Argent he/him Posted October 22, 2013 Report Share Posted October 22, 2013 Not strictly true. Here is a quote from Chapter 5: Heretic, pg 91 (US Hardcover): Nine out of ten Soulcasters were capable of a few limited transformations: creating water or grain from stone; forming bland, single-roomed rock buildings out of air or cloth. A greater one, like Jasnah’s, could effectuate any transformation. Literally turn any substance into any other one. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Count he/him Posted October 22, 2013 Report Share Posted October 22, 2013 (edited) I imagine that travel fabrial would be limited, perhaps something like the spanreeds, one fabrial is connected to one fabrial. This could well be the case with the Midnight Essenced vision... If a travel fabrial is like a linked pair then one could be at the KR base / outpost, the other could then be carried by the Windrunner. So the scenario would be: - message of attack is recieved at the KR base, - Windrunner picks up the linked travel fabrial and jets off. - When he arrives on the scene, the Stoneward uses the linked fabrial to travel to the Windrunner's location. To me, given what we know of modern fabrials (particularly Spanreeds), this seems completely plausable. Edited October 22, 2013 by MadRand 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fifth Posted October 22, 2013 Report Share Posted October 22, 2013 (edited) This could well be the case with the Midnight Essenced vision... If a travel fabrial is like a linked pair then one could be at the KR base / outpost, the other could then be carried by the Windrunner. So the scenario would be: - message of attack is recieved at the KR base, - Windrunner picks up the linked travel fabrial and jets off. - When he arrives on the scene, the Stoneward uses the linked fabrial to travel to the Windrunner's location. To me, given what we know of modern fabrials (particularly Spanreeds), this seems completely plausable. This is how I pictured fabrials working, Like a extremely limited surgbinder with binary style input/output. example 1) Would be like a windrunner gravity fabrial but its limitation is you can only do one type of lashing, the most useful i can think of would be one full lashing or maybe a nine tenths lashing directly up ONLY, so you can't "fly" but you could fall from extreme highs or jump 200ft walls ect ect. Example 2) would be the proximity fabrial being a limited version of the communication/perception surge with an actual surgbinder with this surge able to "look in" where ever they please at a whim but the fabral only able to be a fancy tripwire. the difference is a world apart with the perception/communication surge making you a invaluable intelligence and command asset but the fabrial is just a security alarm. Edit; I after looking at the chart provided by the OP I love the idea of Dalinar/stonewards possessing both a communication/perception surge and surface tension, I Imagine extreme durability of making shields/weapons by changing the surface tension of available objects (Air maybe ?) and the ability to command and maneuver a army efficiently with communication/perception. The communication/perception surge is a good offset to their lack of speed as they should have advanced warning of potential threats and just start moving earlier. then there is the ability to make "impenetrable" walls with surface tension and you can probably take you sweet time anyway. Edited October 22, 2013 by Fifth 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Natans he/him Posted October 22, 2013 Report Share Posted October 22, 2013 TO ME the fabrials work this way. The spren ("focus") is trapped in a gem, and when you give stormlight ("investidure") to it you create a effect defined by the kind of spren you trapped. The "intent" here is the the metal frame in the Fabrial that create a pattern in the light cast by the gem. So the effect would be defined by the light pattern casted by the frame and the kind o spren you trapped. Example: A fire spren could be trapped to give constant heat or a great bust of heat and the Stormlight would be consumed in differents velocities. Another example, I think that some soulcaster can use all essences because they are made with the "complet frame", and some can only use a few esences because they use a "simple frame". 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robot Aztec Posted October 22, 2013 Report Share Posted October 22, 2013 Wait Nine out of TEn soulcasters are limited? There are TEN orders so that could be a difference like MAYBE all soulcasters are unlimited FOR THE RIGHT ORDER, but Jasnath only found the soulcaster for her order?? 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cem he/him Posted October 22, 2013 Report Share Posted October 22, 2013 Jasnah isn't using a fabrial, she's a Surgebinder. Also Shallan is no expert on Soulcasting or fabrials. I personally don't pay much attention to the quote Argent posted. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Argent he/him Posted October 22, 2013 Report Share Posted October 22, 2013 (edited) Don't latch on the numbers, I believe Brandon is using it as a way of saying "a large fraction of all Soulcasters are limited." I shared the quote because it shows that either there are Soulcasters (the fabrials) capable of performing any transformation, or there is a bunch of ardents who are Soulcasters (the Surgebinders). Edited October 22, 2013 by Argent 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cem he/him Posted October 22, 2013 Report Share Posted October 22, 2013 Or there is a third option, Shallan's just repeating unfounded rumors she's heard. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hoser he/him Posted October 22, 2013 Report Share Posted October 22, 2013 It may be important to think of the Radiant fabrials differently than the modern ones. I believe Navani herself says that they have no idea how the ancient fabrials work. So the Veden half-shards presumably work according to the principles shown in the notebook pages, but that does not necessarily tell us how Soulcasters, Regrowthers, Oathgates, Shardblades and Shardplate work. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kurkistan he/him Posted October 22, 2013 Report Share Posted October 22, 2013 Why so skeptical, cem? She knows enough to know that having a "universal" soulcaster is rare, at the very least. I agree that we oughtn't to get hung up on the specific numbers, though. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shardlet he/him Posted October 22, 2013 Report Share Posted October 22, 2013 I suspect that there are actual soulcasting fabrials that are universal. Otherwise Jasnah would have to be extraordinarily careful about the soulcasting she does. I would also suspect that Jasnah would be very careful to make sure that there are actual universal fabrials. She doesn't seem the type to be careless about such a thing. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cem he/him Posted October 22, 2013 Report Share Posted October 22, 2013 Why so skeptical, cem? She knows enough to know that having a "universal" soulcaster is rare, at the very least. I agree that we oughtn't to get hung up on the specific numbers, though. Mostly because I don't trust Vorinism. In my mind that religion is responsible for a lot of what's wrong with Alethkar. It also outright rejects Surgebinding while claiming Soulcasting is divine, holy and such. So mixing Shallan who's a devout Vorin and something that's ingrained in Vorinism doesn't exactly fill me with coincidence, you know? I'll also admit that I might be biased a little. But only a little. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shardlet he/him Posted October 22, 2013 Report Share Posted October 22, 2013 (edited) I don't know that Vorinism rejects surgebinding. As far as I know, they consider the Radiants a failure that is embarrassing to Vorinism. They teach that the Radiants betrayed mankind. And I can see hesitancy towards surgebinding for this reason. But, I don't recall any rejection of surgebinding. Edited October 23, 2013 by Shardlet 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cem he/him Posted October 22, 2013 Report Share Posted October 22, 2013 (edited) “Doesn’t it bother you at all that the Radiants betrayed us?” “Legends. The Recreance is an event so old, it might as well be in the shadowdays. What did the Radiants really do? Why did they do it? We don’t know.” “We know enough. They used elaborate tricks to imitate great powers and pretend a holy calling. When their deceptions were discovered, they fled.” “Their powers were not lies. They were real.” “Oh?” Sadeas said, amused. “You know this? Didn’t you just say the event was so old, it might as well have been in the shadowdays? If the Radiants had such marvelous powers, why can nobody reproduce them? Where did those incredible skills go?” “I don’t know,” Dalinar said softly. “Perhaps we’re just not worthy of them any longer.” I'm not sure if there is another mention of this in the book. Sadeas is hardly a religious expert but this is the only one I can remember right now. Okay, also found this: “I would never accuse my highprince of lying,” Kadash said. “Or even of feebleness. But neither can I condone mysticism or prophecy in any form. To do so would be to deny Vorinism. The days of the priests are gone. The days of lying to the people, of keeping them in darkness, are gone. Now, each man chooses his own path, and the ardents help him achieve closeness to the Almighty through it. Instead of shadowed prophecies and pretend powers held by a few, we have a population who understand their beliefs and their relationship with their God.” Edited October 22, 2013 by cem 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shardlet he/him Posted October 22, 2013 Report Share Posted October 22, 2013 I agree that Sadeas is certainly an undesirable source. That quote from Kadash appears to be speaking of priests not Radiants. "Pretend Powers" in this context refers to the priests' proclaimed power to prophecy future events, not to surgebinding. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
marianmi Posted October 23, 2013 Report Share Posted October 23, 2013 * Stonewards: Dependable, resourceful * Bondsmiths: Resolute, builder It's really hard to place Dalinar, but I tend to say he's a bondsmith, and not a stoneward. Both orders have "surface tension" or whatever you wanna call it, nonetheless, and this is what I think Dalinar used vs the chasmfield. The second surge of a bondsmith is transportation, while the second of the stonewards is not known. I would say "bond" is closer to transportation, and "smith" to suface tension. For stonewards, it looks to me that stone is closer to surface tension (make things as hard as stone, dependable), so "wards" would be from the unknown surge (resourceful). If Adolin would be KR, I would place him in the stonewards order. About the last surge: I initially agreed with the previous post that it might be something like "communication". It's clear that KR could talk to each other wirelessly However, if you think about the spanreeds, they use a ruby, the gemstone of order 3 (dustbringers), most probably linked to their surge Division. So now I am not that sure... maybe the KR used some other ruby-based fabrial... About the ElseCallers: it looks to me this order is able to use their transportation surge on anyone. "Elsecallers" - they "call" (transport) anyone "else" to their location. Also, I see the semantic shift from "travel" to "transportation" a hint to support this theory, since "travel" suggests that only the surgebinder is able to move, while "transportation" is more general and may mean that anyone/anything might be "transported" by the surgebinder. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shardlet he/him Posted October 23, 2013 Report Share Posted October 23, 2013 It's really hard to place Dalinar, but I tend to say he's a bondsmith, and not a stoneward. Both orders have "surface tension" or whatever you wanna call it, nonetheless, and this is what I think Dalinar used vs the chasmfield. I am hesitant to say that Dalinar used 'surface tension' on the chasmfiend for two reasons. The first reason (which is purely speculative) is that the chasmfiend is clearly alive and I wonder if this surge could be used on living flesh. The second reason is that the chasmfiend has a spren bond itself and lives with sufficient investiture to allow for it to exist at that size. It seems to me that that investiture would likely interfere with other investiture being used on it. I also don't recall anything in the scene that indicated a stiffening or relaxing of the chasmfiend's claw-arm. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
marianmi Posted October 23, 2013 Report Share Posted October 23, 2013 I don't mean that he used it on the chasmfield itself, just that he used it to be able to resist. I am hesitant to say he used it on his armour as well because the armour *should* be already invested. Unless of course there is something wrong with the armour's investiture (like the one in the blades) - we do know the shards are different - and then he used it on his armour 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wetlander Posted October 23, 2013 Report Share Posted October 23, 2013 I knew there was a reason I don't hang out here much... I just blew almost two hours on this forum and a few of its links. *sigh* I'm sure most of you know this already, but Brandon did say the other night that "every Herald was either mentioned or shown" in WoK. This comment was a result of asking if the old woman in the Palaneum was Palah herself, which he said was "a very good guess." 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fifth Posted October 24, 2013 Report Share Posted October 24, 2013 * Stonewards: Dependable, resourceful * Bondsmiths: Resolute, builder It's really hard to place Dalinar, but I tend to say he's a bondsmith, and not a stoneward. Both orders have "surface tension" or whatever you wanna call it, nonetheless, and this is what I think Dalinar used vs the chasmfield. The second surge of a bondsmith is transportation, while the second of the stonewards is not known. I would say "bond" is closer to transportation, and "smith" to suface tension. For stonewards, it looks to me that stone is closer to surface tension (make things as hard as stone, dependable), so "wards" would be from the unknown surge (resourceful). If Adolin would be KR, I would place him in the stonewards order. About the last surge: I initially agreed with the previous post that it might be something like "communication". It's clear that KR could talk to each other wirelessly However, if you think about the spanreeds, they use a ruby, the gemstone of order 3 (dustbringers), most probably linked to their surge Division. So now I am not that sure... maybe the KR used some other ruby-based fabrial... About the ElseCallers: it looks to me this order is able to use their transportation surge on anyone. "Elsecallers" - they "call" (transport) anyone "else" to their location. Also, I see the semantic shift from "travel" to "transportation" a hint to support this theory, since "travel" suggests that only the surgebinder is able to move, while "transportation" is more general and may mean that anyone/anything might be "transported" by the surgebinder. I would have to agree that Dalinar could easy fall into both Stoneward / Bondsmith and to be 100% honest he could be a Windrunner (Protecting/Leading) as well from what we have read so far but due Kaladin already occupying that slot i'm gonna rule it out with a as being a extreme outside chance. Now my argument/theory for him being a Stoneward hinges Strongly on the last un-named surge being perception rather than communication which I believe is likely for the following reasons. 1)communication is kinda less useful in the presence of transportation as a surge...(A elsecaller could just send you a note/someone with a message) 2) Overall I see perception as being a much more powerful Surge with better synergies compared to communication, Communication is a two way street where as perception would be just Knowing whats happening. eg a battle rages around you, with perception you know your getting flanked through your surge as opposed to with communication someone would have to communicate this too you. I picture this surge working as a function of distance...you "burn" through you stormlight reserve as you "look in" at a location ...the further it is away from you (or the more detailed your focus )the more rapidly your stormlight is consumed. 3) This surge applies to why Dalinar is the one receiving the visions and why he speaks a ancient language during them...the whole vision is coming in said ancient language but his surge is fueling a direct "perception" of what is being communicated. 4) just a worthless gut feeling that this will plug a hole in the ten surges power synergies especially if this surge can be used to directly affect another living being (sharing perceptions). I imagine someone with this surge being able to touch someone and share their perceptions of a area/situation ...say with Elsecaller allowing for long distance transportation and attacks ect. Well I was going to clean this up and take it out of point format but this will have to do for now. Please poke as many holes in this as you can, I have only read TWoK twice and am on my third re-read now so this theory could be full of problems. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Argent he/him Posted October 24, 2013 Report Share Posted October 24, 2013 There is another problem here, however. Brandon said that he wants Roshar's surges to be akin to natural forces. Communication could pass for a force-like entity (communication -> propagation of information -> entropy, things like that), but perception is something livings things do. It's more like an ability. I could see most of the surges explained by a less enlightened societies as things, forces, that "just are." We don't know how gravity works - it's just out there, doing its thing, attracting things; we don't know how division really works, in part because it's the opposite of gravity. We don't understand why things really grow - molecular biology doesn't strike me as a very well understood science on Roshar. By the same token, light and transformation also just are. I know I am not making the best argument right now, but I wanted to put my thoughts out there. I could elaborate when I have more, should there be need. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
marianmi Posted October 24, 2013 Report Share Posted October 24, 2013 I also think it's not perception... Body focus: bone... Essence: talus (bone) Attributes: Dependable/resourceful... Stonewards... Ward - either from the verb (... to protect...) or the noun (division) ... I would say it's from the verb ... (protectors of stone lol.. shins?) Nevertheless, I don't think it's perception... 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fifth Posted October 24, 2013 Report Share Posted October 24, 2013 (edited) There is another problem here, however. Brandon said that he wants Roshar's surges to be akin to natural forces. Communication could pass for a force-like entity (communication -> propagation of information -> entropy, things like that), but perception is something livings things do. It's more like an ability. I could see most of the surges explained by a less enlightened societies as things, forces, that "just are." We don't know how gravity works - it's just out there, doing its thing, attracting things; we don't know how division really works, in part because it's the opposite of gravity. We don't understand why things really grow - molecular biology doesn't strike me as a very well understood science on Roshar. By the same token, light and transformation also just are. I know I am not making the best argument right now, but I wanted to put my thoughts out there. I could elaborate when I have more, should there be need. I understand what your getting at and I am aware that "Perception" breaks the cast when compared to the other surges but I also think that is why this surge remains un-named at this stage. Information/Data maybe even Propagation would be better suited to match the other nine surges but dose not give a good one word description of a surge. a quick look through a thesaurus give me these options: Awareness, Recognition, Illumination, Detection,Espial, Revelation..... Again all these words are somehow inappropriate to me in some form though the best fits would be Information or Propagation so far, but I still think perception is the best way to describe how the surge "functions". who knows i'm most likely miles off the mark Edit: without hijacking the thread anyone got other idea's for what the final surge could be? Edited October 24, 2013 by Fifth 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Argent he/him Posted October 24, 2013 Report Share Posted October 24, 2013 I've often made the argument that the last surge should deal with strength. Not in the way the "surface tension" surge grants strength - that's more defensive, akin to resistance; more like muscle strength. This, however, hasn't been as widely accepted by the community as I had originally hoped. You'll regret it when you are all proven wrong 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
marianmi Posted October 24, 2013 Report Share Posted October 24, 2013 Revelation (Dalinar... naaaah) I would stop thinking about last surge... it could be anything. Although... we know voidbringers have a similar set of powers... and thunderclasts are coming out of stone... so maybe the surface tension is the "ward" part and the "stone" part allows some kind of manipulation of stone... I know it's far fetched but sounds fun 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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