Alternative Davar/Ghostblood Idea (i.e., Kaladin did not kill Shallan's brother)

[Gloom he/him]

Actually, I think they are fake quarries, because the surface deposits don't represent the deeper vein that they would normally represent, so however they were monetized was likely fraudulent and w/o the Soulcaster, unsustainable. 

 

My understanding was that House Davar was mining the quarries themselves and selling the stone. I think if they tried to sell the quarries, they would be found out very quickly even with a working soulcaster. Mining is a science, Quartz isn't found in just any stone. Their problem is that they no longer have any stone to sell, and they have to hide that fact to keep their debt collectors from mobbing them to recover what assets they could from House Davar.

[hoser he/him]

My understanding was that House Davar was mining the quarries themselves and selling the stone. I think if they tried to sell the quarries, they would be found out very quickly even with a working soulcaster. Mining is a science, Quartz isn't found in just any stone. Their problem is that they no longer have any stone to sell, and they have to hide that fact to keep their debt collectors from mobbing them to recover what assets they could from House Davar.

We know they are in debt.  I think you acquire debt by borrowing.  To borrow, they need collateral.  What collateral do they not have anymore?  More deposits in the quarries.  It seems simple to me.  What am I missing?

[Gloom he/him]

I think it may have been clarity . You took a logic jump in your previous posts that some of us weren't following. From my understanding of soulcasting, they don't even need a quarry. They could just stack a bunch of rocks and soulcast them into quartz.

 

If I understand correctly, you're saying it doesn't matter how they got the quartz, they told their lenders they had the quarries and were mining them and took loans out on the future sales from those mines. Without a soulcaster to continue production, the lenders will come seeking to recover their losses from non-existent Quartz mines and find nothing. The misunderstanding was in the phrase he sold off fake quarries, when what you apparently meant was that he created debts based on the future production of fake quarries.

[hoser he/him]

Ah, clarity.  That one.  I remember it being marble, but it doesn't really matter what it was.  Thanks.  Why do I even try to communicate?  Do we violently agree now? Can I shut up? 

[Gloom he/him]

lol, it probably was marble. Didn't actually look it up. Bad me.

[Moogle]

You're positive that Kaladin killed Helaran based on the fact that he died around or before the Shadrbearer did? You're certain of this because the Shardbearer was a warrior from Jah Keved and happened to be a Ghostblood?

 

The information we have on Helaran's death is second hand and without a single shred of evidence to support it. No body, no expert witness, just one persons word and Helaran's continued absence, and that persons character was reputed to be of an unsavory nature. What do we know of Shallan's Father? Nothing, but we've been led to believe he was a bully and a schemer who sought the crown of Jah Keved and would ally himself with other unsavory characters to achieve his ends. This doesn't exactly fill me with confidence that he's a trustworthy source of information. We at least have a basis upon which to make our own observations about the kind of man that Shallan's father was by looking at his children, which appear to all be broken in some way.

 

I won't argue that it's impossible that Kaladin killed Helaran, but I'm certainly not certain of the fact, and I don't trust second hand information as if it were gospel. For all we know, Shallan incorrectly remembered her fathers words, or her father had reason to lie.

 

I'm certain of it because of those things and because this is a novel, not real life, which means bringing up the fact that the Shardbearer was Veden and setting up the timeline so Helaran disappeared at the same time as Kaladin killed the Shardbearer was an intentional choice on Brandon's part. He could have just had a character remark "I do not recognize this man" and leave it at that, but he did not. He then brought up Shallan's family's connection to the Ghostbloods.

 

Shallan's father was a schemer, yes, but we haven't even seen him. He also had nothing to gain from lying, and quite a bit to lose if Helaran returned. As for Shallan misremembering information... Shallan's tutors noted she had a remarkable capacity for memorization, and she has her Memory ability. I would put her up as one of the most trustworthy characters we have.

 

Given Brandon's coy hints at a mysterious death in the books, it leads one to look at either Helaran or Luesh. I think Luesh's death is tied to Helaran being found out; others disagree and claim the Ghostbloods killed him because he harbored some affection for the family despite never showing it. It's not guaranteed, but the Shardbearer-Helaran theory should definitely be in first place for plausible theories.

Edited October 3, 2013 by Moogle

[Gloom he/him]

I'll agree that your theory is the most likely. The evidence for your theory could easily be construed as foreshadowing. I will even go so far as to say that yours is an actual theory based on evidence while the others are simply educated guesses based on alternate possibilities that could result. I've yet to see a more convincing theory than yours, but it's still just a theory.

 

Until we have published proof of Helaran's fate, their is room for doubt. There is a lot we don't know about the Ghostbloods, Helaran, Luesh, and Shallan's father. I believe that the mysterious death of Luesh is even further evidence of your theory since we know that Amaram knows the identity of the Shardbearer. I believe that it is possible that Amaram took action in retaliation to the attempted assassination by having the Ghostbloods agent in House Davar removed. Alternatively, the Ghostbloods could have removed Luesh themselves to cover their tracks.

 

I still don't know anything for certain, and until I read the book, I will continue to lack certainty because all of these beliefs are based on a theory, and a theory is by definition uncertain. The point of the OP was to explore other possibilities. This becomes difficult when those who believe the prevailing theory continue to attack those possibilities because they don't conform to the prevailing theory.

[Moogle]

I apologize for coming across as attacking alternate theories. I should have worded my posts better.

 

Exploring alternate possibilities is important, and what's more I enjoyed this theory. That doesn't make we should ignore problems we find in alternate explanations. The best ways to explore a theory is to attempt to destroy it and see if it stands up to scrutiny and also to see what predictions it makes. I am certain on the Shardbearer-Helaran theory for now, but that doesn't mean new evidence wouldn't make me reconsider, which is why I am actively seeking new ideas.

 

I don't want to be seen as trying to attack new theories and making life difficult for the people who are writing them. Again, I apologize.

[Meg]

The problem is that Shardlet thinks 'fake quarries' don't have real minerals and so aren't valuable, while hoser thinks 'fake quarries' just means they're not natural because they were Soulcast. Just a definition mismatch!

 

I also am pretty much positive Helaran is dead. Yes, it's a 10 book series, but Shallan's father literally said he's dead. He didn't say "he's dead to me". I'm positive Kaladin killed him, but it is somewhat plausible that the Ghostbloods offed him. I don't think it's plausible at all to say he's still alive.

 

 

Shallan said that her father "proclaimed Helaran dead" (TWoK Chapter 8). This implies for my thinking that nobody -- perhaps not even Davar senior -- knows for sure if Helaran is dead or not. 

Somebody said it sounds to him like "He's dead for me." in a way that Davar sen. dismisses his son from the family. I like this possibility.

 

Here's really a lot of room for speculation.

 

About Luesh: Another possibility that he seemed to "work with" Shallan and her siblings, might be because he was given responsibility over the Soulcaster by the Ghostbloods and kind of feared punishment when they found out that the Soulcaster was broken.

I think, if Helaran would have been the Shardbearer Kaladin killed, this would have been, too, kind of a failure by Luesh (who presumably was involved in giving Helaran a set of Shards by the Ghostbloods). If that would have been the case I think the Ghostbloods would have replaced Luesh earlier to ensure that their goals could be accomplished.

 

I love speculating.

[Moogle]

About Luesh: Another possibility that he seemed to "work with" Shallan and her siblings, might be because he was given responsibility over the Soulcaster by the Ghostbloods and kind of feared punishment when they found out that the Soulcaster was broken.

 

I like this speculation, but why would the Ghostbloods have left Luesh's body in his room? You'd think if they were punishing him, they'd at least take him and torture a little or something. (Maybe they did, and just Soulcast his body back to 'normal' to make it seem like he died in his sleep? There's so many uses for Soulcasters...)

 

If Taravangian was connected to or high up in the Ghostbloods (there's some very overt signs), you'd almost think they'd bleed out anyone they could. Hmm. I'm still rooting for Amaram/Restares to have killed Luesh after finding out who Helaran was.

Edited October 4, 2013 by Moogle

[Shardlet he/him]

I'm still rooting for Amaram/Restares to have killed Luesh after finding out who Helaran was.

 

Seems like the Davars would be higher on Amarams hit list than Luesh if that were the case.  For him to kill only Luesh would indicate that he knew Luesh was a Ghostblood and also that the remaining Davars were not. 

[Moogle]

True enough. It's an issue with the theory.

 

I'm still a bit confused by Luesh having a pendant with the Ghostblood symbol on it, and the people meeting with Nan Balat having it tattooed on their wrists. Why would you want your secret organization to so visibly mark itself? If you aren't sure whether there are Ghostblood spies in your midst... just see if they're wearing a pendant/have tattoos. I had the exact same issue with the Dark Mark in Harry Potter, and I'd like to think that Brandon thought things through a bit more carefully than J.K. Rowling. Hence my (probably wrong) theory about the enforcers being sent after Nan Balat being stormwardens/part of Restares' group.

[Gloom he/him]

True enough. It's an issue with the theory.

 

I'm still a bit confused by Luesh having a pendant with the Ghostblood symbol on it, and the people meeting with Nan Balat having it tattooed on their wrists. Why would you want your secret organization to so visibly mark itself? If you aren't sure whether there are Ghostblood spies in your midst... just see if they're wearing a pendant/have tattoos. I had the exact same issue with the Dark Mark in Harry Potter, and I'd like to think that Brandon thought things through a bit more carefully than J.K. Rowling. Hence my (probably wrong) theory about the enforcers being sent after Nan Balat being stormwardens/part of Restares' group.

 

Placing a mark upon a person is not an uncommon occurrence in history. It can establish membership, ownership, or a means of identification. The risk of not marking someone in a secret organization can be greater than that of having your agents discovered. If a person has the mark they can be trusted, if they don't, they can't.

 

I find it interesting that Luesh wasn't marked. He wore a pendant. I can think of two reasons this could be. Luesh was a probationary member of the Ghostbloods who had yet to earn his mark, or the pendant is a tell to those in the know that Luesh was killed by the Ghostbloods.

[Moogle]

Placing a mark upon a person is not an uncommon occurrence in history. It can establish membership, ownership, or a means of identification. The risk of not marking someone in a secret organization can be greater than that of having your agents discovered. If a person has the mark they can be trusted, if they don't, they can't.

 

I would agree, except that the Ghostblood mark is so darn easy to replicate. It's distinctive. What's more, it's well known enough that Jasnah recognized it. Marks for secret organizations are valuable if they are both unremarkable (fake moles on the middle of your left hand, for example)/unknown outside of the organization. Once what a mark signifies is known, it becomes useless. Again, my issue with the Dark Mark in Harry Potter. (Unless of course the Dark Mark could be hidden by the Death Eater at will and/or verified by Death Eaters as being real because it's hard to replicate for non-Death Eaters).

Edited October 4, 2013 by Moogle

[Gloom he/him]

Kabsal was marked on his arm, but I find it difficult to believe that his mark was on his wrist. Had Kabsal been marked on the wrist, I doubt he would have been so difficult to spot. The mark on the enforcers was plain to see. I believe that the enforcer branch of the Ghostbloods are marked on the wrist, and that those who are covert are marked in harder to locate areas. I actually do believe that at some point, Kabsal was actually an ardent. He had quite a few of the known skills and background information that would be required by members of the Ardentia. He is most likely a defector. His mark was placed in a location that would be difficult to notice in the vestments of his supposed order. So some effort to maintain secrecy was being made.

 

As to replicating it, who would want one? Tattoos are permanent. Once you have the mark, you'll have to continue to wear it the rest of your life. If you're found wearing a false mark by the Ghostbloods, I can't imagine a good end for you. Even if you aren't, how much will your allies trust you? Even knowing that the mark was false and that you are an agent of infiltration, how can they be sure you remain on their side? What would be the repercussions to the masters of those who tried infiltrating the Ghostbloods and failed?

 

This still brings us back to the relevance, or lack there of, of Luesh's Pendent. Did he have it before he died? Was it placed on him as a mark of failure by his masters? Was he even a Ghostblood or just killed as a warning to the Davar's that the Ghostbloods meant business? If he had it prior to death, was he a probationary member? A deep cover spy who was trusted without a physical mark?

[Moogle]

As to replicating it, who would want one? Tattoos are permanent. Once you have the mark, you'll have to continue to wear it the rest of your life. If you're found wearing a false mark by the Ghostbloods, I can't imagine a good end for you. Even if you aren't, how much will your allies trust you? Even knowing that the mark was false and that you are an agent of infiltration, how can they be sure you remain on their side? What would be the repercussions to the masters of those who tried infiltrating the Ghostbloods and failed?

 

Tattoos don't have to be permanent, and with Soulcasters they could probably easily be added/removed (if you were willing to commit heresy and use it on a living human). If Ghostbloods have tattoos on their arms, the rational position for Jasnah to do in any situation where confidential information could leak (or if she's concerned about assassination attempts) is just to ask the suspect to take their shirt off. Kabsal would have been screwed if Jasnah had just mentioned to Shallan to take a look at his arm and report back on her findings. (If Kabsal refused, it would have to be for stupid reasons.) It's a horrible system for your spies. Enforcers, maybe it could be okay.

 

Enforcers still have the issue of being easy to imitate. If enforcers are recognized solely through their tattoos, it becomes incredibly easy to use that and say... go shake up Luesh and the Davars for information and free Soulcasters, making them think you're part of the Ghostbloods when you're not.

 

As for your allies trusting you... you could just tell them that hey you're wearing a temporary tattoo for a few days, here's my infiltration plan. Not that I'd recommend REAL infiltration (this is likely to get you killed), just short meetings where you can act as a Ghostblood then get out.

 

Luesh's pendant is something I am in the dark about. We don't even have confirmation he was a Ghostblood, just Nan Balat's musings. I'd bet that he probably was, though. His knowledge on how to work Soulcasters seems pretty good evidence.

 

On a side note about Kabsal, he was, I think, a normal ardent. The problem is that normal ardents in Kharbranth are corrupt and obviously moving patients for Taravangian to kill, making me think they're all in the Ghostblood conspiracy. It's rather funny that when Kabsal was recognized as an assassin, all the ardents suddenly said "Nope! Don't know him!". Particularly when he commented (seemingly genuinely to Shallan) about all the funny characteristics of the local ardents.

Edited October 4, 2013 by Moogle

[Cheese Ninja he/him]

On a side note about Kabsal, he was, I think, a normal ardent. The problem is that normal ardents in Kharbranth are corrupt and obviously moving patients for Taravangian to kill, making me think they're all in the Ghostblood conspiracy. It's rather funny that when Kabsal was recognized as an assassin, all the ardents suddenly said "Nope! Don't know him!". Particularly when he commented (seemingly genuinely to Shallan) about all the funny characteristics of the local ardents.

 

I don't think Taravangian is working with the Ghostbloods.  I think he's Restares, and thus working against the Ghostbloods.  Their murdering habits just seem very similar from an outsider's perspective.  We really don't know much about either one's goals at this point.  And if Restares and Taravangian turn out to be different people, we know even less.

[Moogle]

I don't think Taravangian is working with the Ghostbloods.  I think he's Restares, and thus working against the Ghostbloods.  Their murdering habits just seem very similar from an outsider's perspective.  We really don't know much about either one's goals at this point.  And if Restares and Taravangian turn out to be different people, we know even less.

 

What's your evidence? Mine comes from the fact that Kabsal, an ardent, was a Ghostblood. Other ardents are also very Ghostbloody, like the one that speaks to Dalinar at one point, saying that they will "speak again". Taravangian was speaking quite closely with an ardent when Shallan saw him alone in the gardens at one point. I admit that they could be part of Restares' group, but stormwardens seem somewhat opposed to ardents, purely due to the seeing the future thing.

[Gloom he/him]

Taravangian is the King of Kharbranth. He has ardents working for him in his hospital, he has Parshmen working for him in his Library, He has stormwardens working for him to predict High Storms. He also has surgeons, blacksmiths, merchants, day laborers, scholars, bureaucrats, and a variety of other people who are in his employ.

 

Yes, he does have stormwardens. He is a king of a port city. Even the City of Bells needs stormwardens to predict High Storms. Without them, he wouldn't be able to keep his port open. Every other High Noble we've seen has both ardents and stormwardens working for them side by side. The ardents handle the spiritual requirements of a kings people, such as the devotions, and offer advice as they may. The stormwardens predict the High Storms and offer additional advice. They may be opposed institutionally, but in practice they coexist within the houses of the nobility.

 

I don't think that the Ardentia are a unified organization. We know that their are splinter sects of Vorinism from Sigliz. Further, they are people. They may maintain some high moral values, but that won't prevent them from secondary loyalties. Kabsal spoke what I think would amount to heresy to Shallan when he praised the Knights Radiant by claiming they were the chosen Knights of the Heralds. If I'm not mistaken, the stance the church maintains in regards to the Knights Radiant is that they were a group of corrupt warriors that are better off forgotten. Additionally, the other ardents disavowed Kabsal, so he isn't the best example to use when trying to establish the goals of the Ardentia.

 

Taravangian could be Restares, he could be Thaidakar (unless someone figured out who this is and didn't tell me), or he could be someone else altogether. I favor the Restares theory, but I lack sufficient information to make a solid basis for my opinion. I'm not saying you're wrong, but I think it's pretty harsh to judge an entire organization based on a couple of members.

Edited October 8, 2013 by Gloom

[Moogle]

The ardents are definitely a hugely important organization. I don't contend that King Taravangian has stormwardens, but it's the ardents he's always mentioned as being with. I am taking most of the following from one of my previous posts on Stormblessed (it might be long enough to deserve its own thread, for which I apologize):

Ardents used to be very powerful. They then tried to take over all of Roshar, and were pulled down and essentially turned into property of kings.

As you might imagine, ardents probably wouldn't be happy with this state of affairs. After all, Kasbal, who claimed to be an ardent, remarked somewhat bitterly that his rights could hardly be protected when he was property.

And what about Kasbal? According to Jasnah, ardents around these parts didn't know him very well at all.

 

“I’ve begun investigating,” Jasnah said. “I should have done so immediately. Nobody quite remembers where this ‘Kabsal’ came from. Though he spoke familiarly of the other ardents to you and me, they knew him only vaguely.”

 

Yet, he seemed to intricately know them (or was a very good liar). What? Sure, you can say that the Ghostbloods (who he was apparently a part of) told him all about the local ardents, but how did they know them? And he did speak quite familiarly with them. If you read chapters with him in them, it seems implausible that he could act like that without actually knowing them. I don't buy that he's a stone-hearted pathological liar. I also don't buy that the ardents would be completely okay with a new face in Kharbranth, when things are secret there. The ardents have to move and collect patients from the streets, and they don't want anyone to know who shouldn't.

He comes off as genuinely liking Shallan as well. I don't think he would be able to lie that convincingly, to her, personally. He even tried to get her to take the jam, no matter what. He didn't want her to die. He cared for her.

I propose that the ardents did know Kabsal and lied when he turned up dead. The ardents seem incredibly shady. It's certainly not confirmed, but...

Ardents, after all, are the sole users of Soulcasters (excepting Jasnah and Shallan, who don't really use them). That gives them some tremendous power. Power over army supply lines, building materials...

So, what do you make of the Szeth interlude where King Taravangian's henchman uses a Soulcaster, when King Taravangian and his ardents don't have one that's public knowledge?

Well, ardents seem to completely control Soulcaster usage. They are the only ones who know how to use them, excepting the Ghostbloods - wait, ardents are a part of that, if you can believe Kasbal was actually an ardent!

In addition, we have a king, Taravangian, who steals terminally ill patients from his hospital, run by ardents, and kills them. How do they get undetected from the hospital, past watchful ardents (see: Shallan in hospital bed being watched over by an ardent) into the king's castle/secret room?

This king also seems to want to take over the world. He's murdering important political people, like powerful nobles and kings, leaving a power gap that he could fill.

Well, what do we have here?

A group of pissed off people in possession of the most powerful and important artifacts in the world, and only they have access to them. They once almost managed to take over the world.

We also have a group (Ghostbloods) who seem to have access to them as well. Shallan's father had one, and got it from them.

We have an ardent, who was a Ghostblood.

We have a king, without Soulcasters to use to save his own daughter, and yet his henchmen have Soulcasters (Szeth scene). He wants to take over the world.

What I'm proposing, to tie it all together, is that there is a group of ardents - maybe even all of them - that are part of the Ghostbloods. And that King Taravangian is a member of the Ghostbloods.

The ardents, who "belong" to Taravangian, are the people who bring people from the hospital, undetected, to be killed and their dying words recorded. They are the only people who CAN do it, and they have to be somewhat evil to actually obey orders to bring people to be killed.

Here's a fun quote:

 

Shallan could see that the king himself was passing nearby, chatting with a middle-aged ardent who had a long, narrow face.
The king often went strolling through the gardens on his midday walk. She waved to him, but the kindly man didn't see her. He was deep in conversation with the ardent.

 

The king talking with an ardent? Deeply? Innocent perhaps at a casual glance, but if you consider that the ardents might be evil...

The ardents, who once wanted to take over the world, are perhaps the leading force behind the Ghostbloods, a group which is itself seemingly evil. Kings fear being assassinated by them (Gavilar immediately jumps to the conclusion that the Ghostbloods ordered his assassination) and they appear to want to kill important political players, like Amaram. Taravangian is doing the same, also in order to take over the world.

I'm thinking the ardents never stopped trying to take over the world, they just tried to find a way to survive their failed attempt and keep on going.

Here's a quote:

 

"Just as Hatham wishes his partner in negotiations to know of his goodwill, I wish you to know of our goodwill toward you, Brightlord."
... "Why? What should it matter if I have goodwill toward you?"
The ardent smiled. "We will speak with you again."

 

We will speak with you. That doesn't sound like he's referring to Hatham, it sounds to me more like he's speaking about a group - the Ghostbloods. Also, note the way he ends. He smiles, and mentions that they will be speaking again. Creepy guy.

Anyways, I'm not sure my evidence here comes off completely convincing, and I'm not convinced entirely myself.

There are a few unexplained events in the book:

• King Taravangian's henchman with a Soulcaster. Taravangian couldn't even save his own daughter without Jasnah. Where did that Soulcaster come from? Well, we know the Ghostbloods have a supply (Shallan's father)...
• King Taravangian bringing ill patients from a hospital watched over carefully by ardents without detection. What?!
• Various small quotes which don't quite sound right and look suspicious in the right frame of mind.

If anyone has any explanations for these events besides my ardents-are-evil theory, I am more than interested. It seems quite likely that ardents are still trying to take over the world. They've managed to worm their way into the confidences of most of the political players.

 

Edited October 8, 2013 by Moogle

[hoser he/him]

Actually, Gavilar suspects Thaidakar, then Restares, but not the Ghostbloods specifically.  

 

The Ghostbloods seem to be operating similarly to Mr. T: destabilize, then take over. 

 

Amaram, who seems to be working with the stormwardens and Restares, associates the Ghostbloods with Thaidakar and considers them the opposition. 

 

I believe the situation with Jasnah soulcasting was contrived so that team Mr. T could study Jasnah while she was soulcasting.  Since they may have a real soulcaster, they may see whether Jasnah is using a Soulcaster or faking it. 

 

With the Ghostbloods attempting to assassinate Jasnah and Mr. T studying her, I've been assuming that Thaidakar and Restares are different, with Mr. T possibly being Restares or an ally.  I've thought that if Mr. T really wanted to assassinate Jasnah, he would send a more reliable assassin (he has several, including Szeth) and have it done out of his kingdom, to redirect suspicion. 

 

This discussion has me wondering whether Mr. T is both Thaidakar and Restares. 

 

  I think there is a secret society of ardents (the Ghostbloods) that are trying to take over the world and don't accept the restrictions put on them by the Sunmaker.  I don't think it is all of the ardentia. 

[Shardlet he/him]

Yet, he seemed to intricately know them (or was a very good liar). What? Sure, you can say that the Ghostbloods (who he was apparently a part of) told him all about the local ardents, but how did they know them? And he did speak quite familiarly with them. If you read chapters with him in them, it seems implausible that he could act like that without actually knowing them. I don't buy that he's a stone-hearted pathological liar. I also don't buy that the ardents would be completely okay with a new face in Kharbranth, when things are secret there. The ardents have to move and collect patients from the streets, and they don't want anyone to know who shouldn't.

 

It seems to me that Kabsal could easily be essentially playing a role with his interactions with both the ardentia and Shallan.  I don't see any reason to assume he is not doing so.  Perhaps he did indeed have feelings for Shallan.  But, those feelings could have begun as he was playing a part to make his frequent visits more plausible.

 

As to the Karbranthian ardentia, while at least some key members of the ardentia are in on Taravangian's extracurricular activities, it should not be assumed that most or even many of the ardents were.  In fact, it seems to me that the fewer that were involved, the better.  It seems that Taravangian, as well as his compatriots, would have a vested interest in making sure word didn't get out about the bloodletting.  As to the watchful ardents such as the one watching over Shallan, recall she was on suicide watch.  I don't see any reason to suspect that every patient in every hospital has an ardent watching over them.  Again, too many eyes and ears for comfort.

 

As to the ardents and Taravangian being evil, it appears that Taravangian is earnestly attempting to forstall or avoid the everstorm.  He has rationalized harvesting peoples lives (even those who would not die in a timely manner without intervention) with the need for the information provided by the death rattles.  He appears to have a plan which requires a lack of stability and unity among the nations.  It is not uncommon for people who are not evil to rationalize (they would say justify) atrocities for the greater good.  Even Jasnah defends the philosophical value of the ends justifying the means.  I think it is premature to categorize Taravangian as evil.

 

The ardents are even less clear.  While there appear to be ardents who have divided, or at least hidden, loyalties, I don't think there is nearly enough information to lump all, or even most, of the ardents together in this.  We have a very small sample of what appears to be a very large group.  Undoubtedly there are those in the ardentia who at least desire to regain the power and authority they once held.  But, we have only actually interacted directly with three or four ardents.  One of whom may not have actually been an ardent, one who appears completely benign, and one who spoke suspiciously.  Others, we have seen (such as the hospital ardents) but have only vague impressions of motivations and ideals.

 

In all, your idea seems possible, but I think the evidence is too thin to assign any likelihood to it.  Personally, I am more inclined to think of Taravangian's crew (including his stormwardens and bloodletting ardents), the Ghostbloods, and the Ardentia at large as three separate factions with some overlap.  But, we know so little about these factions that evidence for that idea is perhaps equally thin.  I look forward to Travangian POVs, Dalinar and Amaram interactions, and more Jasnah and Shallan interactions in WoR.  These three groups will give us much further insight into these factions.  

 

 

 

[Moogle]

As to the Karbranthian ardentia, while at least some key members of the ardentia are in on Taravangian's extracurricular activities, it should not be assumed that most or even many of the ardents were.  In fact, it seems to me that the fewer that were involved, the better.  It seems that Taravangian, as well as his compatriots, would have a vested interest in making sure word didn't get out about the bloodletting.  As to the watchful ardents such as the one watching over Shallan, recall she was on suicide watch.  I don't see any reason to suspect that every patient in every hospital has an ardent watching over them.  Again, too many eyes and ears for comfort.

 

While it would be best to minimize the number of ardents who could betray you, ardents take care of the patients in Taravangian's hospitals. All of them. They may not be watching every patient 24/7, but any ardent with eyes is going to start realizing that patients with terminal illnesses disappear remarkably fast. I think it's fairly plausible to say that most ardents in Kharbranth hospitals are in on Taravangian's plans.

 

s to the ardents and Taravangian being evil, it appears that Taravangian is earnestly attempting to forstall or avoid the everstorm.  He has rationalized harvesting peoples lives (even those who would not die in a timely manner without intervention) with the need for the information provided by the death rattles.  He appears to have a plan which requires a lack of stability and unity among the nations.  It is not uncommon for people who are not evil to rationalize (they would say justify) atrocities for the greater good.  Even Jasnah defends the philosophical value of the ends justifying the means.  I think it is premature to categorize Taravangian as evil.

 

Ah, I definitely wrote poorly if I came across as calling Taravangian evil. I happen to support him (and Jasnah), at least partially. When I call ardents 'evil', I refer to them being 'corrupt' or being part of secret societies trying to gain power, and this does not mean I don't support them. Please call me out on it in the future if I call anyone actually evil, because I try to never use moral language if I can avoid it. It confuses things. This post was based on something older, and I obviously did not edit it very well.

 

The ardents are even less clear.  While there appear to be ardents who have divided, or at least hidden, loyalties, I don't think there is nearly enough information to lump all, or even most, of the ardents together in this.  We have a very small sample of what appears to be a very large group.  Undoubtedly there are those in the ardentia who at least desire to regain the power and authority they once held.  But, we have only actually interacted directly with three or four ardents.  One of whom may not have actually been an ardent, one who appears completely benign, and one who spoke suspiciously.  Others, we have seen (such as the hospital ardents) but have only vague impressions of motivations and ideals.

 

I agree the evidence is flimsy. It is unfortunate, to say the least. That said, we have fairly strong evidence that plenty more ardents are suspicious because of how Taravangian's hospitals are run entirely by ardents and how many patients he's blooded. Any reasonably astute ardents who were just 'plain old ardents' would have realized all the terminal patients (and some less so) were going missing, or else that they were being kept from those patients. This is to say, I believe a majority of the ardents in Kharbranth hospitals are part of whatever organization Taravangian is in.

 

your idea seems possible, but I think the evidence is too thin to assign any likelihood to it.  Personally, I am more inclined to think of Taravangian's crew (including his stormwardens and bloodletting ardents), the Ghostbloods, and the Ardentia at large as three separate factions with some overlap.  But, we know so little about these factions that evidence for that idea is perhaps equally thin.  I look forward to Travangian POVs, Dalinar and Amaram interactions, and more Jasnah and Shallan interactions in WoR.  These three groups will give us much further insight into these factions.  

 

Reasonable. I can't fault anyone for not being convinced in any direction at this point in time. We don't have enough information. That said, thus far we only have evidence of stormwardens being involved with Restares, and of ardents (and stewards) being associated with Ghostbloods. Taravangian is never noted as speaking to a stormwarden, never speaks of stormwardens, and I don't think Shallan ever sees one in Kharbranth. We know Amaram and Dalinar are friends or close enough, considering Brandon's morse code message on Reddit.

 

EACH/TIME/YOU/ALLOW/THIS,/AMARAM/SAID,/IT/DRIVES/A/WEDGE/BETWEEN/HIM/AND/THE/THRONE./ AMARAM/TOOK/DALINAR/BY/THE/ARM,/STOPPING/HIM/FROM/CONTINUING/FORWARD./ WE/HAVE/BIGGER/PROBLEMS/THAN/YOU/AND/SADEAS,/MY/FRIEND./ YES,/HE/BETRAYED/YOU./YES,/HE/LIKELY/WILL/AGAIN./BUT/WE/CAN/T/AFFORD/ TO/LET/THE/TWO/OF/YOU/GO/TO/WAR./THE/VOIDBRINGERS/ARE/COMING. (source)

 

Amaram is associated with Restares. Associating Taravangian with Restares when Amaram is friends with Dalinar and Taravangian wants Dalinar dead doesn't make much sense to me. Taravangian being on the same 'side' as Restares, is, I think, much less supported than him being with the Ghostbloods, which is barely supported at all. (My quote about the creepy ardent telling Dalinar about 'our goodwill', if he was part of the Ghostbloods, is at odds with Taravangian ordering his assassination. Though, Taravangian later said that he didn't want to do it. Hmm.)

Edited October 9, 2013 by Moogle

[Gloom he/him]

Some things to consider.

 

He had reached the last name on the list: Taravangian, the king of Kharbranth. A beloved monarch, known for building and maintaining hospitals in his city. It was known as far away as Azir that if you were sick, Taravangian would take you in. Come to Kharbranth and be healed. The king loved all.

Ch. 71 TWoK

 

There is more than one hospital in Kharbranth. There is nothing wrong with or suspicious about transferring patients to hospitals that specialize in a particular type of medicine, and there is nothing suspicious about transferring most of the terminally ill patients to the kings personal hospital. This means that only the ardents directly involved with one wing of his special hospital and a few accomplices need to be involved.

 

The best surgeons and healers trained in Kharbranth. Everyone knew that. The city was said to have more hospitals than taverns.

Ch. 16 TWoK

 

Not everyone working in those hospitals is a member of the ardentia. Kharbranth is the center of medicine in the world of Roshar. To assume all ardents are involved in this would be to assume that all the surgeons and nurses in Kharbranth are also culpable. Every idealistic kid sent to learn medicine is indoctrinated into the macabre art of blood letting and corrupted by Vlad Taravangian.

[Shardlet he/him]

While it would be best to minimize the number of ardents who could betray you, ardents take care of the patients in Taravangian's hospitals. All of them. They may not be watching every patient 24/7, but any ardent with eyes is going to start realizing that patients with terminal illnesses disappear remarkably fast. I think it's fairly plausible to say that most ardents in Kharbranth hospitals are in on Taravangian's plans.

 

The book is unclear as to whether the ardents actually take care of the patients in the hospital.  The surgeons and nurses are never referred to as ardents (this of course does not mean that they aren't).  It seems to me that the ardents administrate the hospitals rather than doing the actual medical work.  This would not necessarily require much actual interaction or attention to the patients specifically.  Also, as gloom pointed out, it could be set up so that terminal patients are transferred to a specific hospital and that they are harvested from there.  That way, the administration at only one hospital need be in on the plan.

 

 

Reasonable. I can't fault anyone for not being convinced in any direction at this point in time. We don't have enough information. That said, thus far we only have evidence of stormwardens being involved with Restares, and of ardents (and stewards) being associated with Ghostbloods. Taravangian is never noted as speaking to a stormwarden, never speaks of stormwardens, and I don't think Shallan ever sees one in Kharbranth.

 

Au contraire, mon ami. 

The Taravangian interlude from WoR indicates that a group of at least three stormwardens are among Taravangian's most trusted circle.

 

As to Restares/Amaram/Dalinar, remember, Taravangian wanting Dalinar dead is a new development.  I have little doubt that Taravangian would readily order his closest allies' deaths if they began to take actions which interferred with his plans.  Taravangian appears to believe that what he is doing is that critical.

Edited October 9, 2013 by Shardlet