Kandra

[11thorderknight]

So, since we know that Sazed made koloss a "true" race, not needing hemalurgic spikes, the question is - did he do the same to kandra? I mean, we know that they exist as mistwraiths without spikes, which are basically just stupid kandra. You'd think that amongst all his meddling, Sazed would have done something about that, wouldn't you? 

 

EDIT:

Also, now that we have WoB confirmation that kandra can gain allomantic and/or feruchemical abilities via hemalurgy (which I've always thought to be the case) a kanda would be a pretty badass supervillain. He can take any form, hunts mistings and ferrings, and steals their powers, with the goal of becoming a truly immortal lord ruler....mwah-haha!

 

 

Thoughts?

Edited October 22, 2013 by Windrunner
Please don't double post, just edit your original post. Thanks!:)

[Shardlet he/him]

I don't think he needed to change the Kandra, since they already bred true as an independent species from their origins.  In contrast, the Koloss were essentially human, but had no capacity to breed true.  Something needed to be done to help them since you had this group of people that Sazed would have felt have a right to exist, but were rather incompatible with society.  I wonder about how Sazed accomplished this since there doesn't seem to be anything to suggest that there were females who had been spiked to become Koloss.  I also wonder why he didn't simply take away their spikes and heal them.  It seems that would be the simplest and best solution.

[Oudeis he/him]

The Kandra did not breed true. Mistwraiths had to be granted hemalurgic spikes in order to gain sentience.

 

Being functionally immortal, they are theoretically sustainable without requiring constant spiking. Eventually, however, something will happen and they will die. So, either Sazed restored a bunch of them and they're allowed to live until they die, or he's modified Mistwraiths as he did Koloss to make them a sentient being capable of breeding on their own. I wonder what a crossbreed of human and Kandra would look like or, for that matter, Koloss and Kandra.

 

We all assume the Faceless Immortals that spread the word of Pathism are Kandra, yes?

[Shardlet he/him]

The mistwraiths do breed though.  No, you do not have Kandra babies, but all mistwraiths (including the naturally born ones) are Kandra in potentia.  The spikes unblock their sentience is how Brandon described it if I recall.  They do not grant it, they unlock it.

 

Edit: We know that the one who gave the earring to Wax was MeLaan.

Edited October 23, 2013 by Shardlet

[Nicrosil he/him]

I always thought that the Koloss of AoL were just regular Koloss who's spikes had deteriorated to the point that they could make baby Koloss, and even breed with people. One of Mile's thugs is described as "Koloss blooded", with gray skin and a large figure.

[11thorderknight]

What I meant about kandra not being a "true" race was that, in order to be a kandra and not just a mistwraith, they had to have spikes. I wonder if Sazed would have changed that, at least in the ones that already existed, to make them independent of spikes.

[Shardlet he/him]

It is possible that Sazed removed the blockage.  But, the spikes are also beneficial to the Kandra because of the enhancemnt they provide.  Sazed is clearly not above using existing spikes, so I don't see why he would have a problem with the Kandra continuing to use them.  I also could see Sazed not removing the blockage and only allowing a select cadre of trusted Kandra use spikes because sentient shapeshifters are dangerous business.

[Oudeis he/him]

How do we know that mistwraiths breed?

[Shardlet he/him]

Pretty sure, but I don't have time to look through the annotations for HoA right now.

[Kadrok she/her]

Kandra are working for Sazed and are still spiked. Source. (See below for the key bits)

 

Interview: Oct, 2008

Hero of Ages Q&A - TWG (Verbatim)

Agate (15 October 2008)

I can guess two possible options for the Kandra.

1. God Sazed endowed the gift of presence on the now mistwraiths.

2. Some of the Kandra survived in the cave with the Terrisman and people of the city, along with the small mistwraiths, these are re-born with the spikes they pulled out during the resolution.

I can imagine too that some Kandra on assignment may have hidden in the shelters with the rest of humanity.

Brandon Sanderson (15 October 2008)

The Kandra.

Yes, they live. The people were smart enough, eventually, to replace their spikes. (And there were a couple who were on assignment who made it to storage caches.)

However, there will likely never be any more of them, since Hemalurgy is required to make them. They are now some of the few people who can communicate directly with Sazed, who—like Ruin—can whisper to people most easily when they are connected to him via spikes. With some speculation, you can probably guess what kind of roles the Kandra will end up playing in future books.

 

 

Interview: Nov 19th, 2011

Alloy of Law Signing Report - Orome & Fejicus (Paraphrased)

Fejicus

Oh, and another little tidbit,

Brandon Sanderson

The person who gave Wax his earring was the kandra, MeLaan.

Also, that Kandra are working as "Sazed's Angels". And their role is primarily to go along fixing things by Sazed's Will. Brettin was killed towards the end of the book, but not in the storyline related plot. Sazed saw this, and told Tensoon to go get his bones, which is why he wasnt able to imitate him properly.

 

 

Interview: Jan, 2012

Alloy of Law Reddit Q&A (Verbatim)

midwestredditor (Reddit.com)

Of course these are going to be spoiler-tastic.

How are there kandra and koloss? Kandra especially, since they did their "mass suicide" thing at the end of the original trilogy.

Brandon Sanderson (Reddit.com)

The nice thing about the kandra for me in the narrative was that, though removing their spikes turns them feral, you can always stick those spikes back in. TenSoon feared that this was the end of his people, and it could have been, if those spikes hadn't gone back in quickly. As it was, there were costs. Time spent without spikes causes a kandra's memories to deteriorate, and some that were left a relatively long time were essentially reborn as new people. But the race survived, even if it is unlikely that their numbers will be added to.

MIDWESTREDDITOR

Thank you very much for answering my questions!

If I may be allowed a follow-up question: Did TenSoon survive, then (as the TenSoon who experienced growth under Vin)?

(If it's not spoiler-tastic to the series, this is something I might share with my fiancee. TenSoon was one of her favorite characters. You, uh, kinda killed most of her favorites.)

BRANDON SANDERSON

Yes, though he did lose some things.

Edited October 24, 2013 by Kadrok

[Satsuoni he/him]

At last, somebody who reads the interview database

Another quote (I think, one of the first ones):

The Kandra were restored, and have taken a vow to live only in animal bodies. There will never be any more of them, but they are functionally immortal. So you'll see them again. The Koloss who were in the cavern at the time survived, and were changed to become a race that breeds true, rather than Hemalurgic monsters.

 

So to summarize: Kandra have been restored, and are still alive. Unlike a Mistwraith, that only lives for 50 years, Kandra have indefinite lifespan. They have not been changed into true race. The fate of Mistwraiths is unknown, but they have probably survived separately, but Sazed prohibits making of new Kandra (probably)

 

Edit: Ah, that was also in Kadrok's link. Oh well.

Edited October 24, 2013 by Satsuoni

[Kadrok she/her]

"The Kandra were restored, and have taken a vow to live only in animal bodies. There will never be any more of them, but they are functionally immortal. So you'll see them again. The Koloss who were in the cavern at the time survived, and were changed to become a race that breeds true, rather than Hemalurgic monsters."

 

To be honest, this quote always bothers me for a couple of reasons.

1) It's a bit harsh for an intelligent post-human species to be confined to animal bodies... honestly I'd flatly refuse to make that vow were I in their position.

But more importantly,

2) The only Kandra we see in AoL are in human bodies: the woman who gave Wax his earring (MeLaan, right?) and Officer Brettin (TenSoon). What?! I thought they made a vow to only live in animal bodies! Or are main character Kandra allowed to ignore that rule? Oh, Sazed gave them the okay? Even with the word of their god, I doubt a group who enshrined a contract as the focus of their way of life for centuries would be anything but reticent to break a vow. Unless... maybe it just sucks so much living without opposable thumbs that they'll use any excuse to break the vow....

Edited October 24, 2013 by Kadrok

[Satsuoni he/him]

Presumably, their full vow was something like "we will live our normal lives in  animal bodies, unless contracted by Harmony to do otherwise. We are free to add opposable thumbs and voice boxes to bodies if necessary."

[WeiryWriter he/him]

On the animal bodies thing.  I interpret that as they are only able to take skeletons from animals (unless directed to to otherwise by Harmony) but they can still make True Bodies in whatever shape they wanted.

[11thorderknight]

I wonder how that's gonna work for kandra in the "modern" series. I mean, once people invent x-rays and TSA checkpoints, their ability to change their shape becomes vastly more limited by their requirement to have spikes :-)

[waxingwass]

Just a random thought from reading below the EDIT of the original post...Since kandra can gain allomantic and/or feruchemical abilities via hemalurgy, how do their bind points work? When they change forms (animal-human-animal), do they retain this abilities?  Can they do their body-altering to move the location of the spike do different bind points and thus alter their abilities?  Can't recall if there's any details from HoA (currently re-reading) or any WoB addressing rules for bind points?

 

On another note...this is/was my first post.  Been lurking on the site for a while, enjoying the forums and theories and want to say thank you to the community for being so creative/active/humorous/welcoming/entertaining/and lots more -ings.  

[Shardlet he/him]

How do we know that mistwraiths breed?

 

Here are some of the quotes which I have been blindly citing. 

 

This one is from the HoA annotations (chapter 80 part 2):

 

Remember, all of the kandra save for the First Generation were born first as mistwraiths. That race of creatures breeds true, and has only a fifty-year lifespan. They die off, but birth new members. Taking one of those new members and adding spikes to them, however, awakens them and brings them sentience. They’re part human, just like the koloss who remember having once been human.

 

So Mistwraiths breed true.

 

This one is from the Q&A with Brandon here on 17S:

 

 'NinjaMeTimbers', on 25 Sept 2012 - 18:02, said:

/>Brandon, I'm a huge fan of yours. Originally I found out about you after you were chosen to finish The Wheel of Time, and since then you've become my favorite author. I have a few questions regarding mistwraiths:

How intelligent is a mistwraith? Could you raise and train mistwraiths like dogs or horses, controlling what forms they take by the bones you give them? Would you be able to train yourself a horsewraith steed by giving it only the bones of a horse?

Brandon: This is feasible. One thing to keep in mind is that mistwraiths are people who have a blockage between the physical and the cognitive realm, messing with their ability to think. Think of them as mentally-stunted people. There's enough there to train, but then you have to dig into the ethics of it...

 

So, Mistwraiths are people (not to be confused with humans) who have a blockage which appears to be bypassed or bridged by their blessings.  These blessings also provide an extension of their lifespan.  Kandra are still Mistwraiths since they revert if their spikes are removed.  Thus being the foundation for my statements that Kandra (that is to say, cognitively unblocked Mistwraiths) breed true.

[Khmauv he/him]

I am throwing out a wild theory here. I don't know if anyone has made it yet, and I won't give any evidence, but here goes.

 

-Wayne is part Kandra. This is why he is so good at mimicking accents and disguising himself.

[Vortaan he/him]

I am throwing out a wild theory here. I don't know if anyone has made it yet, and I won't give any evidence, but here goes.

 

-Wayne is part Kandra. This is why he is so good at mimicking accents and disguising himself.

 

Kandra can't use Feruchemy or Allomancy. Kind of makes it hard to pass on the relevant genetics.

 

EDIT: Innately use. Pretty sure Hemalurgy won't let you pass things on to your descendents. 

Edited November 1, 2013 by Vortaan

[Oudeis he/him]

I don't agree with this idea, but I don't think genetics is a reason he can't. A Kandrablood would have four grandparents. If one were a Keeper, one were a Misting, another were a Kandra, and the last one was Bob over there, he'd have the legacy from two grandparents required to be Twinborn, and the legacy from a different side of the family to have a slightly malleable body. Ew on so many levels and I don't personally think it's what happened, but I don't think it's impossible due to Kandra ancestry making you incapable of feruchemy or allomancy.

[Shardlet he/him]

I don't think it is possible because Kandra are a significantly different species than humans.  Their human appearance is by choice not by anything genetic.  Koloss were still genetically human when Sazed did his magic to make them breed true (though I still wonder about the female aspect of that).  So don't bring up Koloss-blooded folk as evidence for demi-Kandra.

[thecatinthehat]

Koloss were still genetically human when Sazed did his magic to make them breed true (though I still wonder about the female aspect of that).

But are female Kolosses confirmed? Maybe they can breed, but only with human females?

[Oudeis he/him]

 So don't bring up Koloss-blooded folk as evidence for demi-Kandra.

 

Eh... while I accept your point that demi-Kandra are certainly not a confirmed possibility, I think you'd being too sure that they aren't at all possible.

 

Remember, Mistwraiths were once human. We have no idea what Rashek did to them to turn them into what they are, but there's no reason to assume they for sure have no genetic compatibility with other humans. Further, we can't know what Sazed did to change them the second time. I fully agree that it is speculation, (and let me take this moment to re-affirm that I also don't think Wayne is kandra-blooded) and I don't even know if I personally think demi-kandra are possible, I just don't think we can rule them out.

 

I don't even think they're all that implausible. They are modified humans (we don't even know if their DNA was changed, with the raw power of Creation there are several other possibilities) who have the power to assume human form, up to and including functional internal organs. It's entirely possible they can craft reproductive organs that would work fine, and be able to pass on genetic code similar enough to human to create viable off-spring. Just because they look very different doesn't mean their DNA has to be that different, and with Investiture it technically doesn't mean their DNA has to be different at all.

 

EDIT: Final thought: In short, if Mr. Sanderson does introduce demi-Kandra at some point, I would accept that as plausible. For now, however, I don't believe it's the case.

Edited November 3, 2013 by Darnam