"Symbol heads"

[Bloodfalcon he/him]

Another topic that I have not had time to search through the forums for past a couple pages: Do we know who the Symbol-headed beings are yet?

It seems to me like the only other symbols we have really seen so far that wouldn't be recognizable letters or glyphs would be the connected symbols on the Knights Radiant map. After finding the explanation from Brandon in one of his Q&A sessions, the connection seemed pretty obvious to me -
 

There were 10 orders of Knights Radiant. Each order was based on a combination of two of

 

the "smaller" magic systems in this world, so to speak. You combine two of them together and they each 

 

had something kind of "their own". So if you look at the map in the front of the magic system and you 

 

mark circles that include one large circle and two of the smaller circles in between, you can find the 10 

 

orders right on there. The mini circles are the powers and the big circles represent the orders and the 

 

essences and things like that. So one big circle, two little circles equals an order of Knights Radiant.

 Is it a popular theory that the symbol-headed beings are some representation of individual powers expressed on that map? Each one might give the specific power that the symbol represents. Maybe you have to touch them to use it or something. Has this been debunked?

[Shardlet he/him]

Very little is known about the nature of the symbolheads.  In a Q&A someone referred to them as 'truthspren' and Brandon said that was an acceptable name for them for the time being.  He later referred to them as 'cryptics'.  As to their nature or there effect there is virtually nothing known.  At least the one that Shallan communicated with required a personal truth to establish a bond of some sort.  Upon supply of a powerful truth she was transported to Shadesmar where she communicated with the cognitive aspect of the goblet which she soulcast to blood.  The prevailing theory is that the cryptics enable Shallan's soulcasting in some fashion. 

 

I have not yet heard it posited that the cryptics grant different powers based upon the symbol they have.  It is conceivable that the symbol correlates with at least one of the radiant orders but no information is known for sure about this that I am aware of.

[Bloodfalcon he/him]

Oh, ok, there has been a lot of classifying that I have not read about. Thanks!

I need to go back and read that goblet scene again, but do I remember correctly that she was inches from one of these cryptics and then sort of... flailed? her touching it might have been a piece of it. I mean I don't think we have seen many soul casting scenes yet, but I doubt we'll see people constantly reaching for invisible beings - maybe you learn to call them toward you or something of the sort. Just thoughts!

[Shardlet he/him]

Well, in the scene where she travels to Shadesmar the second time, the cryptic indicates it is always around her when she asks in her mind if it is there.  Also, in the goblet scene she reaches out and feels something (though she is not clear on the nature of that sensation).  It doesn't seem though that reaching out to touch it is required for soulcasting.  We have not seen (nor has Shallan observed) any indication of Jasnah reaching out to touch anything other than the object being soulcast.  Personally, I am not convinced that the cryptics facilitate Shallan's soulcasting beyond transporting her to Shadesmar.  But, most people seem to be assured that they are integral to her soulcasting.

[Bloodfalcon he/him]

Yeah, with so little information I could see how one would be skeptical. It certainly would be kind of overkill to have that many different ones just to transport her to Shadesmar though.

[WeiryWriter he/him]

"Cryptics" is their canon name, insofar as it is what they refer to themselves as.  They are a type of spren.

 

As for their symbols matching those on the inside cover, I would say no.  If I remember correctly the inside-cover symbols that correspond to the radiant-orders/surges are glyphs and the cryptic-symbols are not glyphs.  Granted I could be wrong about them being glyphs but I still don't think your theory is correct.  One reason is Sylphrena isn't a Cryptic and she grants some of the powers.  Two it is implied that Cryptics are the spren for just one order, Shallan's, since Jasnah doesn't appear to see them.

 

As for the requirement to touch them... I highly doubt it.  Spren are primarily Cognitive entities and are only vaguely reflected in the Physical Realm so the the touch requirement just feels wrong to me.

 

On the Cryptics-Soulcasting point.  Cryptics have a similiar relationship to soulcasting as Sylphrena has to the Lashings.

[Bloodfalcon he/him]

I'm going to disagree with you there, Wiery. If you take that quote from Brandon and consider where the emphasis may have been on the sentence, he may have been saying that we are wrong to consider those symbols to be glyphs, not that they do not represent the particular essences/ideals of each Order. Notice two of the essence symbols are red. One looks much more likely to be blood than fire, and could have been the symbol of the Cryptic that was next to Shallan when she turned the goblet to blood. 

 

Also, Shallan doesn't appear to see the Cryptics either, does she? Only when she draws pictures of them with her special talent, I thought. Does she have a more visual encounter in Shadesmar? And based on that picture at the front, it looks to me like the different orders are linked in a fashion. Could be that some spren work for both. Rock can see Syl, if that makes any difference.

I don't mean to say I am right, I'm just saying that this response from Brandon doesn't invalidate the idea. 

[Shardlet he/him]

There is no interaction or specified appearance of a cryptic in either of the Shadesmar visits.  I'm pretty sure that neither the cryptic's symbols or the radiant symbols are glyphs.  Whether they correspond to each other is unknown.  Weiry is quite correct that Syl, who supplies Kaladin's surges, is not a cryptic and therefore it is unlikely that there is a class of cryptics which corresponds to each order.  As to the color of the radiant symbols, I think it is more closely tied to the gem color (Ruby/fire Garnet/blood) than to the essence associated with the gem (unless there is a lot of purple metal on Roshar  ).

[Bloodfalcon he/him]

There is a stormlight wiki article that lists the essences as glyphs, but there is no reference confirming that and I would say that label a guess that is as good a guess as any. 

[Gloom he/him]

I'll agree that it is unlikely that their is a cryptic for each order, but I don't believe that all of the cryptics are truth spren. We know that their are ten different orders, and at least ten types of bonding spren. I'm of an opinion that the cryptics are a class of bonding spren that may comprise the spren of several related orders. I'm also of the opinion that Syl is a member of another class of bonding spren and that spren like her compromise other orders. That isn't to say that Syl is flexible in what order she represents, but rather that other spren that look similar to her may exist but be part of a different order altogether. For instance, the spren for Stone Wardens may also appear to look similar to Syl, be different, yet hold compatible beliefs. There may even be other bonding spren types that have yet to be revealed.

[Shardlet he/him]

What if the cryptics are related to voidbinding.  That would be a cool twist.  Kal/Syl, seems symbiotic where Cryptic/Shallan smacks of parasitic.

[Bloodfalcon he/him]

I badly want it to be the case that each type of spren facilitates a specific magic type -> ability combo. Just like in MB where a Metal belongs to a certain category, and has a specific ability. 

Do any of you know of a good thread to discuss this? It interests me most. All I know is that there seems to be different magics so far based on physical and cognitive realms, and that these spren seem to be the connection to them. It sounds like it parallels to the MB system pretty well, and Brandon said there is a unified theory surrounding these. Am I way off on this or could someone point me to the proper educational thread?

[Shardlet he/him]

Many of these things are scattered in different threads (mostly in the Stormlight Archive main sub-forum, less in the WoR sub-sub-forum).  Though I think the above post is the first posit of a cryptic/voibinding connection.  Most are focused on the KR.  Look for stuff on Syl, truthspren, cryptics, Shallan's Soulcasting, and spren coupled with surgebinding or KR.  In fact, I'd start with the last one and the first one.  In case you are unaware, there is a search function in the site.  The easiest way to carry this out is to navigate to the Stormlight sub-forum and conduct the search from there.  The default search finds postings that have all the search terms in the same post.  Click on the thread title in the search results and it will start at the posting of interest with the search terms highlighted. 

 

Edit: I may start a thread on the cryptic/voidbinding idea within the next couple of days.  So, I would request that perhaps you give me an opportunity to pursue that before starting a thread on it. Glad you like the idea.      

Edited September 25, 2013 by Shardlet

[Gloom he/him]

I'm partial to the idea that the cryptics are mostly of Cultivation. My reasoning is that they seem to require something in return for their gifts, a give and take system that would compliment Cultivation. Cultivation is about giving of yourself and reaping the rewards for your effort or sacrifice. I spend time and effort cultivating a garden, and I get a bountiful crop in return. The truth cryptic, seemed to me, to be forcing Shallan to weed out her self delusions to access power. By forcing Shallan to face what she is, and what she has done, the truth spren can drive her to facing who she really is, to discard those things she clings to that are false, and guide her towards the path of radiance.

 

We know from at least one quote by Brandon that spren are neither good nor evil (At least not under normal circumstances). They have their nature, and they follow it. They are no more evil than a tiger or an elk. They follow their instincts and the path that was dictated for them by their Shards. They are attracted to a certain kind of person or a certain set of actions. The person they bond with may be good, or that person may be evil. Nohaden said that not all spren are as discerning as honorspren. In regards to a persons character this is true, but only in this regard. I believe that all spren are discerning, just not about the type of character the person they bond with possesses. They are discerning about those things which made a particular person bondable. In the case of honor spren, character is a part of the persons makeup that attracts them. In the case of other spren, we can (I think) pretty safely assume character is not a factor, or less of a factor.

 

RICK

Would that also mean that certain spren had an alignment or would some spren be catered toward good or evil or not?

BRANDON SANDERSON

They're creatures of nature and so good and evil aren't as, as big a deal to them. There are some that may be put in that sort of alignments, certainly honorspren are going to be of a certain type, but there are many spren of many different temperaments and they are kind of aligned to their temperament, having to do with who they are and what they are.

Edit: added quote for reference.

Edited September 25, 2013 by Gloom

[junior]

Very little is known about the nature of the symbolheads.  In a Q&A someone referred to them as 'truthspren' and Brandon said that was an acceptable name for them for the time being. 

 

iirc, the name "truth spren" comes from what Jasnah calls them when she sees a picture of them.

[Shardlet he/him]

I don't recall Jasnah referring to them as truth spren.  I'm pretty sure that that name is descriptive based on the interpretation of the person asking the question in view of the cryptic asking for a truth from Shallan.  However, the proper canonical name for them is Cryptics.