What makes the Honorblades more powerful? (spoilers)

[Gloom he/him]

We know that discarding the honor blades is what prevented the Heralds from joining Taln in purgatory. The honor blades are key. So if someone else picks up one of the blades, its natural to assume that they have picked up the curse (or w.e you want to call it) with the blade.

The blades are not as desirable as people tend to make them appear, there is a huge weight/responsibility/curse that apparently broke even Jezrien.

 

Then by this definition, you're saying that claiming an Honorblade makes you a mortal Herald. I don't believe this even a little bit. I believe that the Honorblades would have forced the Heralds to comply with the Oathpact. This is why they had to be abandoned. If you aren't a Herald, then the Honorblades won't force you to comply with the Oathpact. Nothing said the Heralds had to die to be returned to the place that Taln was sent, only that you would be sent there if you did die.

 

 

But I survived, Kalak thought, hand to breast as he hastened to the meeting place. I actually survived this time.

That was dangerous. When he died, he was sent back, no choice. When he survived the Desolation, he was supposed to go back as well. Back to that place he dreaded. Back to that place of pain and fire. What if he just decided...not to go?

 

No where in this statement does it imply that you had to die to be sent back. By your theory, simply holding an Honorblade should be enough to send you to the place of pain and fire.

[Fistsofrage]

Then by this definition, you're saying that claiming an Honorblade makes you a mortal Herald. I don't believe this even a little bit. I believe that the Honorblades would have forced the Heralds to comply with the Oathpact. This is why they had to be abandoned. If you aren't a Herald, then the Honorblades won't force you to comply with the Oathpact. Nothing said the Heralds had to die to be returned to the place that Taln was sent, only that you would be sent there if you did die.

No where in this statement does it imply that you had to die to be sent back. By your theory, simply holding an Honorblade should be enough to send you to the place of pain and fire.

We are not provided with enough information to determine what the Oathpact is, but we are given enough to be wary of the honor blades. They are undeniably connected to the purgatory. I am questioning whether they can be safely used by non-Herald's with absolutely no consequences. That seems absurd to me, the blades do not come for free, there is a price. The purgatory seems to be a suitable price to me, but it might not to you.

I do not pretend to understand the long life spans of the Heralds, I don't even know how they were chosen. However, that doesn't make the purgatory theory any less viable, especially if the Heralds are indeed human.

Although, you are correct that the Heralds were sent purgatory whether they died or not (as long as they hsd the blades) which is even more troubling, and yet another reason why the blades are mysterious and dangerous.

[Shardlet he/him]

There are loads of possibilities on how this could play out.  Here are a simple few:

 

1) The blades can only be wielded by a Herald (Not very likely since Brandon said they could).

 

2) Taking up a blade connects you to the whole Herald Package Deal (To me not likely since for the whole package,seem like you would have to make a commitment/oath).

 

3) Non-Heralds can use the blade, but without the proper Oaths and commitments, it functions like a normal old shardblade (reasonably possible in my view).

 

4) Powers are given to the wielder of an Honorblade such that they have access to the surges of the KR order aligned with the blade's Herald (Also reasonably possible).

 

Etc., etc., etc.

 

Hard to come to any reasonable determination when the only info we have is that there were Heralds which each had an Honorblade which is presumably more powerful in some fashion than a normal shardblade.  The Honorblades behaved differently with Heralds than shardblades do with people (e.g., drop = dismissal; reportedly eye-change).  The Heralds apparently needed to forsake their blades to forsake their role in the Oathpact.  Each Herald was associated with a different order of the KR.  Likewise, each KR order apparently has a symbol associated with it and each symbol corresponds with a sword cross-guard (possibly an Honorblade).  The Heralds played some role in the Oathpact in which they presumably led the forces of Honor (and Cultivation?) against the forces of Odium.  If a Herald died they were sent to 'damnation' to be tortured until the time of the next desolation.  If they survived, they were to willingly go to damnation.  9 Heralds survived the last desolation and chose to forsake the Oathpact and their Honorblades because they couldn't handle going back for the torture.  This left one Herald (who died in the last desolation) to uphold the Oathpact.  Also, Heralds are immortal and are all still alive.

 

Although it is a big paragraph, there is little detail and substance that we know regarding any of those points.

[marianmi]

if the wielder of a honorblade would go to damnation, it means also he would be immortal. but it does not.

 

so, the immortality vs. damnation is one aspect, the honorblade giving surgebinding ability is another. the link is that the honorblades are link to that "equilibrium". abandon the blade, the equilibrium is lost (you are immortal w/o damnation, i guess the reverse would be possible too if you had the blade in damnation, but who would abandon the blade to be stuck forever in damnation?). however, the power of the blade remains. somebody else can pick it up and have the powers. the immortality and damnation is just for the heralds.

 

basically, the heralds may have severed the Bond with the blades (like Dalinar did when he handed it to Sadeas). w/o the bond, the oathpact is broken and heralds don't have to go to damnation. damnation was part of the oathpact. since this is broken, whoever gets the blade don't have to go to damnation, the oathpact will not "resume", it is broken forever (for that blade).

 

although it is clearly stated that "Honor is dead", I would say that technically this is not true. Honor still lives, just that is in a coma. He lost 9/10 of his faculties, maybe Honor is not "conscious", but is not dead. I don't think Tanavast's body fell out of the spiritual like Leras's did. It would have fell out if all 10 heralds would have left. A tenth of Honor is still out there. (This is me thinking that Honor IS the 10 honorblades, and the 9 heralds leaving = losing the shard intent for that much power)

[Fistsofrage]

What kind of benefits did the oathpact give them that they would endure something like damnation? There is too much that we don't know and it makes it difficult to make any conclusions, but I will stick by my wariness of the honor blades. They are not as convient as people seem to believe.

If the ideals are necessary for Radiants to obtain the true power, then perhaps the Oathpact played a similar role for the Heralds.

My point in saying this is that just having the honor blade probably won't provide the holder with extra powers unless they are under the Oathpact. So the theory attributing Szeth's powers to an honor blade is probably unlikely. Szeth is truthless after all, he has sworn no pact nor said any ideals.

Edited November 4, 2013 by Fistsofrage

[Shardlet he/him]

although it is clearly stated that "Honor is dead", I would say that technically this is not true. Honor still lives, just that is in a coma. He lost 9/10 of his faculties, maybe Honor is not "conscious", but is not dead. I don't think Tanavast's body fell out of the spiritual like Leras's did. It would have fell out if all 10 heralds would have left. A tenth of Honor is still out there. (This is me thinking that Honor IS the 10 honorblades, and the 9 heralds leaving = losing the shard intent for that much power)

 

Here comes a wet blanket.  WoB is solid, Tanavast (the holder of Honor) is dead.

 

Quote

Wetlander: Did the splintering happen before the Recreance?

 

A: I will reveal this as we go.  However, be aware that in the past, when a Shard was killed, the person holding it, it is a slow burn to actually kill someone; because power cannot be destroyed.  So, what it means to be killed means something a little different in these cases.

 

Hoser: did Tanavast survive Honor’s splintering?

 

A: Tanavast is dead.  Good question.  However, that is as of the start of the WoK (i.e., not including the prelude at least).

 

Hoser: So he could have survived the splintering…

 

A: He could have survived the splintering.

 

Hoser: …as a mortal…

 

A: Well, he could have survived for a time, but then he could not have then…right.

 

Hoser: …passed away in his sleep…

 

A: Right. (Indicating that Tanavast would not have passed away from old age)

Edited November 4, 2013 by Shardlet

[Fistsofrage]

So Tanavast survived, did somethings as a mortal and then was killed by Odium? Not sure I'm interpreting this correctly...

[Shardlet he/him]

Hoser apparently was 1) trying to find out if Tanavast is alive (which he is not); 2) Whether the holder of a shard could survive the splintering of the shard while he is holding it (which he apparently could); and 3) Whether a person who formerly held a shard is still functionally immortal (i.e., would not die from natural causes).  This answer was more muddy, but the feel I got from Brandon's response (I was standing right there listening) was that he could have survived for a time, but would not have lasted long enough to die of old age.  The important takeaway though, is that Tanavast is dead.

[Argent he/him]

@Argent — Ooh, I love surprises, which part would be a surprise? That the Honorblades may be in the possession of someone in Shinovar? That that someone has a great deal of influence over the Stone Shaman? That they provided Szeth with Jezriens Honorblade when he was made truthless? That they loosed him on an unsuspecting land and that he conveniently was in the right place at the right time to be handed off to the Parshendi to assassinate Galivar? I find just about everything about Szeth to be surprising.

 

I was responding to your question about how I would feel if Dalinar's eyes turned brown if he picked up Taln's Honorblade. I don't think one of the Honorblade's effects is to turn light eyes into dark and vice versa. Hence my hypothetical surprise.

[marianmi]

Forgot about that WoB (Tanavast dead). Thx, Shardlet.

 

Now:

 

* honorspren existed before Honor was splintered (and Tanavast killed)

* honorblades (heavily invested object by honor) existed before Honor was splintered 

 

=> where are the splinters formed when Tanavast was killed? Corresponding to a huge amount of investiture... ?

I don't think Roshar become honorspren land overnight. Also, with so many honorspren around, KR ranks would have been seriously inflated. Surgebinding would not have been "forgotten".

[The Count he/him]

I find it difficult to accept that Honorblades provide surges to the weilder...

 

For the simple reason that investiture on Roshar arises out of a persons actions, this is a key theme of the book.

 

I realise we may have Voidbinding (which may be different - or maybe not) and Fabrials (which circumvent the normal system).

 

However, Honorblades are from the time before Fabrials and it was ones actions which defined power.

 

To have an item granting powers to people seems contradictory to this.

 

I suppose there is a counter argument that the Honorblads were given to the Heralds and it was considered impossible that anyone else would carry them...

 

I could get behind the idea of Honorblades enhancing the Herald's power (just as stormlight enhancess people) but granting those powers?... I am not so sure.

Edited November 4, 2013 by MadRand

[Aether he/him]

Forgot about that WoB (Tanavast dead). Thx, Shardlet.

 

Now:

 

* honorspren existed before Honor was splintered (and Tanavast killed)

* honorblades (heavily invested object by honor) existed before Honor was splintered 

 

=> where are the splinters formed when Tanavast was killed? Corresponding to a huge amount of investiture... ?

I don't think Roshar become honorspren land overnight. Also, with so many honorspren around, KR ranks would have been seriously inflated. Surgebinding would not have been "forgotten".

There are WoB suggesting that there is now much more spren around than there used to be. Presumably, the general Spren population was inflated, but mostly by hundreds upon thousands (or something) of lesser spren with too little investiture to gain sentience.

[Gloom he/him]

I was responding to your question about how I would feel if Dalinar's eyes turned brown if he picked up Taln's Honorblade. I don't think one of the Honorblade's effects is to turn light eyes into dark and vice versa. Hence my hypothetical surprise.

 

Ahh, that! Suppose that Jezrien has green eyes. Szeth picks up Jezriens Honorblade, and because the blade is still linked to, and will always be linked to Jezrien on some level, it has the effect of temporarily turning Szeths eyes green. If so, then it would stand to reason that if Dalinar picked up Talns blade after Taln refuted it as the other Heralds did, that his eyes would turn brown temporarily while he held Talns Honorblade. This is just a supposition based on an equal lack of facts as the supposition that because Taln has brown eyes, that Honorblades wouldn't change a persons eye color. I'm not saying it's true, I"m saying it's just as feasible as refuting Szeths blade is an Honorblade based on the temporary change in eye color.

[marianmi]

I find it difficult to accept that Honorblades provide surges to the weilder...

 

For the simple reason that investiture on Roshar arises out of a persons actions, this is a key theme of the book.

 

I realise we may have Voidbinding (which may be different - or maybe not) and Fabrials (which circumvent the normal system).

 

However, Honorblades are from the time before Fabrials and it was ones actions which defined power.

 

To have an item granting powers to people seems contradictory to this.

 

I suppose there is a counter argument that the Honorblads were given to the Heralds and it was considered impossible that anyone else would carry them...

 

I could get behind the idea of Honorblades enhancing the Herald's power (just as stormlight enhancess people) but granting those powers?... I am not so sure.

 

 

Hence my theory about the oathpact. Give the heralds access to Honor's power, w/o the "actions" strings attached, and bet if they will taint it or not.

[Gloom he/him]

I'm basically in favor of the idea that the Blades are a gateway in the same way that a spren is a gateway. By placing the gateway into the sword, instead of placing the gateway inside the Herald, Honor basically gave the Heralds a way out. A backdoor.

 

It seems the gateway would by definition be the way that the Heralds would be transported to 'that place', but it would also be the means to access the surges. By placing the gateway in something that could be discarded, each Herald would know that they weren't slaves, they weren't damned by Honor, they were free men and women making a choice. Place the gateway inside the Herald, and I don't see how they could simply discard their responsibilities by discarding their blades.

[marianmi]

thank you Gloom, that's what i was trying to say as well...

[Guest Alaxel]

That's a compelling idea, Gloom. I like it. I'd upvote you if I could figure out how to do it on my phone.