The Count he/him Posted October 18, 2013 Report Share Posted October 18, 2013 If I was going up against someone who was wielding a claymore, I wouldn't mind having a longsword or a rapier. Sure the claymore has longer reach, but the shorter rapier or longsword has more variety of strokes as well as greater mobility. If both are wielding shardblades then the shorter sword has one set of advantages while the longer sword has a different set. Now if the opposing shardbearer has plate also, then that is certainly more difficult. Just as it would be for longsword against claymore if the claymore guy had full armor. As to the shardbow, there is nothing shard about it except that it takes plate enhanced strength to draw it. I know nothing about regular swords... But how much of the advantages / disadvantages are due to the weights? A massive claymore would surely require two hands to weilds and be slow and powerful - one hit = death (or loss of a limb) A Rapier would be light and quick - death by a thousand cuts The advantages arise out of the different weights of the swords and this their differing power and mobility. Shardblades are light enough that a massive blade can be weilded single handed by a young girl. Power means nothing either as (with a few notable exceptions) nothing stops a sharblade. I suppose the point I am making is that there is no momentum considerations when sparring with shardblades. I think this makes the length and reach much more relevant to the fight. Therefore a longer blade would have an advantage in an otherwise equal fight due to the extra reach. I have to say, after reading Jasnah's prologue I am less opposed to the idea of Szeth carrying Jezriens blade than I was. “I don’t like this. What we’ve done is wrong. That creature carries my lord’s own Blade. We shouldn’t have let him keep it. He—” emphasis mine Not completely sold yet, but this is certainly suggestive... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Argent he/him Posted October 18, 2013 Report Share Posted October 18, 2013 This is what I was suggesting - normally, a longer blade's range is balanced by its increased weight and lack maneuverability; similarly, a shorter blade's speed and control are balanced by its lower reach. Weight, however, is irrelevant for Shardblades*. * I might be misremembering. I do seem to recall that the reason Blades are easier to use is not because they come with a Plate that grants strength, but because they are natively much lighter than normal swords. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scott Posted October 18, 2013 Report Share Posted October 18, 2013 Shardblades are definitely much lighter than normal swords, but I don't think they're weightless. Shardbearers in battle still get tired swinging their swords despite having the strength-enhancing Plate. Length would be a factor in how fast you could move and pivot the blade, and how quickly you can react to an opponent's swings. I think that a longer blade would be an advantage against something like a Thunderclast, and likely also against a man in Shardplate, but I don't think it would matter much in a duel against an unprotected person with a Blade. With a longer blade you stay further from harm. With a shorter blade you can move it faster. When you're one-hit-KO-ing someone I'd take the speed over another foot of reach. Szeth does say that the massive blades were made to fight monsters. It's a pretty good suggestion that his was not, or is not currently. If it is an Honourblade that he carries then we can't speculate much on it's capabilities. Size modification is well within the realm of possibility given that plate resizes to the user. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bloodfalcon he/him Posted October 18, 2013 Report Share Posted October 18, 2013 I think we'd be making a pretty big mistake by assuming there is any standard model for any of the Shardblades. Didn't Brandon say there were 3 kinds of Shardblades? I don't think he meant small, medium, and large, hahaha. The descriptions of each major character's blade is different by far. Some are barbed, Dalinar's had a hook at the end, some are different colors (Adolin's), so I think that allocating blades to certain classes based on physical characteristics is going to take us down a pretty horrid path. Seven magnificent swords stood proudly here, driven point-first into the stone ground. Each was a masterly work of art, flowing in design, inscribed with glyphs and patterns. He recognized each one. If their masters had died, the Blades would have vanished. These Blades were weapons of power beyond even Shardblades. These were unique. Precious. Jezrien stood just outside the ring of swords, looking eastward. Prelude TWoKs If they are all unique and recognizable, they are physically different than one another. His Shardblade was long and thin, edged on both sides, smaller than most others. It seems to me like Szeth's blade is just thin, though the feeling here is that we think it to be short for some reason. Can something be both long and short at the same time? I doubt he was measuring shortness with the blade standing on it's side That's not to say the "Szeth's blade is for peoples" theory can't be true, but it seems based on length, which is described as long here. Unless the long was I personal view and the small was meaning he considers all other blades to be just crazy long. But to the point of the thread: I like the theory of Jez being a traitor for some reason, but as a fan, I'd like it to be a rilly rilly good reason that is unclear for another few books at least. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shardlet he/him Posted October 18, 2013 Report Share Posted October 18, 2013 That is a good parsing of that quote, Blood. There is of course, one failing in the theory that Jezrien is a traitor as evidenced by Szeth having his blade. Even if it were Jezrien's blade, he would not have been the one to give it to anyone. Jezrien and eight of his fellows abandoned their blades and walked away. This theory therefore implies that at least Jezrien later came back for his blade. Jezrien's instruction to Kalak to leave his blade suggests that the blades are tied to the Oathpact and that the Heralds cannot abondon the one and hold onto the other. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hoser he/him Posted October 18, 2013 Report Share Posted October 18, 2013 Though it is not a major point, given the total lack of supporting evidence, I consider the "Szeth's blade is shorter" meme as a mere notion. Another issue for the Szeth is using an Honorblade theory is that he believes that if he dies, the Stone Shaman would recover it. If it were an Honorblade, it would disappear. Szeth might have become part of the Oathpact and could be tortured in damnation until the next Desolation, whereupon he might reappear with the sword. This assumes that the Oathpact sucks up whoever wields an Honorblade. Seriously, though, Szeth knows a lot about his sword and that knowledge is inconsistent with it being an Honorblade. If we don't believe that Szeth has an Honorblade, the Jasnah prologue gets much more mysterious and intriguing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
darkanimereal1 Posted October 18, 2013 Report Share Posted October 18, 2013 The storm from the quote doesn't have to be a highstorm. Szeth, and I believe Kaladin as well, think of a "raging storm" when they hold Stormlight. If we go with this interpretation, then "the storm responds" is merely a metaphor for Surgebinding. Nice catch, there. Not sure if I can believe the quote was about Kaladin, but it's still a good point. However, I definitely agree with these ideas about Szeth's blade: Szeth or somebody else, I can't recall just now, said something akin to accounting for the large size of shardblades as being designed to fight something huge in size. If Szeth's blade is what I think it is, it was conversely designed to fight human-sized opponents. This is similar to my line of reasoning. Szeth wielding Jezrien's blade has interesting implications, but something always felt off about that theory. Now, his Blade being deliberately designed to kill humans. Length would be a factor in how fast you could move and pivot the blade, and how quickly you can react to an opponent's swings. I think that a longer blade would be an advantage against something like a Thunderclast, and likely also against a man in Shardplate, but I don't think it would matter much in a duel against an unprotected person with a Blade. With a longer blade you stay further from harm. With a shorter blade you can move it faster. When you're one-hit-KO-ing someone I'd take the speed over another foot of reach. Szeth does say that the massive blades were made to fight monsters. It's a pretty good suggestion that his was not, or is not currently. If it is an Honourblade that he carries then we can't speculate much on it's capabilities. Size modification is well within the realm of possibility given that plate resizes to the user. Shardeblades were made to kill the monsters of the desolations. They're huge because the enemy was huge. Although I can understand the argument about a shorter sword not doing much if they're both shardblades, couldn't it also be a possibility that Szeth's blade isn't made to kill shardbearers, but instead just civilians? He kills a lot of people, and a lot of them have shardblades, but the vast majority of them are just plain people. Then, a shorter sword isn't a disadvantage--it comes down to what you're most familiar with. And especially for a Windrunner, I would think that shorter/swifter would fit better. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shardlet he/him Posted October 19, 2013 Report Share Posted October 19, 2013 His is a dead horse which I am going to beat . Going back to the size of Szeth's blade, there was a question which I took for granted at the Seattle signing which has garnered new significance because of our discussion here. Quote Q: Is Szeth’s sword noticeably smaller than other shardblades? A: Yes source Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IceBaka Posted October 19, 2013 Report Share Posted October 19, 2013 hoser already shared this quote describing Szeth's blade: "His Shardblade was long and thin, edged on both sides, smaller than most others." It is described as "long" and "smaller". You could variably interpret long as "great length," "elongated," or "longer than regular swords." But I think the problems arise from the use of smaller, which could mean "shorter," "narrower," or "having less mass". The term used in both the book and the quote Shardlet supplies from the signing is smaller, not shorter. Szeth's blade could be the around the same length as other shardblades, but appear noticeably smaller because it is extremely thin. In fact it is described as "long and thin". And Taln's blade being "massive" might just mean that it's quite thick or wide without being overly long. So, while Szeth's blade may be obviously smaller, we cannot assume that it is significantly shorter than other shardblades without more information. Beating dead horses is fun, but... Jezrien could be a traitor. However, I don't think the death rattle about protecting a promise-killer is related. I kind of felt like that one was about Szeth. The Shin society is withdrawn from him. I'm not sure about the life-saving or promise-killing, but it could be related to his oathstone (relationship with Taravangian) and/or events that occur in WoR. The storm responding to a raised hand totally made me think of Szeth's lashings. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
deddinty Posted October 19, 2013 Report Share Posted October 19, 2013 (edited) I think there's far more interpretations for this death rattle that don't involve a herald at all. As others have pointed out, Kaladin and Szeth both call their use of stormlight "the storm within". We don't know how many other surgebinders can directly infuse, or just use stormlight inside of gems, but I'm willing to bet that other types of surgebinders/radiants can infuse as well, and would likely feel the same way. It's easy to think of some alternate scenarios: Kaladin protecting Amaram or Sadeas or Roshone from Dalinar (or Moash would be an interesting choice, he did save Kaladin's life). All three could be said to have killed Kaladin's promises in a way. Another fun one I always imagined: Kaladin protecting Szeth after he's killed Dalinar or some other Kholin or friend, from someone who's saved his life Dalinar could continue on the road to becoming a radiant and gain surgebinding powers and be able to infuse/use stormlight, and he protects say Szeth or even more fun Eshonai This could be something in the past that happened to Szeth, before he was forced out of Shinovar - and thus the all is withdrawn from me Mind you, I don't particularly think any of these scenarios are any more plausible than what's already been suggested. I'm just giving some other examples that could also fit the scenario. In any case, I do like the idea that the herald's are twisted, and may be working either against mankind and Honor, or at least against what they once were. Whether this means we'll eventually see the Herald's return to the right side, or be destroyed, I look forward to finding out. Edited October 19, 2013 by deddinty Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shardlet he/him Posted October 19, 2013 Report Share Posted October 19, 2013 hoser already shared this quote describing Szeth's blade: "His Shardblade was long and thin, edged on both sides, smaller than most others." It is described as "long" and "smaller". You could variably interpret long as "great length," "elongated," or "longer than regular swords." But I think the problems arise from the use of smaller, which could mean "shorter," "narrower," or "having less mass". The term used in both the book and the quote Shardlet supplies from the signing is smaller, not shorter. Szeth's blade could be the around the same length as other shardblades, but appear noticeably smaller because it is extremely thin. In fact it is described as "long and thin". And Taln's blade being "massive" might just mean that it's quite thick or wide without being overly long. So, while Szeth's blade may be obviously smaller, we cannot assume that it is significantly shorter than other shardblades without more information. The context is what is compelling for the WoB. In the book, the coupling with long is what causes much of our uncertainty (although the couple of the two together could simply indicate proportion. A rapier is far shorter than a claymore but would be still be described as long and thin). However, in the WoB, there is no coupling with long. Outside of such a coupling, if someone asked you if a sword was smaller than other swords of a general size, the ready interpretation of the question would be length unless the general sword it is being compared to is way broad (in the sense of blade width). I agree that nothing is conclusive. But, the WoB adds new flavor to the discussion. It was not intended to sway people one way or the other. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
marianmi Posted October 27, 2013 Report Share Posted October 27, 2013 Going back to the OP, did no one mentioned the prologue, where the herald was thinking of not going back, and then thinking that those are perilous, dangerous, traitorous thoughts? Obviously not going back all 9 of them were traitors... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thorontir he/him Posted October 28, 2013 Report Share Posted October 28, 2013 (edited) Maybe I am wrong, but I always assumed that this quote refered to Dalinar. He promises to Kaladin that everything is going to be allright, that he will take care of Kaladin and his men. And then, Sadeas refuses to sell them. Dalinar has told Adolin that this should not end in a bloodbath, and that protects Sadeas (He will have no chance against two shardblades if they (Dalinar, Adonlin...) were determined to kill him, even being in so bad shape (At least that is what I think). So, "All is withdrawn for me. I stand against the one who saved my life. I protect the one who killed my promises. I raise my hand. The storm responds." I stand against the one who saved my life (Kaladin, who has returned because of the promises made by Dalinar) I protect the one who killed my promises (Sadeas, who refuses to sell bridgemen) I raise my hand. The storm responds. (Dalinar summons the Shardblade, which is a price Sadeas can't refuse). The storm as similar thing to the mists in mistborn has been discussed, thus my thoughts of "The storm responds" being the summoning of the blade. Ok, now, two things 1.- Forgive any mistakes in my english, as usual 2.- Sorry about the interruption, but as I said, I always had believed that this quote refered to Dalinar, but seems that I am alone... Edited October 28, 2013 by Thorontir 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Argent he/him Posted October 28, 2013 Report Share Posted October 28, 2013 That works too, I suppose... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gloom he/him Posted October 28, 2013 Author Report Share Posted October 28, 2013 After seeing your explanation, it fits pretty well. You may very well be correct. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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