LDS Influences on Themes (Theology Time)

[Shardlet he/him]

Although this is an interesting topic to discuss, I'm not sure that this thread is the appropriate place to discuss it.

[Argent he/him]

The second half is my experience with the matter, but it was intended as an afterthought, not a topic for discussion. The first paragraph deals with one of the things that make the cosmere work, and in an interesting way nonetheless. I think it's far enough removed from our own world to be a safe idea for a chat. 

[Darkarma he/him]

I'll start out by saying I am in no way LDS nor have any particular specialized knowledge of such though I probably fall under Judeo-Christian with two parents who were paster/preachers for nearly half my life. So I'll try and apply some of what I recognized in the books from that in hopes of not offending people by commenting of a religion I have no experience in.

That said...

 

Thought I might chime in, one of the biggest points I noticed was how Sazed works actively to give everyone freedom to choose, the whole non-interference prime directive bit at the near end of AoL. "To give everyone freedom to choose" or something close to that I don't have the book in hand at the moment... but this particular comment from Sazed to Wax strikes me as one of the biggest things that I've found most people miss about christianity in general. The actions of a divine figure with immense power can and will eliminate the choices a mortal can make in choosing their own destiny.

 

This rings with the whole 'Why does god let bad things happen' kind of thing and you can see it a lot people wonder. And the afformentioned comment by Sazed to allow people to have choice is a big one. The gods in the cosmere, Returned, Odium and Ruin excluded, don't directly interfere with mortal's choices except when said mortals give up choice in favor of their faith. Wax in his faith in harmony allowed him to be directed to the events of AoL "I sent you to them" kind of thing. Or people turning to the Nightwatcher (Potential Cultivation) for boons. They give up a portion of their ability to choose to her and recieve something in as a result which seems a bit pilgramageish.

 

At least thats the main parts I saw in Brandon's works which also brought about my appeal with how Choice is taken in other works like Jim Butcher's Dresden Files where an Angel refuses to take action on the ground that it would limit a human's choice to do something.

 

I don't know how much this makes sense to others but it does to me.

Edited October 31, 2013 by Darkarma

[Mysty she/her]

Is there any word on whether or not the Physical, Spiritual, and Cognitive realms correlate to the Exaltation and three Kingdoms LDS doctrine? It has always seemed that way to me, but I haven't studied it in years and can't say my memory on the subject is all that good. But I do remember there being some reward system that governs what Kingdom you can... rule?... based on your actions. The "people attaining godhood" idea and all... 

I'd say no correlation exists between the three kingdoms of exaltation and realmatic theory except the number 3. it doesn't feel right to me.

 

/>  

Thought I might chime in, one of the biggest points I noticed was how Sazed works actively to give everyone freedom to choose, the whole non-interference prime directive bit at the near end of AoL. "To give everyone freedom to choose" or something close to that I don't have the book in hand at the moment... but this particular comment from Sazed to Wax strikes me as one of the biggest things that I've found most people miss about christianity in general. The actions of a divine figure with immense power can and will eliminate the choices a mortal can make in choosing their own destiny.

 

good call Darkarma, i'd forgotten about this. it was another one of the clues that tipped me off to Brandon being LDS. We have some statements of belief that Sazed's hand's off approach to godhood totally copies.

"We claim the privilege of worshiping Almighty God according to the dictates of our own conscience, and allow all men the same privilege, let them worship how, where, or what they may" Article of Faith #11

Edited October 31, 2013 by firstRainbowRose
Please do not double post.

[Argent he/him]

This Article of Faith #11 actually sounds very similar to how the Devotaries on Roshar work. They are supposed to be equal, and each one allows you to worship the Almighty in the way that is best suited to your own talents.

[Shardlet he/him]

Well, that's kinda a loose interpretation of AoF #11.  AoF #11 is more a statement that we believe in not being hostile to others who believe differently than us.  We recognize that we have been given free will and that, although we believe that we have the fullness of the gospel within the LDS church, we need to be respectful of other people's choices and beliefs.  It is more of an affirmation of the importance of freedom of religion.

[Peng the Just he/him]

I would just like to thank everybody on this thread for being so respectful, yet willing to discuss and contribute to hard topics such as religion. 17th shard is quickly becoming one of my favorite places on the internet.

[Observer]

How about all other religions being corrupted, and the solid truth being on metal plates buried deep underground? It takes a bit of wording trickery, but it's pretty much a straight up parallel for Book of Mormon.

[lizbusby she/her]

(I live right down the road from the first Mormon Church in Kirtland, Ohio and visited and learned about the history of the religion on a fieldtrip).

Do you mean the Kirtland Temple? Because that's actually owned by the RLDS church, or Community of Christ, and their beliefs differ significantly from LDS ones. Just an FYI.

I'm surprised that no one has mentioned how Ruin is unable to read people's thoughts in HoA. That is such a blatantly LDS belief about Satan: that he has no access to our thoughts, but can only see our actions. See the following references:

 

Yea, I tell thee, that thou mayest know that there is none else save God that knowest thy thoughts and the intents of thy heart.(Doctrine & Covenants 6:16)

“While Satan can convey thoughts, he does not know whether these thoughts have taken root unless they are reflected either in words or in actions.” (Elder Francis M. Gibbons, The Dual Aspects of Prayer, Ensign, Nov.1991, p.78)

 

 

Also, on the discussion of agency in Brandon's books, I think it goes beyond just the 11th Article of Faith. A strong belief in the moral agency of man is at the core of LDS beliefs. We believe that the whole purpose of God sending us into mortality was to give us the opportunity to exercise agency. We believe that before we came to Earth, Satan opposed this plan with one of his own in which all would be forced to live correctly, and all would return to God. We believe it was for this plan that Satan was thrust out of Heaven, as it says in Revelation. Denying the agency of others is literally the worst thing you could do in LDS theology. In each book/series, I've noticed that the bad guys tend to be those who want to take away or deny others the opportunity to choose (Lord Ruler, Hrathen, can't think of anyone from WoK now that I think of it . . . ).

 

 

Also, the whole men-becoming-Gods thing happens in each book: Elantrians in Elantris, Vin and Sazed in Mistborn, all the people who have held shards in the various worlds. LDS theology says that we are God's children, and therefore destined to become someday like our Father, that is, Gods and Goddesses. The preoccupation with what mortals do with god-like power seems to be a central theme of the cosmere, and a very Mormon theme.

Edited October 31, 2013 by lizbusby

[Mysty she/her]

How about all other religions being corrupted, and the solid truth being on metal plates buried deep underground? It takes a bit of wording trickery, but it's pretty much a straight up parallel for Book of Mormon.

I never thought about kwan's plate or the Lord Ruler's plates like that before but it makes complete sense! nice catch !

[Darkarma he/him]

I've noticed that the bad guys tend to be those who want to take away or deny others the opportunity to choose (Lord Ruler, Hrathen, can't think of anyone from WoK now that I think of it . . . ).

 

Whoever made Szeth what he is seems like they've made a good start on that particular path and the Almighty spoke that Odium would choose a champion... nothing was ever said that Odium's champion has a choice in the matter. In that regard Szeth seems a bit like Marsh prior to AoL if things follow a similar route.

[Two McMillion he/him]

This is what's so cool about these themes in the Brandon's books.  It's complicated.  Generally in fantasy if a character is atheist.. they're wrong because we know there are Gods.  Here we have being with God-like powers but as far as we know they're humans imbued with power.  It adds complexity and grey areas that keep me thinking about all of this.. like seriously a lot.

 

Yeah, it's interesting to think about. I mean, I had assumed that if Honor had presented himself to Jasnah and announced, "I am the Almighty" (whether or not it's a true statement about his level of power, he was apparently perfectly willing to accept the title) that she would believe in him, but upon consideration it's more complicated than that. I can see her response being, "Really? Prove it." And while Honor was no doubt able to accomplish quite a lot, really, how does one go about proving they are almighty rather than simply very powerful? Food for thought for sure.

 

In each book/series, I've noticed that the bad guys tend to be those who want to take away or deny others the opportunity to choose (Lord Ruler, Hrathen, can't think of anyone from WoK now that I think of it . . . ).

 

The Shin Elders, perhaps? Look what they did to Szeth...

Edited November 1, 2013 by firstRainbowRose
Please edit instead of double posting

[Draconis he/him]

I read somewhere a long time ago something that has stuck with me.  Sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic.  This is easy enough to see in our own culture.  Just a few centuries ago, someone talking into a cellphone would have been burned as a witch.  Brandon’s approach to magic through a scientific manner, I have found, is unique among fantasy writers.  A logical (to me), extension of advanced tech vs magic would be, a sufficiently advanced being is indistinguishable from god.  In WoK, the Almighty being Honour is an example of this.  An even better one would be Sazed/Harmony. Even a Shard of Adolnalsium has the power to create life as he/she/it sees fit.  However we know that Sazed/Harmony does not perceive himself to be a god.  One of the reasons I have enjoyed so much of Brandon’s work is because the very nature of the universe he has created has forced me to take a look at my own beliefs (without saying what or if they are  ) and filter them through this perspective.  All in all, I believe Brandon’s work with and portrayal of religious beliefs, or the lack thereof in the case of Jasnah, to be inspired.

[Gamma Fiend he/him]

I believe that even if Jasnah does find out about Honor and everything, she'll still be an atheist (at least my bias hopes so). Because I don't think of Shardholders as actual Gods, per se. they're just people with extreme amounts of power. Either way, Vorinism is still probably wrong, so I know that she won't ever go for that.

Also, @Lizbusby , yea I meant the Kirtland one. I didn't remember about the two different types. (RLDS and LDS). Even though I did learn about them and read parts of the book, I will admit I don't know too much about eithers' beliefs overall. All I really remember them saying is that was the place where Joseph Smith came and they built that. And I was just like, "Huh. Neat-o". Other than that, I'm not sure.

(and yes, this thread has been very pleasant, and that's great. I have honestly been learning a bit more about the LDS religion, and to me, that's just cool. I really like studying all kinds of theologies. Whether or not someone agrees or believes in something, their actions still have a real world effect. And if believing in that makes or allows you to be a good person, then it's alright in my book. You all have been great.)

[lizbusby she/her]

I believe that even if Jasnah does find out about Honor and everything, she'll still be an atheist (at least my bias hopes so). Because I don't think of Shardholders as actual Gods, per se. they're just people with extreme amounts of power.

It's interesting because in many ways, this fits with the Mormon conception of God. Our God is not the typical "Unmoved Mover" of most of Christianity, not uncreated. We also don't believe in creation-ex-nihlo (sp?)--that God made everything out of nothing. There's a famous theological couplet: "As man now is, God once was; as God now is, so man may be." We believe that all people existed as intelligences from the beginning, and God's role was more as an organizer than a creator. We also believe God went through the same process.

So for many Mormons, the distinction between "a person with extreme amounts of power" and "a God" is less than for other branches of Christianity. Of course, I would add "extreme amounts of moral and temporal knowledge" to that definition, which seems to be lacking from Sanderson's God figures, which makes their conflicts a lot more interesting. My point is, the Mormon God is a lot closer to a Shardholder than other conceptions of God. I'm not saying it's exactly the same, but I personally see a heavy influence there. I feel that a Mormon conception of God is what allows Sanderson to explore divinity and religion so logically.

(I admit that my interpretation of these doctrines is a little more liberal than some LDS. My father-in-law was shocked to find out that I do not believe in an omnipotent God, but one bound by the self-existent laws of the universe, but that's where my reading of the texts leads me.)

Edited November 1, 2013 by lizbusby

[The Question he/him]

Friends, please let me say how impressed I am with the intelligent discourse and general civility in this thread.

For a theme from Judaism, The Lifeless from Warbreaker are clearly influenced by the Golem, an old Jewish tale.

I'm not a Morman, and I'm afraid that I have little to contribute. I was quite moved by Sazed's crisis of faith in the wake of the tragedy with Tindwyl. I once had a similar experience and reading Sazed's reaction brought me to tears more than once.

[Argent he/him]

For a theme from Judaism, The Lifeless from Warbreaker are clearly influenced by the Golem, an old Jewish tale.

 

 

It's probably worth noting that the Jewish Golem is not necessarily the direct influence for the Lifeless. The idea has been adopted and adapted by many cultures, stories, and even entertainment franchises, so it's possible that it came from there. Granted, all of those can probably be traced back to Judaism, but for all we know Brandon could've been inspired by Heroes III golems. Highly unlikely, considering how well-versed Brandon is in the different cultures of the world, but I like playing the devil's advocate, working in the semantics department.

[Two McMillion he/him]

So for many Mormons, the distinction between "a person with extreme amounts of power" and "a God" is less than for other branches of Christianity. Of course, I would add "extreme amounts of moral and temporal knowledge" to that definition, which seems to be lacking from Sanderson's God figures, which makes their conflicts a lot more interesting. My point is, the Mormon God is a lot closer to a Shardholder than other conceptions of God. I'm not saying it's exactly the same, but I personally see a heavy influence there. I feel that a Mormon conception of God is what allows Sanderson to explore divinity and religion so logically.

 

Indeed, historically, Christianity's view of God as being not merely a humanlike being with tremendous power but something entirely different altogether is very unusual. If we lived in Ancient Greece or Scandinavia, we might not have any conception of the concept of "God" as the latter at all. So it's interesting that Vorrinism seems to have a conception of the Almighty being much more like Yahweh than Zeus. That would not have been common for a culture on Earth.

 

I wonder if Adonalsium was yet against a humanlike being with tremendous power, or if he was tilted more towards the Yahweh side of things. A bigger and better shard, or something truly Almighty?

[Isomere]

I see a good parallel between the fall of Vorinism and the Apostasy. The true religion is lost and a period of spiritual darkness occurs. Then the truth is restored and the power of the Almighty returns to the world.

The nature of magical power also has interesting correlations. In the Cosmere a person needs investiture to have access to the Power of Creation, but then must align his identity to the Shard through snapping or similar processes before he can use it. In Mormonism a person needs to be given the priesthood to have access to Gods power. To use it, he must be worthy which requires him to align his intent and behavior with Gods will. In both cases, you must have the right access and be the right person before using the power.

In terms of Jasnah, a heretic is not the same thing as an atheist. She seems very logic based in her approach to religion, and logically you cannot assume that no god can possibly exist without omniscience. Since there is no conclusive evidence for or against the existence of God, agnostisim is the only logical choice. She does have lots of evidence that Vorinism is corrupt and their doctrine is full of holes, so her rejection of the devotaries is logically sound, but I dont think she has completely ruled out the possibility of Gods. That said, when she learns about the Almighty I'm hoping she views it as a Space Alien with an astonishing quantity of Investiture.

[Khmauv he/him]

I know this isn't entirely on topic but I am really enjoying this thread. Mostly because of the diversity of belief that is represented (though admittedly highly biased toward mormonism) and the civility of the discussion. I wish there were a place where all beliefs were discussed is such a civil way. I would love to learn what people believe from there own lips (or fingers as the case may be) unbiased by the rage and hatred that inevitably arises when diverse ideas collide. 

Edited November 1, 2013 by Khmauv

[Shardlet he/him]

It's probably worth noting that the Jewish Golem is not necessarily the direct influence for the Lifeless. The idea has been adopted and adapted by many cultures, stories, and even entertainment franchises, so it's possible that it came from there. Granted, all of those can probably be traced back to Judaism, but for all we know Brandon could've been inspired by Heroes III golems. Highly unlikely, considering how well-versed Brandon is in the different cultures of the world, but I like playing the devil's advocate, working in the semantics department.

 

Actually, I'm pretty sure I read or heard a snippet from Brandon directly tying the lifeless ot a Jewish Golem. 

 

 

I see a good parallel between the fall of Vorinism and the Apostasy. The true religion is lost and a period of spiritual darkness occurs. Then the truth is restored and the power of the Almighty returns to the world.

 

That is of course making the assumption that Vorinism is/was the "true religion".  One of the interesting things about cosmere theology is that so far, there is no true religion (although a reasonable argument could well be made for Pathism in AoL).  For a religion to be a 'true religion' it must be formed under the direction and guidance of the god being upheld.  Pathism is the closest I have seen to this, since Kandra (under the apparent direction of Harmony) are apparently actively spreading this faith.  

 

 

I know this isn't entirely on topic but I am really enjoying this thread. Mostly because of the diversity of belief that is represented (though admittedly highly biased toward mormonism) and the civility of the discussion. I wish there were a place where all beliefs were discussed is such a civil way. I would love to learn what people believe from there own lips (or fingers as the case may be) unbiased by the rage and hatred that inevitably arises when diverse ideas collide. 

 

The bias towards Mormonism comes from the OP and thread title where we are exploring the potential influence of LDS (Mormon) doctrines and traditions on the worlds, cultures, and people Brandon has created.

[Kadrok she/her]

Call me dyslexic, but whenever I see the title of this post I read "LSD influences on Themes", especially if Gamma Fiend's trippy picture is next to it.

Edited November 1, 2013 by Kadrok

[The Rooster he/him]

I'm loving reading this thread. I thought there was a chance this could be a powder keg when I opened it up. Mods did a great job keeping it on topic early on.

I'm looking forward to seeing more of Vorinism in WoK it seems to have been obviously corrupted over the years or at the very least heavily changed (the sunmaker). I think they will be a force if opposition against the return if the KR and I'm looking forward to see how BS handles it.

[Gamma Fiend he/him]

Call me dyslexic, but whenever I see the title of this post I read "LSD influences on Themes", especially if Gamma Fiend's trippy picture is next to it.

Hahahaha. Glad I'm not the only one.

[Mysty she/her]

Call me dyslexic, but whenever I see the title of this post I read "LSD influences on Themes", especially if Gamma Fiend's trippy picture is next to it.

You know, my problem is the opposite. I see something about LSD and wonder why everyone seems drunk, because you don't get drunk at mormon parties...followed by the proverbial slap on the forehead as I loose the dyslexia.