LDS Influences on Themes (Theology Time)

[Moogle]

I think that if Mormons believe God has a physical body, it's because he was a "human" on another planet, then ascended and became God of this planet (correct me if I'm wrong).

 

I may also be wrong on this, but I thought it was that every Mormon male in good standing with the church and with a wife would end up becoming god of a new universe when they die - so there's basically a bunch of pocket universes within pocket universes, and it's turtles all the way down, as it were, with gods being made in new universes and making new universes for new gods to be made. I always liked that thought, particularly from a utilitarian angle what with exponentially more new happy life being created over time.

[Timemaster11 he/him]

One tie to religion that stood out to me was the name "Adonalsium". It is just so similar to Adonai, one of the Judeo-Christian (and hence also LDS) names for God. I suspect that was where he got the name from, though if anyone has a different idea, I'm all ears.

 

In fact, I have long thought that the relationship between the words "Adonai" and "Adonalsium" felt very similar to the relationship between 

"Ati" and "Atium" or "Leras" and "Lerasium".

Edited January 29, 2014 by Timemaster11

[18th Shard he/him]

 

 

As for the incarnation, I believe the Mormon church teaches that God has a lot of "spirit children" and that when we are born, one of those spirits waiting up in heaven for a body gets one, and Jesus was the first "spirit child", even though he wasn't the first to receive a physical body. Or something like that?

That's true

[Mckeedee123 he/him]

I don't think that Brandon Sanderson consciously based the stories on LDS doctrine, with Kwaan's plate or anything. I especially don't think that the concept of shards is based off of the LDS apotheosis doctrine. The whole thing does feel very... LDS to me though, somehow. I read Mistborn and The Way of Kings and got more and more suspicious until I finally looked it up online and sure enough, he was LDS. I guess living in the church gives you a distinctive philosophy on life and human nature. I... I can't even describe it. Everything in his writing just clicks with me. I guess that for one, there's the belief in free will, and that humans have a near-infinite capacity for moral and intellectual growth. Raoden's idea that given a simple choice between good and evil, they will choose good... It's all there. Only the philosophy though. I just don't see anything based deliberately on doctrine.

 

Regarding Jasnah, though, and her realisticness, it's really not all that hard to sympathize with her. I've never been to an atheist forum in my life, but everything Jasnah said was something I'd already mulled over in my mind. I agreed with her, really. (though it doesn't hurt that vorinism isn't actually true)

Edited November 21, 2014 by mckeedee123

[Zas678 he/him]

So. The influences of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints on Brandon Sanderson. This topic has been very interesting to read. I'm an active member of the church, and I actually just got back from a 2 year full-time mission for the church. I've thought about this topic a lot, personally, and here are some of the connections that I would like to mention.

 

One is that Brandon, as he has said, is a "prude" which to me is one of the most clear signs of the LDS influence. We believe that sexual relations should wait until after marriage. He keeps sexual relations off screen and on the down low and it doesn't mention his characters having those relationships until they get married (such as Elend and Vin). Now if they're having these interactions off screen and without mention is possible (as I remember Brandon saying once), but he leaves it to personal interpretation. 

 

Another about military- and it is a bit different, I admit. But I just barely got back from a 2 year mission for the LDS church, as Brandon did many years ago. I went and for 2 years had limited communication with my family (email once a week and 2 phone calls a year). All my time was dedicated to sharing the gospel, and to help me do that, there is an organization in the mission. There's the basic companionship of 2 missionaries that have a specific area- then there's a missionary that's over 2 or 3 companionships, than a companionship of missionaries who's over 2 or 3 of those leaders, and so on and so forth.

 

It is a type of organization that allowed me to see many different leadership styles and see what worked and what didn't. I saw leaders who would do anything for the missionaries under their care, and others who seemed like they just didn't care. It's not the same as the military- I have the highest respect for those that are willing to defend their country, even with their lives. But it seems to me like serving a mission gives an idea of how the military might be. There's a level of influence in the mission (as I imagine it would be in the military) that goes way beyond any other boss, teacher or counselor. I at least recognize more of that reading Brandon's books now. 

 

Another one- It seems like Nohaden is based off of (at least partially) King Benjamin from the Book of Mormon. If you ask the majority of members of the Church, they will know about King Benjamin's speech at the end of his life that is to his people that talks about prayer, service, being a good parent, and about Christ. But it often isn't remembered that before that, he was a general and fought and defended his people with the sword. It's something similar with Nohaden. His teaching are fairly similar to King Benjamin's in The Way of Kings, and it's what he's most known for. But before that, he had to fight to defend and unite his people, something very few people know.  

 

I will likely have more as I think and remember more. And if anyone has more direct questions about the church or about why I believe what I believe, shoot me a message and I can explain a little more. Always happy to! 

[beef man]

Did anyone else besides me get the vibe from Sazed that there was potentially still a realm of influence that he hasn't reached and potentially a "higher power"? I got the feeling it was left open to suggest that as powerful as the Shards are they are not God and while it doesn't say there is a God above them I felt like things were hinted that it was a high possibility.

I'd give quotes but it was just a subtle vibe I got from a culmination of Sazed's post-Harmonization comments, especially in regards to Kelsier and the dead.

[Sandastron]

Hey all! I'm loving this conversation, this is actually something I think about a lot myself. I love seeing how a persons religions influences the story they tell. One thing I have noticed is that religious people who write tend to, without writing about their religion per se, write stories from the world view of their religion. For instance, Christianity believes that there is good and evil, that there is good in everyone, that we should love everyone, and that sacrifices have meaning. Knowing this about Christianity, certain details start to pop in Sanderson's work. For instance, when Shallan brings out the good in the deserters, or when Kelsier, or Vin, or Elend, sacrifice their lives to defeat evil, or when Kaladin chooses to do the good and honorable thing simply because it is the good thing, or when Kaladin fights to protect the man he hates... And those are only the examples off the top of my head, the list goes on and on. Even his inclusion of atheism comes from a world view of respect for all people and a recognition that all people must search for truth. I think his Christian world view is also the reason why the vast majority of his characters are heroes or at least people who are trying their best (unlike the more popular anti-hero style).

Anyway, this is an aspect of Brandon's theology influencing his writing that hasn't been mentioned yet and I thought it was worth mentioning.

 

The most fascinating thing to me about this is that, even though we all as 17th sharders, come from different beliefs, and also many atheists, we all can love a christian kind of story, (that is the kind of story that comes from the unique world view of a christian)

Edited December 4, 2014 by Sandastron

[PrncRny he/him]

It's interesting to me.that this thread has jumped back to the forefront in the last couple of months. It seemed dead for a year or so.

Its awesome to go back and read through it again

[Shardcellist]

Just a thought, but be sure not to hold everything here as an exact doctrinal point; much is being paraphrased or taken out of context. I would recommend looking up the information elsewhere if you want to be sure.

One thing I noticed was Shallan's response to Jasnah's talk with Taravangian. Her belief was based on the feelings of her heart, similar to how we believe that God manifests truth through the Holy Ghost.

Thank you all for such a thoughtful discussion!

[Chrono she/her]

Interestingly enough, I didn't really make the connection between the whole Old Vorinism thing and the Apostasy until someone mentioned it on this thread. Just goes to show you that even an LDS practitioner doesn't always grasp some references to the beliefs. I always saw it as a parallel to the old Roman Catholic church and their ideas of having the priest teach the crowd and not really letting them have any information. One of the ardents that Adolin speaks to says something to the effect of, "Now we let people worship and get to know the Almighty personally, instead of trying to preach to them what we believe." Which, now that I think about it, is an LDS/Christian belief: having a personal relationship with God. The practitioners of Vorinism also believe that the Almighty is their divine father, I think. I'm pretty sure I can find a reference somewhere, but I'm too lazy to actually go look it up.

 

I also love the character of Jasnah and the depiction of her beliefs. It's very refreshing to not see another Hollywood atheist. Even better, her character in the book is thought of in high esteem by the other characters who personally know her very well. Atheists are not raging Christian/religion haters who want no one to believe in God. Nor do all religious people wish to convert everyone in the world. Jasnah's "live and let live" approach warms my heart. We can all have tolerance for everyone, regardless of what we believe.

 

Speaking of tolerance, I'd just like to say thanks to everyone for being so thoughtful, intelligent, and considerate. This is an extremely delicate topic matter, but I knew you guys would have the dignity and sensitivity to manage it well. Well done to everyone who has contributed!

[The Honey Badger he/him]

Honey Badger performs Thread Necromancy

 

I've noticed a parallel between the LDS hymn "The Spirit of God" (page 2 in the hymn book), there are a few lines that resonate

 

"The visions and blessings of old are returning"

 This line reminds me of the SA with the surgebinding returning as the desolation comes. Also Dalinar's visions, it was said by the ardent talking to Adolin that during the Hierocracy, people would claim to have visions, and I'm not saying that Dalinar's visions are fake, but just that they are returning.

 

"We'll sing and we'll shout with the armies of heaven"

That rings of their beliefs in the Tranquiline Halls and how when they die they'll go and join the armies to win it back.

 

I'm sure there are other Hymns that have similar aspects, but that is one that struck me

[+Slowswift he/him]

Also worth noting are the similarities between Ruin and Satan.

 

We (LDS, though I don't know if this is a mainstream Christian thing, too) believe that a major way Satan works is by altering the truth or by not presenting the whole picture, thus leading you off the straight and narrow path slowly but steadily. (There's a really cool quote in Emperor's Soul similar to this, but I'm too lazy to look it up right now.)

 

Ruin operates in a similar way -- he changed a few words in the prophecy and all but ended the world.

 

EDIT: As a little side note, I actually mentioned this to my seminary teacher a week or so ago. Here's hoping I can get him hooked on Sanderson. 

Edited March 17, 2015 by Slowswift

[The Honey Badger he/him]

I recently (last sunday) gave a talk about how Satan attempts to deceives us, and I talked a bit about that same idea. 

[+Slowswift he/him]

I recently (last sunday) gave a talk about how Satan attempts to deceives us, and I talked a bit about that same idea. 

Hope the talk went well! I also gave a talk last Sunday (15th), though sadly I was unable to incorporate Sanderson references.

[Curiosity he/him]

Also worth noting are the similarities between Ruin and Satan.

 

We (LDS, though I don't know if this is a mainstream Christian thing, too) believe that a major way Satan works is by altering the truth or by not presenting the whole picture, thus leading you off the straight and narrow path slowly but steadily. (There's a really cool quote in Emperor's Soul similar to this, but I'm too lazy to look it up right now.)

 

Ruin operates in a similar way -- he changed a few words in the prophecy and all but ended the world.

 

EDIT: As a little side note, I actually mentioned this to my seminary teacher a week or so ago. Here's hoping I can get him hooked on Sanderson. 

 

I'm a Bible-believing Christian, and yes, it's not just an LDS thing. Any perversion of the truth is a lie, no matter how small. That's the way that Satan rolls.

 

Another thing to note is that Ruin and Preservation are created beings, just like Jesus and Satan, according to LDS theology. Does that blur the line between what can be good and evil? In LDS theology, should bad things (breaking pacts, promises- Preservation) be used to achieve good ends (the saving of lives and the world- Scadrial)? I disagree with the idea that Jesus was created, though (see "I and the Father are one", etc.).

 

P.S. Out of curiosity, not being part of the LDS church, what is your perspective on the Holy Spirit? I've been looking online, but I haven't found a satisfactory answer. You can PM if you want to. I recognize that it isn't necessarily on this thread's topic. And I'll probably have more questions once one is answered. It's just that I know there are LDS teachers and seminary students here, so I wanted to hear what you believe.

Edited March 18, 2015 by Curiosity

[Sirce Luckwielder he/him]

...

First, I agree with the sentiments of truth being altered is against God. God is truth, so altering truth is against him. Satan tries to use God's words as a shield to what his real intent is. He will give 1000 truths to hide one lie. He does that to make us think that what he says is true so he can lead us away from God.

This has been placed in a spoiler tag for convenience.

So, we believe that there is a Godhead. The Godhead has three bengs that are one in purpose. Because all three are perfect, they can be so in tune with each other, that they are basically one. That is why the scriptures say "I am in the Father and the Fsther in me. I and the Father are one." They are individuals that work with each other, thus: becoming one.

The Godhed

So there is God, who is the father of our spirit bodies. In the beginning, in the "Pre-Mortal" existence, we were all brothers and sisters. We are all children of Heavenly Parents. To become like them, there was a Plan presented in which we would come to earth and get bodies. Doing so would make us closer to being like God, who has both a spirit and a physical body. When God told us the plan, he asked who would orchistrate it on earth. Satan stepped forward and said that he would orchistrate the plan. He would force everybody to make the right decisions, they would have to follow the commandments of God and would not get any choice. He also wanted to have all the glory to be his. Heavenly Father would basically be worthless according to Satan. Christ then stepped forward and said that he would give everybody a choice to live according to God's plan, but he would not force them. He would also give all the glory to the Father. Obviously there is sin in the world, so the the plan that gave people choice, or agency, was the one that worked. Satan and those that followed him were cast out of Heavan. Because they directly opposed God, they can never have a body, and will suffer for all eternity.

The Holy Ghost, or Holy Spirit, is the third member of the Godhead. He has no physical body at this time. Because he does not, he can give us thoughts and comfort. He is the way that God communicates with us and opposes Satan. When we do good things, the Spirit will be with us. Following God's commandments will let the Holy Ghost dwell with us. Having him with us, we can feel and have thoughts that are directed from God, through the Holy Ghost, to us. So in a way Satan is the opposite of the Holy Ghost. Both of them can give us impressions, feelings, and thoughts, but the Holy Ghost gives us good thoughts and feelings and Satan tries to lead us away from God.

When you say that Satan and Christ were "created" Curiosity, I am not sure what you mean. Since most of Christianity views the Godhead as one being, I am assuming that you think that God acted through Satan and Jesus? They were puppets and he works through them? Sorry if this is not even close to what you believe at all, but I was a bit confused by what you said.

We believe that they are both distinct individuals who act for themselves. Christ follows God's will and is who carries out God's plan. Satan is another individual person who opposes God's will. He effects the worlds by giving us bad thoughts and feelings. To preserve agency, God allows him to have an effect on our thoughts. When we don't listen to those thoughts, we are doing what God wants.

When we follow the promptings of the Holy Ghost, he will help protect us from Satan's influence. We have to choose to follow him, but when we do, he helps us. When we follow him a lot, we get revelation from God. For example, say we have a decision to make, maybe we have two colleges that have accepted us and we are not sure which one to go to. Both opportunities are good, both can potentially lead us to have good lives. When we are living right, going to church, reading the scriptures, following God's commandments, he can give us promptings on where he would like us to go. Since he can see all of our potential and all that we can do by following either path, he knows what is best for us. Even then, we can choose fo follow his council or not.

This is like how aligning ourselves to a Shard's Intent will give us access to its Investiture. By doing the things that God wants, we get his power and guidance in our lives.

Regarding your question about if we can do bad things to accomplish good goals.

No. This life is just one step in the process. If we were to do what Tarivangian did, and kill people to try to stave off a Desolation, it would be a sin. Tarivangian is commiting willful murder. When a soul dies, they go to dwell with God. So, if a Desolation were to kill, say, 75% of the people on Roshar, then those people would go dwell with God. He would look at them and determine what should happen. God will see that everything is put right. It is not our job to do so. If someone were to attack your family and you fought him off, that is totally okay. Even if you kill him. You are justified. You did not want to kill him, you didn't start the fight. So long as you have not acted in malice or have done it in a bad way, you are fine. Even better would be to not fight them at all, first of all, you get to go back to God. Second, it would be an even greater sacrifice and would be counted to you more. But thinking that you can kill someone and that it will be okay is saying that you think that you are better than God, and know more than him. That is definitely sin.

Edited March 18, 2015 by Sirce Luckwielder

[Left he/him]

Pretty good summary^^^

[Triasmus]

One of our Apostles, President Packer, gave this story as part of a much longer discourse.

Over the years, as a diversion, I have carved wooden birds. Sometimes it would take a year to complete one. I would get specimens and measure the feathers and study the colors and then carve them. I would carve a setting for them. It was very restful. Sometimes when I would get unsettled, my wife would say, “Why don’t you go carve a bird!” It was a very calming thing in my life.

Elder A. Theodore Tuttle and I were going into town one day. I had one of the carvings. I was taking it in to show someone. We had put it on the backseat. At an intersection, he slammed on the brakes, and the carving tipped upside down on the floor and broke to pieces. He pulled over to the side and looked at it. He was devastated. I was not.

Without thinking, I said, “Forget it. I made it. I can fix it.” And I did. I made it stronger than it was. I improved it a bit.

Now, who made you? Who is your Creator? There is not anything about your life that gets bent or broken that He cannot fix and will fix. You have to decide. If some of you have made mistakes and you think you are broken and cannot be put together, you do not know the doctrine of the Church. You do not know what the Atonement was about and who the Lord is and what a power He is in your life.

 

I starting thinking how similar that is to how the magic users in the cosmere (I'm pretty sure it's more than just the Radiants, but even if it is only them, then it still works) have to be broken. Within those cracks something can come and make them stronger than they were. And if my understanding is correct, it's a spiritual break, rather than cognitive or physical.

[Sirce Luckwielder he/him]

Another thing I just thought of is the principle of intent. In the story of the widow's mite, a very poor old lady gives up two mites (think of it like two pennies) to the church. She is mocked by some very rich men. They have paid extremely large ammounts to the same fund, and they think that the widow's contribution is pitiful. Christ comes and teels the men that they have sinned, because the widow gave all that she had, even if it was only two mites. If the widow had more, she would have given it, but because she had only a little, she gave that.

This has Mistborn Two spoilers:

I think that the principle of intent ties closely to Vin at the end of The Well of Ascension. as we know, she gives up the power of the Well, thinking that she is going to save the world. In reality she has done something terrible, basically starting the end of it instead. But do we condemn her for doing such a heinous crime? No. Does she lose the ability to use Allomancy because she has gone against Preservation? No. Because her intent was to save the world, she was not punished, but exalted.

[Eilemelie]

As I know next to nothing about Mormonism and am pretty sure I've never even met an LDS I don't think I can contribute anything to that part of the discussion. However, some of you brought up Jasnah and atheism and I believe I have more to contribute there.

Jasnah is unlike almost every atheist I've ever met, myself included, and as I'm confident most people I've met fall on the scale atheist - non-religious I believe this is quite telling. Jasnah isn't a typical atheist, the people on the atheist forum that Brandon was in contact with weren't typical atheists! She does, however, bear a striking resemblance in her views to atheism as I've seen it online - typical american atheism. I don't know how commonthat kind of atheism is in other countries and I don't paint myself up as some expert on atheism, I just want to make clear how it differs from the kind I'm used to.

American atheism is much more active.

In contrast, what I'm used to isn't as much people having come to a conclusion that there is no place for religion in their lives as it is people who when you ask if they believe in a God answers something along the lines of "Of course not, who does?" Because to them it is as distant as believing in witchcraft or in santa. It's not a choice to not believe, it's just an absence of all religion. When you are born of non-religious parents, also have non-religious grandparents and almost everyone around you is non-religios, it's not hard to become so yourself.

Myself, I come from something of a midground. My mother and stepfather are Christian, almost "religious right"-ly so. I've lived with them about as long as I can remember, so of course I was draged along to church every sunday. And as many children I had no way to tell that my parents didn't know everything and only believed in these. Learning to think criticaly and asociating with non-religios peers brought me out of there.

Yet I'm not americanly atheist. Not having a religion seems to take up a rather big part of the typical american atheist's life. That might not be particulary true of everyone, but those who don't let it do that you'd never hear of without actually knowing them. Case in point with the people Brandon was in contact with, as they are likely to have about an equal interest in that as we have in Brandon's books. To compare, the most atheist things I tend to do constitutes of mentaly sighing whenever my parents say something ignorant and generally missinformed, cry foul when someone tries to use their religion to surpress me or people around me (a rare occurance, I might ad) and generaly being in the buissines of not having a religion.

Oh, and one more thing, agnostic is about certanity in what you believe, not a step inbetween religious and atheist. Compare with a gnostic person who is certainthat they know everything there is to know about the existence (or non-existence) of god(s). Those are two different scales and all combinations thereof are possible.

[Sirce Luckwielder he/him]

Thanks for saying that Eilemelie. I have only heard how Jasnah is like atheists, so that was good to hear your side. I haven't really associated with more than a few atheists (I live in a very church-oriented community). But those I have seen, are like Jasnah. I'm certain that not every athiest is the same, nobody is so you can't mold every single one together. Just look at all of the differences in people who do have religion, a lot of them are nothing alike. I think what Brandon was going for was an athiest in a very heavy community of people who are religious. In that time, almost every single person in the book has some form of religion, it is just the way that the culture is. So, when Brandon goes for an athiest being like an "American athiest," he is showing that come into play. You say that you are almost completely surrounded by athiests and that Jasnah is very different from how they are. Since Jasnah is surrounded by people who are almost all active in religion, it would make sense that she would be different.

[The Honey Badger he/him]

Hope the talk went well! I also gave a talk last Sunday (15th), though sadly I was unable to incorporate Sanderson references.

Sorry if you misunderstood me, Slowswift,  I didn't include Ruin in my talk, that would've been awesome, I only talked about that idea.

 

Edit to fix words

Edited March 19, 2015 by The Honey Badger

[Eilemelie]

Thanks for saying that Eilemelie. I have only heard how Jasnah is like atheists, so that was good to hear your side. I haven't really associated with more than a few atheists (I live in a very church-oriented community). But those I have seen, are like Jasnah. I'm certain that not every athiest is the same, nobody is so you can't mold every single one together. Just look at all of the differences in people who do have religion, a lot of them are nothing alike. I think what Brandon was going for was an athiest in a very heavy community of people who are religious. In that time, almost every single person in the book has some form of religion, it is just the way that the culture is. So, when Brandon goes for an athiest being like an "American athiest," he is showing that come into play. You say that you are almost completely surrounded by athiests and that Jasnah is very different from how they are. Since Jasnah is surrounded by people who are almost all active in religion, it would make sense that she would be different.

I agree with you that it makes more sence for her to be like an atheist in a religious context than ina non-religios one. However, I'm pretty sure not all atheists in religios context wold actually be that vocal about it. For me, the absence of a belief in a god seems a pretty strange thing for most people to go around talking about.

Edited March 19, 2015 by Eilemelie

[+Slowswift he/him]

Sorry if you misunderstood me, Slowswift,  I didn't include Ruin in my talk, that would've been awesome, I only talked about that idea.

Ah, sorry. Too bad though, that would have been awesome.

 

On another note, I really really really love this thread. If I could, I'd upvote every single one of you ten times for being such awesome people. 

[Sirce Luckwielder he/him]

I agree with you that it makes more sence for her to be like an atheist in a religious context than ina non-religios one. However, I'm pretty sure not all atheists in religios context wold actually be that vocal about it. For me, the absence of a belief in a god seems a pretty strange thing for most people to go around talking about.

You're right. In a normal life, with most people, they could be ostracized by society and to keep that from happening would hold their beliefs back, not publicizing them. But I think that we can all say that Jasnah isn't really like most people. She is definitely not normal. Is there another athiest besides her that would could look at? I