he fought during the siege, but he wasn't dealing with anything like a Shardblade then, nor did he actually do very well, in the end.

I wouldn't say that it is very easy to heal a blade injury, how much of his minds would it take?

I see what you mean. I still think he could Steelrun some more, but he seems to not do that much, not his strategy.

The people who can burn tin have the night advantage. Having Vin storm Kholin camp at night might certainly have its uses- and give TenSoon a chance to take someone's body.

 

I still think Army Kholin has the advantage in a straight fight, so Army Venture will need cunning and subterfuge to win. But when have they not, I suppose.

Not the Tin people. The Scadrians, who are used to dealing with it. They have been trained to fight in there, they know what to do. The Rosharians, on the other hand, would be disoriented. Not that most fights will happen then, only skirmishes and Scadrian raids.

I wonder what blades would do to a Kandra. (assuming they do not hit his spikes)

[Shardlet he/him]

But both have subcrews! We see Breeze's in recruiting, and hear that Ham is "Head of Security", which means both have more allomancers with them!

 

I wouldn't say that it is very easy to heal a blade injury, how much of his minds would it take?

 

I'm not sure about the number of allomancers available to Army Venture.  The events at the end of WoA likely depleted them substantially.  there is little mention of other allomancers loyal to Elend in HoA if I recall.  Ham being head head of security likely is the case since he had the most military training and experience of anyone in Elend's inner circle.

 

As to Feruchemical gold healing a blade injury, I can readily get behind healing and arm, a leg or eve a chunk of torso.  But, I doubt it could heal any cut that would've resulted in burned out eyes death.  Before you point to Miles being healed of several gunshot wounds, know that gunshot wounds are rarely instant death.

 

As to the night advantage, that would only be an advantage if the fighting were at night.  Scadrial was darker because of the ash in the air, but it was not dark all the time.  As to actual night fighting, Elend's army has little experience with night fighting.  They hadn't even been out in the mists until the run up to Fadrex.  In contrast, Alethkar is a land of war and conquest.  On top of which, the army has been fighting regularly for the last 5 years.  They have more experience, are better trained, and are better fed.  Also, I would be astounded if Dalinar had not trained his armies in night fighting.  Fighting is just too much a part of the Alethi way of life.

Edited October 6, 2013 by Shardlet

[Dysphoric Kitten she/her]

Good reasoning Shardlet! I ceremoniously take my hat off, for you have got some skills!

 

One note: I did not mean to say 'night advantage', I meant to say 'being used to mist tactics' (mist is said (MB1Ch1) to not only obscure the sight (in the various ways it does), but also diffuse sounds and make them harder to locate/decipher)

 

Despite the above two lines, I submit to your control, oh Shard of Reasoning.

[Carcinios he/him]

Shai vs Shallan art contest?

[Gamma Fiend he/him]

I was going to say Shallan at first, because she has, I believe, a better drawing/art skill. And her "picture perfect blink" ability will always guarantee more accuracy of what they're drawing.
But then again, Shai could just make a Forgery of whatever Shallan draws.

But they're not always perfect, so Shallan still wins.

Now the real battle begins: Who could take Galadon on in a contest to see who can be the most pessimistic sidekick?

Edited October 8, 2013 by Gamma Fiend

[Shardlet he/him]

The rub is art is not necessarily representative.  To be sure, Shallan has mad skills at representational drawing. But that says nothing about her artistic eye or artistic interpretation.  Shallan's perfect memory is essentially a regurgitation of what she saw when she took a memory.  Shai on the other hand, as a skilled forger clearly, has excellent skill as well (as evidenced further by her extraordinarily skilled actual art forgery).  But, she seems to posess a more perceptive mind and is appears to have reasonably strong artistic interpretation as well.  Given the info that we have so far, I think Shai would have the upperhand in producing a piece of artistic expression rather than a representation of a scene.

[happyman he/him]

The rub is art is not necessarily representative.  To be sure, Shallan has mad skills at representational drawing. But that says nothing about her artistic eye or artistic interpretation.  Shallan's perfect memory is essentially a regurgitation of what she saw when she took a memory.  Shai on the other hand, as a skilled forger clearly, has excellent skill as well (as evidenced further by her extraordinarily skilled actual art forgery).  But, she seems to posess a more perceptive mind and is appears to have reasonably strong artistic interpretation as well.  Given the info that we have so far, I think Shai would have the upperhand in producing a piece of artistic expression rather than a representation of a scene.

 

Upvote for this distinction, Shardlet.  Shai has almost literally devoted her life to art.  Shallan is good and has spent a lot of time doing it, but I think she doesn't yet have the fire which pushed Shai above and beyond.

[Mikanium]

The really interesting thing about that scenario is that Nightbloods hypothetically wouldn't be able to make Szeth kill himself, since he's forbidden suicide by the same oaths that make him kill other people.

 

I think what would end up happening is Nightblood would eventually get depressed enough by Szeth that it would think that it is evil.  So then what.. Szeth can't kill himself, nor can he destroy Nightblood, because it might destroy the oathstone.    Nightblood might be able to suicide.

[Shardlet he/him]

I disagree, if Nightblood can make other people kill themselves, he could make Szeth do it too.  Szeth's restriction against killing himself seems to be theologically and honorbound rather than by some supernatural prevention. While Szeth's honor which prevents him from killing himself would perhaps make it more difficult for Nightblood to get him to do it, Szeth's self-loathing at the murders he has committed would work to weaken that proscription.  I get the impression strongly that the only think thing which prevents Szeth from killing himself is his honor whereas most people would have little or no desire to kill themselves.

[Pechvarry]

/>Now the real battle begins: Who could take Galadon on in a contest to see who can be the most pessimistic sidekick?

Teft? All of bridge 4?

[Dysphoric Kitten she/her]

A really boring physics class drove me to both draw a few mistborn sketches and to compile the following list:

 

Hammond vs. Jasnah - philosophy contest

Hrathen vs. Sazed - debating

Wayne vs. Raoden - infilitration/spying/blending in. The judge will be a kandra

Shallan vs. Galladon - drawing cryptic symbols

Qwaan vs. Dalinar - prophecy. Dying people will serve as judges

Gaz vs. Clubs - being unpleasant

Lestebornis vs. Wit - talking appearrant nonsense, being hard to understand

Spook vs. Parshendi - hearing things

[Two McMillion he/him]

Wayne vs. Raoden - infilitration/spying/blending in. The judge will be a kandra

 

Bold added... :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

[jag519 he/him]

The important thing about Sazed in the Elend's group vs Dalanar's group is before Sazed fights he'll totally complain about not being a warrior before he kicks some chull.

 

He'd probably only use speed to dodge shard blades, not really on the attacking part, and he'd probably not use precision to hit eyeslits. He'd probably just dodge blades and punch plate tapping a lot of pewter. 

In his mind the fight would be about trying to to die and/or protecting the person he's ment to protect (in the Elend isn't a mistborn fight, Elend most likely. 

 

 

Also, with whether or not they have other allomancers than just the crew, I'm pretty sure from back FE most of the crew having their own subgroup and those allomancers staying, not too many of those died before Elend became mistborn.  So I'd say if this is a pre-mistborn fight we have to give at least a few pewter burners and some other mistings.

 

On the other hand, pre-Elend Mistborn also is before he really gets them to have a decent army, so other than the mistings and vin, the normal army would get slaughtered  (vin and some mistings could do a lot more damage to a normal army than shardbearers though, so they'd really be what protects the army from the other army)

 

Since spears are tipped with metal and the light eyes will have metal swords, and everyone has metal armor, vin (and if they have any coinshots) would have a huge advantage.

 

Because mistings and mistborn have such an advantage over the the normal fighters and the WoK group's army is better, I'd say, like everyone else, it comes down to what the best of both teams could do.  If Vin is alive she could probably take most of the army, especially if she has a Dboost and just throws everyone. If Vin is cut by a shardblade, the rest of Dalinar's army will be able to take the weak Venture army. 

[Mailliw73 he/him]

What about a Chromiummind Spinner against Fortuity, the Epic? Fortuity can sense danger but the Spinner could tap a lot of Luck and get lucky shots in to kill him, I think. Especially if the Spinner is attractive. But Fortuity does have enhanced senses and dexterity. What do you think?

Kaladin vs. Raoden in a competition so see who can build a better community and bond with its members better.

[jag519 he/him]

Wow, Kaladin v. Raoden in a building a community of hopeless into a legit group, that's a great question.

I'll need to think about that, I really can't even think of it. That is just such a good match up.

[Looter he/him]

The important thing about Sazed in the Elend's group vs Dalanar's group is before Sazed fights he'll totally complain about not being a warrior before he kicks some chull.

 

He'd probably only use speed to dodge shard blades, not really on the attacking part, and he'd probably not use precision to hit eyeslits. He'd probably just dodge blades and punch plate tapping a lot of pewter. 

In his mind the fight would be about trying to to die and/or protecting the person he's ment to protect (in the Elend isn't a mistborn fight, Elend most likely. 

 

 

Also, with whether or not they have other allomancers than just the crew, I'm pretty sure from back FE most of the crew having their own subgroup and those allomancers staying, not too many of those died before Elend became mistborn.  So I'd say if this is a pre-mistborn fight we have to give at least a few pewter burners and some other mistings.

 

On the other hand, pre-Elend Mistborn also is before he really gets them to have a decent army, so other than the mistings and vin, the normal army would get slaughtered  (vin and some mistings could do a lot more damage to a normal army than shardbearers though, so they'd really be what protects the army from the other army)

 

Since spears are tipped with metal and the light eyes will have metal swords, and everyone has metal armor, vin (and if they have any coinshots) would have a huge advantage.

 

Because mistings and mistborn have such an advantage over the the normal fighters and the WoK group's army is better, I'd say, like everyone else, it comes down to what the best of both teams could do.  If Vin is alive she could probably take most of the army, especially if she has a Dboost and just throws everyone. If Vin is cut by a shardblade, the rest of Dalinar's army will be able to take the weak Venture army. 

 

 

I don't think the whole Army with mistings and Vin and Elend and the rest of the thieving crew would be a fair representation of how much Investiture each group would have.  Elend was effectivly a first gen Mistborn while Vin was the Champion of BOTH Scadrial Shards.  The other mistings would be good but that is like fighting a Herald and The Lord Ruler at the same time with several people with more powers that they have had for a while.  Now take the Rosharan Shard bearers, Dalinar, Adolin, Elokhar, fabrial weilders Jasnah, Navani, Shallen, and throw in Kaladin, then add it all together to Talenel and have the armies be of similar composition and give both sides limited resources and see how well they do.  I think Taln, and Dalinar's experience at war carry the day.