aeromancer he/him Posted September 17, 2013 Report Share Posted September 17, 2013 (edited) Disclaimer: Obviously Kelsier is a "good guy". However, there is a ton of evidence to suggest otherwise which makes no sense, but is fun to do. Exhibit A: Kelsier advises Vin to keep her earring in - which is a Hemalurgic spike! Exhibit B: Kelsier destroys the Pits of Hathsin, forcing Elend + Vin to look for the atium cache - the source of Ruin's power1 Exhibit C: Kelsier kills the Lord Ruler - the only person holding back Ruin! Exhibit D: Keliser ordered his brother to infiltrate the Steel Ministry - to become an Inquisitor! Rally to the Confederate Flag. All hail practical jokes!! Edited September 17, 2013 by aeromancer 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rubix he/him Posted September 17, 2013 Report Share Posted September 17, 2013 Exhibit C is getting tossed out because it's completely false. Kelsier may PLAN to kill the Lord Ruler, but he certainly isn't the one who actually does it. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Morsk he/him Posted September 18, 2013 Report Share Posted September 18, 2013 Kelsier pushes Demoux into killing that guy who really didn't have to die. Dueling someone to the death for honor, or executing for insubordination, or whatever it was, is really excessive. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Oudeis he/him Posted September 18, 2013 Report Share Posted September 18, 2013 Exhibit B: The Pits don't produce atium very fast. Elend and Vin could only have used it to gain a VERY small amount of atium in the time they had, if they were willing to force people to work in insane conditions. A more compelling argument, considering where they eventually FOUND the atium cache, is that he's a villain by destroying the Pits, because this meant Vin and Elend had no reason to go there and discover what they'd eventually discover. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shardlet he/him Posted September 18, 2013 Report Share Posted September 18, 2013 If we accept Exhibit A on the premise that Ruin whispered to Kelsier that should keep the earring 'just in case', then we have to also label Vin as a villain because she released Ruin from his prison as a result of hearing his promptings as well. Exhibit D is unlikely since the plan was only for Marsh to become an obligator. The Inquisitor's taking such a rapid interest in Marsh was completely unexpected. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DocHoliday he/him Posted September 19, 2013 Report Share Posted September 19, 2013 Exhibit E: Miles Hundred Lives There are NO Heroes and Viliians. Only people with plans and agendas. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Claincy he/him Posted September 19, 2013 Report Share Posted September 19, 2013 Why not: Exhibit F: Wanton slaughter of nobles and any who serve them. (Slaughtering anyone/everyone who represents what you oppose *is* a fairly villainous thing to do ) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scriptorian he/him Posted September 19, 2013 Report Share Posted September 19, 2013 Exhibit G: Intentionally dying when he's such a cool character. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shardlet he/him Posted September 20, 2013 Report Share Posted September 20, 2013 Why not: Exhibit F: Wanton slaughter of nobles and any who serve them. (Slaughtering anyone/everyone who represents what you oppose *is* a fairly villainous thing to do ) I would say that in TFE he was not a villain. He may have played into Ruin's hand (was probably manipulated by Ruin). But, by all appearances he really did care. And, judging by Marsh's comment at the end of AoL, still does. Now that being said, Brandon has said that Kelsier was a psychopath. He killed without compunction. His POV's gave no impression that he was bothered in any way by wantonly killing nobleman. If I recall, Brandon also said that in another story and setting, Kelsier would likely be a villain. So, in TFE, a good guy, but not a Good Guy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Claincy he/him Posted September 20, 2013 Report Share Posted September 20, 2013 I would say that in TFE he was not a villain. He may have played into Ruin's hand (was probably manipulated by Ruin). But, by all appearances he really did care. And, judging by Marsh's comment at the end of AoL, still does. Now that being said, Brandon has said that Kelsier was a psychopath. He killed without compunction. His POV's gave no impression that he was bothered in any way by wantonly killing nobleman. If I recall, Brandon also said that in another story and setting, Kelsier would likely be a villain. So, in TFE, a good guy, but not a Good Guy. Nobody is denying that. I think we all already know that The point of the thread was just to have fun pointing out his more villainous features. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aeromancer he/him Posted September 22, 2013 Author Report Share Posted September 22, 2013 Absolutely, Lord_Ffnord! The great thing about Brandon's characters is that they (usually) have villainous and heroic aspects. (Notable exceptions include Elend, Dalinor etc.) Even the Lord Ruler can be viewed as a hero. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GreyPilgrim he/him Posted September 22, 2013 Report Share Posted September 22, 2013 Although it is kind of hard to say he was a villain when he saved all of Scadrial by holding onto Preservation after Leras died until Vin took it up. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Oudeis he/him Posted September 22, 2013 Report Share Posted September 22, 2013 Although it is kind of hard to say he was a villain when he saved all of Scadrial by holding onto Preservation after Leras died until Vin took it up. While I agree with you, one huge act of 'good', especially when it required no sacrifice on his part (and may have been a benefit to him, easing his transition into death) does not invalidate the evil he did in life. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GreyPilgrim he/him Posted September 22, 2013 Report Share Posted September 22, 2013 I was being mostly sarcastic, but I agree with the general statement that Kelsier did some extremely bad stuff when he was alive. The aforementioned killing of nobility is inexcusable. I would not in any way call him a villain, though. He had many great motivations, and those that were not so great were at least justifiable to some extent. I do not see how taking up Preservation "eased his transition into death", though. He had already been dead for several years by then, though he was not in the same place as other Scadrians go post-death. They go to the Spiritual Realm, but he was with Sazed. He is, however, with Kelsier—who refused to "Go toward the light" so to speak, and has been hanging around making trouble ever since he died. I have always assumed that this is referring to the Cognitive Realm. When you refer to easing his transition into death, do you mean moving from the CR to the SR? Because I do not believe that this occurred. Maybe I am over analyzing, but hey what else are we here for? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arachiel she/her Posted December 15, 2013 Report Share Posted December 15, 2013 Exhibit A: Kelsier advises Vin to keep her earring in - which is a Hemalurgic spike! Rally to the Confederate Flag. All hail practical jokes!! Sanderson has said specifically that Kelsier was not spiked, so the fact that he told to Vin to keep the earring in was completely coincidental: http://www.theoryland.com/intvsresults.php?kw=spiked (<-- interview question #2) Rally to the Confederate Flag. All hail practical jokes!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shardlet he/him Posted December 18, 2013 Report Share Posted December 18, 2013 Sanderson has said specifically that Kelsier was not spiked, so the fact that he told to Vin to keep the earring in was completely coincidental: http://www.theoryland.com/intvsresults.php?kw=spiked (<-- interview question #2) Rally to the Confederate Flag. All hail practical jokes!! Not necessarily coincidental. Although Kelsier was definitely not spiked, Brandon has said that Kelsier was essentially a psychopath and that Ruin had the ability to influence people who are unhinged. Couple Kelsier's psychopathy with what happened to him at the pits (where he snapped) and you have a recipe for unhingedness. I think it is more than coincidental that Kelsier comes back to Luthadel with a plan to topple the biggest hindrance to Ruin's plans. I think Ruin influenced Kelsier's plan and strengthened his need to accomplish it. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arachiel she/her Posted December 19, 2013 Report Share Posted December 19, 2013 Not necessarily coincidental. Although Kelsier was definitely not spiked, Brandon has said that Kelsier was essentially a psychopath and that Ruin had the ability to influence people who are unhinged. Couple Kelsier's psychopathy with what happened to him at the pits (where he snapped) and you have a recipe for unhingedness. I think it is more than coincidental that Kelsier comes back to Luthadel with a plan to topple the biggest hindrance to Ruin's plans. I think Ruin influenced Kelsier's plan and strengthened his need to accomplish it. Oh, okay, I thought Ruin could only affect people with metal in them. I didn't realize he could influence people otherwise as well. I did wonder a lot about whether Kelsier had been influenced by Ruin (because it did make sense), and I assumed that when Sanderson said Kelsier wasn't spiked, that meant that he hadn't been influenced by Ruin. However, that coupled with the earring statement still doesn't make Kelsier villianous. I'm guessing that Ruin's influence on Kelsier was pretty small (with everything that had happened to Kelsier, I'm sure it didn't take much to get the ball on the whole plan rolling), and it's not like he knew the earring was Hemalurgic. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shardlet he/him Posted December 19, 2013 Report Share Posted December 19, 2013 ...and it's not like he knew the earring was Hemalurgic. I absolutely agree. I doubt that Kelsier knew anything about hemalurgy except that Inquisitors had spikes in place of eyes. Even then, he knew only that inquisitors were impossibly powerful. I did not see any indication that he connected the power with the spikes. If he did, I would expect that he would have shared that knowledge/suspicion with Vin and Dockson at least. The only stuff he really kept secret was some personal stuff and things regarding his plan to establish himself as a religious figure to draw the Skaa together. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheWarriorPoet he/him Posted May 24, 2014 Report Share Posted May 24, 2014 (edited) Disclaimer: Obviously Kelsier is a "good guy". However, there is a ton of evidence to suggest otherwise which makes no sense, but is fun to do. Exhibit A: Kelsier advises Vin to keep her earring in - which is a Hemalurgic spike! Exhibit B: Kelsier destroys the Pits of Hathsin, forcing Elend + Vin to look for the atium cache - the source of Ruin's power1 Exhibit C: Kelsier kills the Lord Ruler - the only person holding back Ruin! Exhibit D: Keliser ordered his brother to infiltrate the Steel Ministry - to become an Inquisitor! Rally to the Confederate Flag. All hail practical jokes!! Exhibit A - He didn't even knew what is hemulargy hell no one in the whole world knew about it except TLR and inquisitors. Exhibit B - Firstly he didn't knew it was source of power of some god, secondly I think he helped Vin and elend when he destroyed those pits because every Lord who attacked luthadel was after Atium and if the pits weren't destroyed then they would have taken control of pits and then it would have been a cakewalk for ruin to aquire his power back. Exhibit C - Kelsier planned to kill TLR, didn't actually killed him, then again No one even knew about ruin so thinking of kel doing anything to help ruin is very unlikely. Exhibit D - He just asked his brother to be an obligator and look for a way to kill inquisitors, which he eventually did and helped rebellion by killing many of them. Sorry i didn't read annotations so I don't know if any of them were already rendered false by Brandon, this is just based on simple reading of the books Edited May 24, 2014 by TheWarriorPoet Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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