What spren is Wyndle?

[Windrunner he/him]

I don't think of it as left/right or top bottom. I figured the Windrunners are the order with spren that have the most "Honor" as they are the honorspren, and that logically, the order across from them would have spren with the most Cultivation.

 

THEFINISHER4EVER ()

Are all wind spren really just unbonded honor spren?

BRANDON SANDERSON

No, they are cousins to one another, but not exactly the same thing.

[Shardlet he/him]

Although there is surely a great deal of information in the construction of the chart, I am rather hesitant to interpret it quite so empirically.  I think the characteristics I cited are stronger evidence than an interpretation of the table.

 

As to the cousins, my idea would properly mean that windspren and honorspren are different, but closely related.  They may even be described as cousins.

[Meg]

I think Wyndle is a cultivationspren (deriving mostly from Cultivation) as for his 'alignement' to the Shards. Aside from that, I think, I'd say he's a growthspren (as was said before) or a "raising" spren (he wanted to be bound to an elderly gardener, and a gardener "raises" plants). If that word (raising) is wrong, please help me.

 

 

I like cultivationspren for Wyndle right now.  I've personally been calling him growthspren, because he can grow in his unique way. 

 

I'm not personally of the opinion that there are multiple types of "Honorspren" with subsets within them.  I like to cite the Dalinar's vision of the king and how he says "not all spren are as discerning as honorspren".  While this can be interpreted either way, it seems to me like he's saying very few Nahal bonds are with honorspren.

 

Reading the above quote I remembered this:
 

Question

A question related to that. There’s an idea going around that all the spren that can Nahel Bond, all Knight Radiant spren are called honorspren, and then Nohadon talks specifically about honorspren. Is that the case? You know, is it just the Windrunner spren, or is it all the spren?
Brandon Sanderson

I’m going to deal with this in the next book. So I’ll just go ahead and let it be a literal RAFO. It is coming.

(interruption, leading Brandon to lose his train of thought)

So what we are dealing with here is that all Spren are indeed all pieces of the one who has gone, so those spren are all- except the Windrunner spren, the spren like Syl, have certain umm.
ZAS

Nohadon mentioned that "All the spren aren’t as discerning as honorspren."
BRANDON SANDERSON

So there has been dissension among them about who gets to call themselves honorspren, if that makes sense, and there is some disagreement among scholars about which ones are really, you know "This is what defines an honorspren".

But the spren you are running into are all (something) of either Honor or Cultivation, or some mixture between them. And you can usually tell the ones that are more Honor, and the ones that are more Cultivation. That should be able to be (something).

 

source

 

emphasizes mine

 

I don't know if that helps in any way here, but I wanted to throw it in.

 

That line "So there has bin dissension among them ..." now seems to imply that there are kinds of 'ruling bodies' for others than only those spren like Wyndle. But this is another topic.

[b4dave he/him]

Who says that the heraldic table needs to be split neatly down the middle, left or right and top to bottom, to represent honor and cultivation. I see them as a mixture of the two. Ex (not literal just an example) orders 1,3,5,7,9 being of honour and 2, 4, 6, 8, and 10 being of cultivation or any other number of possible combinations. 

[11thorderknight]

Honestly, I think the original Radiants were all bonded to an Honorspren of some sub-type, with the sub-type/appearance determined by their exact Order. Thus, Syl, Wyndle, and Ym's confused lightspren are all equally Honorspren. Note that all of them have an appearance similar to "common" spren, but only visible (generally) to their Bonded Radiant.

 

We don't know enough about Jasnah to know what her spren looks like, or even if she necessarily has one, though the shadow stuff from her chapter implies that she does.

 

As for Shallan, Elhokar and the Cryptics, we don't know much at this point. Based on the overall spren pattern, I would say that the Cryptics are an entirely different class of spren, possibly related to Cultivation, possibly something else, and that their bonds are fundamentally different from Radiant bonds. In other words, their bondees will be Surgebinders, but not Radiants. However, I'm very torn on that, since I just don't see Shallan turning out to be something other than a Radiant.

 

Bottom line - we'll find out in March.

[cem he/him]

Honestly, I think the original Radiants were all bonded to an Honorspren of some sub-type, with the sub-type/appearance determined by their exact Order. Thus, Syl, Wyndle, and Ym's confused lightspren are all equally Honorspren. Note that all of them have an appearance similar to "common" spren, but only visible (generally) to their Bonded Radiant.

 

We don't know enough about Jasnah to know what her spren looks like, or even if she necessarily has one, though the shadow stuff from her chapter implies that she does.

 

As for Shallan, Elhokar and the Cryptics, we don't know much at this point. Based on the overall spren pattern, I would say that the Cryptics are an entirely different class of spren, possibly related to Cultivation, possibly something else, and that their bonds are fundamentally different from Radiant bonds. In other words, their bondees will be Surgebinders, but not Radiants. However, I'm very torn on that, since I just don't see Shallan turning out to be something other than a Radiant.

 

Bottom line - we'll find out in March.

Okay first, Radiant bond is the Surgebinder bond. All Radiants are Surgebinders. The only difference is the Ideals, which strengthen the bond not alter. Knights Radiants are an organization of Surgebinders. So there is no such thing as a Knight Radiant who is not a Surgebinder, though the reverse is possible of course.

 

Also Shallan is a Surgebinder and her abilities are tied to the Cryptics. That's WoB.

 

Second, if all Surgebinders bonded to honorspren, why would Nohadon say "not all spren are as discerning as honorspren" in reference to a Surgebinder he doesn't think well of?

Edited October 23, 2013 by cem

[Meg]

Okay first, Radiant bond is the Surgebinder bond. All Radiants are Surgebinders. The only difference is the Ideals, which strengthen the bond not alter. Knights Radiants are an organization of Surgebinders. So there is no such thing as a Knight Radiant who is not a Surgebinder, though the reverse is possible of course. (emphasizes mine)

 

I wondered about this possibility, too. Over those thousands of years there could have been lots of Surgebinders. Ones that didn't realize what happened to them (or went crazy -- thinking of the cryptics), others that did realize there was something special about them, but not, what, ones that remembered and used their newly found powers, others who instinctively used their newly found powers. Some of them might have been hunted (at least after the Hierocracy), some of them could have been able to use their powers but hide it. Some might have founded organizations like the Envisagers, the Ghostblood or others.

 

What do you all think?

 

 

Also Shallan is a Surgebinder and her abilities are tied to the Cryptics. That's WoB.

 

Second, if all Surgebinders bonded to honorspren, why would Nohadon say "not all spren are as discerning as honorspren" in reference to a Surgebinder he doesn't think well of?

 

Agreed. Nohadon's sentence seems to imply that if other spren would be as discerning as honorspren, there wouldn't have been such a chaos, because Surgebinders not worthy of a spren-bond wouldn't get one.

[cem he/him]

I wondered about this possibility, too. Over those thousands of years there could have been lots of Surgebinders. Ones that didn't realize what happened to them (or went crazy -- thinking of the cryptics), others that did realize there was something special about them, but not, what, ones that remembered and used their newly found powers, others who instinctively used their newly found powers. Some of them might have been hunted (at least after the Hierocracy), some of them could have been able to use their powers but hide it. Some might have founded organizations like the Envisagers, the Ghostblood or others.

 

What do you all think?

Pre-Recreance, I don't think the Radiants would let the rogues have too much freedom, if they even let rogues exist in the first place. Heal the people of your village with Regrowth, fine; try to start your own cult, a dozen Windrunners drop from the sky and convince you of your mistakes by way of beating the crap out of you.

 

Post-Recreance, there was nobody who'd care. They may have done all sorts of stuff.

[11thorderknight]

This is exactly my point. All Radiants are Surgebinders, yes, but not all Surgebinders are necessarily Radiants. Prior to Nohadon, none of the Surgebinders were Radiants, not even those who bonded to Honorspren. After the founding of the Orders, it's possible that all new bonds were to Honorspren, and all the Surgebinders became Radiants. Or maybe the Radiants just kept the peace, so to speak, and prevented unaffiliated Surgebinders from doing anything bad. And just because Brandon has said that Shallan is a Surgebinder (which is clearly obvious from the book) doesn't mean that she's going to be a Radiant (although I her character and want her to be). 

 

I still think there's something fundamentally different about the Cryptics and by extension, the Surgebinders they bond to.

[marianmi]

You know, Nohadon's comment actually is pretty tied to the "Ring"...

 

I do believe that honorspren and cultivationspren define the alignment of the spren, not the actual spren. So Syl is a windspren honorspren. Wyndle is a vinespren(?) cultivationspren. This would agree with BS's statement that there are honorspren, cultivationspren and in between, and they argue which is which  

 

Now, about Nohadon's comment... seems like cultivationspren are not as discerning when selecting people to bond with ... and probably the surgebinder that started Nohadon's desolation was bonded to a cultivationspren. Then maybe the cultivation sprens decided not to bond randomly, and created The Ring, an entity that is in charge of assigning (cultivation) sprens for bonds. Of course, this would be for a certain part (society) of cultivationspren.. there might be some that don't follow these rules and bond whenever. Also, seems like honorspren (maybe because Honor was splintered) are not aware, and become aware only after being attracted to the attributes that would create the bond. According to this, the lightspren bonded to Ym is an honorspren. Cryptics seems to be more cultivation than honor also.

[marianmi]

It's starting to feel like Honorspren and Cultivationspren are not real spren in the way that flamespren, or rotspren, or musicspren are. It feels more like they are a... rank. So you can be a windspren, and you choose your Radiant based on his leadership and desire to protect. He starts displaying impressive sense of honor, however, and you level up. Congratulations, you are now an Honospren. Nohadon's comment about Honorspren being discerning (and more specifically, Brandon's comment that "there has been dissension among them about who gets to call themselves honorspren") suggests that the situation is almost like "Okay, this Radiant has reached Honor level 9000. One more and his windspren gets to be Honorspren!" Similarly, the other end of the spectrum would depend not on being honorable, but on having a desire to cultivate, to develop, to improve things. 

 

I definitely see issues with the specifics of this theory, but the general idea sounds mostly alright to me.

 

Close, but ... you are honorspren because you are invested by Honor, not because the radiant has a sense of honor. Basically, Syl was an unaware honorspren windspren. She was attracted by protecting/leading Kaladin, she became more aware (of her Honor investiture).

[Argent he/him]

Yea, that's also a valid point... It feels like I could explain this with my theory, but I need to think about it some more. Anything I come up with on a short notice will likely feel like a hack, not like a cohesive extension - or clarification - of the theory.

[ProfessorMLyon he/him]

I wouldn't say that most spren are the magical offspring of the two Shards. We know some are of Honor, some are of Cultivation, some are of both, and some apparently are of Adonalsium itself. Nothing I've seen suggests ratios.

 Wait, what? There are spren of Adonalsium?

[WeiryWriter he/him]

 Wait, what? There are spren of Adonalsium?

 

Yep it was revealed at the Seattle Steelheart signing.

[FeatherWriter she/her]

Gotta say, I like that the idea of "honorspren" referring to a group of spren or being a category rather than a specific type is gaining steam. I've held this little theory for over two years now, but I've never really been able to get anyone else behind it. 

 

"... I suppose that the "bondable" types of spren could all be called Honorspren, and in actuality Syl is a more specific type within that category. (She is still kind of figuring all this out, so it's possible that she just picked up on the Honorspren thing and not that she's the kind of Honorspren who does Windrunning)."

 

Maybe "honorspren" a title, or a supercategory with more specific types beneath it, or perhaps a regular spren becomes an honorspren somehow, but it's definitely a theory that I espouse. (I almost said "headcanon" oops. Gotta use the right terms over here.) If this turns out to be the case, I am definitely going to say that I called it.

[Gloom he/him]

Spren! I like spren, I think most of them are from Adonalsium. I think that both Honor and Cultivations added additional investiture to some of them making then splinters, but that most spren are still wild. I believe that Syl is like a cousin to windsren, because she was a windspren before receiving additional investiture from Honor. I believe that most of the spren that we will eventually know as Honorspren lose their connection to the Cognitive when unbonded, and that most of those who are Cultivation spren maintain that connection. To my thinking Cryptics, Vinespren, and other Cultivation aspected spren dwell primarily in the Cognitive and spren like Syl dwell primarily in the spiritual. This is why Syl requires a connection to the Physical in order to access the Cognitive, while spren like Wyndle don't. Prior to the Splintering, this may have been different. I believe that there are more Honor spren than there were prior to the Splintering because the splinters of Honor were drawn to the existing investiture left behind by Adonalsium. If this is correct, then we can see far more Honorspren than had ever existed before. I'll wait to see what is challenged before I start my quote hunt.

[WeiryWriter he/him]

I really doubt that most spren are of Adolnasium.  In fact I do not believe we have seen any Adonalsium-spren at this point.  Brandon has said that "the spren you are running into are all (something) of either Honor or Cultivation, or some mixture between them."  This implies we haven't seen any ado-spren yet. (Granted that is from long before we found out about them but still)  Also most spren aren't sentient and WoB is that ado-spren are, in fact it is the one thing we do know about them.

[Gloom he/him]

I believe that he was referring to bonding spren. In the context of the question I don't see any reason why Brandon would feel a need to differentiate. I can't find the new quote referring to adonalsium however, even after searching for over an hour. So if you have that quote on hand, I'd be happy to see it in full with apparently more information than I've been privy to.

[Windrunner he/him]

It was openly posted in another topic.

A splinter is a term used by certain people in the cosmere for power of Adonalsium which has no person caring for it, no…no person holding it, which has attained self-awareness.

Wetlander: So is that like the mists and the Well? Are they…

A: They are not, because they have not attained self-awareness. But, the Seons are self-aware. So, any piece, for instance there were some spren on Roshar before Honor and Cultivation got there. Those were already splinters of Adonalsium where he had left power which attained sentience on its own. So, it can be intentional is what I am saying, does that make sense? You have seen other splinters.

[WeiryWriter he/him]

I believe that he was referring to bonding spren. In the context of the question I don't see any reason why Brandon would feel a need to differentiate. I can't find the new quote referring to adonalsium however, even after searching for over an hour. So if you have that quote on hand, I'd be happy to see it in full with apparently more information than I've been privy to.

 

I really do not get that from that quote.  It doesn't make sense with the word choice.  If he had meant just bonding spren he would have said something to that effect.  Instead he says ALL spren which implies he meant all spren.

[Shardlet he/him]

I think the clear indication of the two quotes (one presented by Weiry and the other presented by Windrunner) is that sentient spren are splinters.  Some are splinters of Honor, some of Cultivation, some of a mixture of the two, and some of Adonalsium.  It does not seem unreasonable that some spren which are unique and non-attribute aligned (such as Cusicesh) are Ado-spren.  I would hazard to guess that all KR spren are H and C and mixture.  The the Cryptics could be something else, but I doubt it in view of the quote Weiry presented.  The Cryptics are seemingly just too important in TWoK to have been conveniently excluded from that statement whereas Cusicesh is a side feature in an interlude and therefore could be a reasonable exception to the statement.

Edited October 27, 2013 by Shardlet

[Gloom he/him]

Ahh, I was thinking, and this is most likely wrong, that most of the 'wild' spren, such as flame spren and ordinary wind spren and oddities like Cusicesh were Adonalsium spren. I had it in my head that Honor and Cultivation invested additional power into some of those spren to alter them into spren who were splinters of their own. Those would have been what eventually became bonding spren.

 

This would help make sense of quotes like the one where Brandon said 'heralds were "created" by Honor in a similar way to spren'.  If Honor didn't actually create the spren, just re-made them into Honorspren, then we don't have a contradiction. Jezrien is the king of the Heralds and was a king before he became a Herald. That is, I believe, cannon.

Edited October 25, 2013 by Gloom

[Shardlet he/him]

I am not inclined to think that the mundane spren are the Ado-spren because there are just so many of them (an apparently huge portion of the apparent spren population).   So many mundane spren being sourced from Adonalsium suggests that it left a pretty big chunk of power on Roshar.  I am more inclined to think that the mundane spren (or at least the vast majority of them) were the/a result of the splintering of Honor.

 

I don't think that this provides a contradiction to anything Brandon has previously said.

[Gloom he/him]

Yes, I can see the justification for that line of reasoning. There is nothing wrong with it, it's the safest and most likely, given the information on hand, possibility.

 

One of the reasons I like my theory is that it would result in a large chunk of unaligned investiture sitting on Roshar. A chunk of power that Odium now needs seeing that Sazed picked up two Shards. I realize that there is a lot wrong with this theory. Even though the books are chronological, desolation's have been occurring for a very long time. Millennium upon millennium has passed on Roshar for so many desolation's to have occurred. I'm going to guess at least 10,000 years. Whatever the time line, we know that Odium splintered Dominion and Devotion prior to this, and possibly a few other Shards as well. Hoid must be very very old. The point is that I think that Odium can safely pick up investiture left behind by Adonalsium without having to worry about it tainting his world view. That would give him a shot at taking out Sazed, and make taking out any other Shard a piece of cake.

[dionysus]

First, I prefer the name Gardenspren because Wyndle calls himself a gardener.

 

“What has become of me?” Wyndle asked. “Thieving in the night, chased by abominations. I was a gardener. A wonderful gardener! Cryptics and honorspen alike came to see the crystals I grew from the minds of your world. Now this. What have I become?”

 

Second, notice the separation of Cryptics from honorspren. It is a reach but Cryptics might not be honorspren. (Goes along with my thread about how perhaps the latter 4 surgebinder ideals for some orders might not really align with Honor or each other. First Ideal was an attempt to unify Surgebinders into a common cause, but is not actually a Surgebinder ideal they all share in common.)

 

Edit. Edited out some stupidity on my part.

Edited October 30, 2013 by dionysus