Where are the extra Shardblades?

[Aether he/him]

I think there is an even bigger question here:

 

The 300 left in the Recreance vision are 2 orders of the last generation of knights only. But we know that the Radiants existed for several hundred years at least, maybe more.

 

If we assume that there were say 1000 sets of shards (plate and blade) in the hands of the KR at the time of the Recreance vision.

 

If we assume that ther orders we in existance for 500 years, that is ~10 generations so we could be looking at 10,000 sets in total unaccounted for. 

 

Unless they were handed down (I think this very unlikely) or unless there is a way to destroy the plate and blades, that is a lot of shards unaccounted for.

Why would it be unlikely for them to be handed down? These are highly powerful weapons, and it seems irresponsible and unlikely for them to make them in the tens of thousands.

[The Count he/him]

Why would it be unlikely for them to be handed down? These are highly powerful weapons, and it seems irresponsible and unlikely for them to make them in the tens of thousands.

 

There are several references in TWoK to suggest that shards are highly personal items:

 

1/ They are all unique - works of art even. I think probably tailor made for each individual.

 

2/ Dalinar says on numerous occasions that someone else weilding his blade feels wrong.

 

Not conslusive I grant you, but I am more incluned to believe that there was a way to destroy the blades rather than hand them down.

[Aether he/him]

There are several references in TWoK to suggest that shards are highly personal items:

 

1/ They are all unique - works of art even. I think probably tailor made for each individual.

 

2/ Dalinar says on numerous occasions that someone else weilding his blade feels wrong.

 

Not conslusive I grant you, but I am more incluned to believe that there was a way to destroy the blades rather than hand them down.

I am not inclined to believe there are tens of thousands of blades lying around, but your last suggestion seems reasonable. Plus, it has a nice way of avoiding ridiculous amounts of blades as well as making them remain highly personal.

[name_here]

I tend to believe that as many Shards as possible were created and used at once. The Desolations do not appear to have gone particularly well for humanity, so regardless of personal preference it seems rather unlikely they destroyed perfectly functional and powerful weaponry. I've previously noted that when Dalinar loses his gauntlet, he thinks that the Parshendi could potentially regenerate the suit from it, but it is most likely his armorers will regenerate the gauntlet first and the lost one will crumble. I think that each Shard is powered by something special and there's only a finite supply of them. Maybe the Spren they're hunting in the vision? That would certainly be worth going after and the Voidbringers would want to stop them.

 

They do seem to be highly personalized, but it's possible that each time a set is handed down a new suit or weapon is forged and the animating force gets transferred. Another theory that's been floated is that they could be resized and adjusted on demand by the Radiants. Actually, the Plate is probably resizable even in the current era; no one seems to have trouble with badly-fitting armor even though they have to take whatever set they can get their hands on.

[The Count he/him]

I always assumed the Plate regeneration thisng was because the plate had a strong singular cognitive identity embedded in each piece. Therefore each set is a cognitive whole and unique, therfore only one version can exist...

 

[Not sure if that was explained very well]

 

I see your point about destroying powerful weapons but consider.. By their very nature, the KR were very selective about membership. They kept a very tight control over the arts of war between desolations. 

 

It would be my guess that they would also keep tight control over the most powerful artifacts on Rohsar.

 

I have a pet theory that Shardblades / plate were supposed to crumble to dust when their Radient died. Unless they were given away freely by the Radiant in question, then the shards continued to exist under new ownership. Not got any evidence for this though.

 

Or it could even be as simple as the shards just degrade over time if they are not possessed by anyone (blade) or fed stormlight (plate). Even a relatively slow decay rate could see any unowned shards crumble in the years since the Radients and yet be undetectible to any individual.

 

Either I will put my reputation on the line and say that there was not a finite number of blades / plate that were handed down successive generations on knights... in fact I will add this to the 'I told you so' thread.

Edited November 4, 2013 by MadRand

[Gloom he/him]

I share the belief that the Shards were tied directly to their bearers, and to their bond. I believe what happened at the Recreance was that those we saw broke their spren bonds and as the spren bonds were broken their bonds to their shards were also broken.

 

 

A terrible feeling struck him. A sense of immense tragedy, of pain and betrayal. Stopping where he stood, he gasped, hand to chest. What was happening? What was that dreadful feeling, that screaming he swore he could almost hear?

 

I believe that this was why the Shards remained. This is why they didn't crumble away when the Radiant they were bonded to died. I believe this is why even now, as crippled as they are, the blades still cause their wielders to feel possessive of them. This is why Sylphrena was lost in the physical drifting upon the winds until she found Kaladin. This is why she loathes those blades. They are a reminder of what was lost. They are a reminder of honorable men turning their backs on what is right and good.

 

You want a third type of Shardblade, this is your third type. To say that a Radiant Blade is the same as a modern Shardblade is to say that a corpse is the same a living person.

[Aether he/him]

I share the belief that the Shards were tied directly to their bearers, and to their bond. I believe what happened at the Recreance was that those we saw broke their spren bonds and as the spren bonds were broken their bonds to their shards were also broken.

 

 

I believe that this was why the Shards remained. This is why they didn't crumble away when the Radiant they were bonded to died. I believe this is why even now, as crippled as they are, the blades still cause their wielders to feel possessive of them. This is why Sylphrena was lost in the physical drifting upon the winds until she found Kaladin. This is why she loathes those blades. They are a reminder of what was lost. They are a reminder of honorable men turning their backs on what is right and good.

 

You want a third type of Shardblade, this is your third type. To say that a Radiant Blade is the same as a modern Shardblade is to say that a corpse is the same a living person.

You really have a nice poetic way of putting it. And it ties in with what I believe to be the three types of Shardblades: Honourblades, "Radiantblades" and post-recreance Radiantblades.

[hoser he/him]

You want a third type of Shardblade, this is your third type. To say that a Radiant Blade is the same as a modern Shardblade is to say that a corpse is the same a living person.

 

Yes! Very poetic!  But a straw man nonetheless.  When I die, my corpse will not be the same.  It will change state but not type, it will still be a human corpse.

[Gloom he/him]

Very well, I leave it to you to show me how your theory is more cannon than mine. My theory is based off of actions and events that occurred in TWoKs. We know that something changed with the blades and plate on that day. We know that Sylphrena had been wandering the physical. We know that Sylphrena hates them. Please show me where in the book it is implied that there are Odium invested Shardblades. I accept that WoB is fairly dependable, but it isn't cannon, and when you measure it up against something that is actual cannon, it doesn't hold weight. So feel free to show me exactly how your theory is more plausible then feel free to discount mine however you please. If you can't then please don't attack it based on the fact that it doesn't agree with your own theory.

[hoser he/him]

Very well, I leave it to you to show me how your theory is more cannon than mine. My theory is based off of actions and events that occurred in TWoKs. We know that something changed with the blades and plate on that day. We know that Sylphrena had been wandering the physical. We know that Sylphrena hates them. Please show me where in the book it is implied that there are Odium invested Shardblades. I accept that WoB is fairly dependable, but it isn't cannon, and when you measure it up against something that is actual cannon, it doesn't hold weight. So feel free to show me exactly how your theory is more plausible then feel free to discount mine however you please. If you can't then please don't attack it based on the fact that it doesn't agree with your own theory.

Ah Gloom, I apologize if I have offended.  What is defense and what is attack can become murky. 

 

When you say that "pre-Recreance Radiantblades are one type of Shardblade and post-Recreance Radiantblades are another type", that is a thesis that contributes to our discussion and deserving of praise, rather than assault.  

 

Similarly, I have stated my thesis: "Radiantblades (pre- and post- Recreance) are one type". 

 

When you say: "To say that a Radiant Blade is the same as a modern Shardblade is to say that a corpse is the same a living person", who is throwing the first stone?  No-one is saying that Radiantblades are the same as modern Shardblades, but I am saying that they are of the same type.  In context, is that a misrepresentation and an attack?

 

Anyway, please accept my apologies.  I would rather shut up than offend you. 

[dionysus]

Thinking rare events are impossible is a problem with human cognitive bias. It is why people seem shocked when 100 year events happen all the time, even in your hometown every few years. (It is a once in a 100 year event for that particular event at that particular location, not any 100 year event worldwide.) So even if losing a shardblade is a once in a 1000 year event, over a 1000 years you would lose approximately  63% of the shardblades.

 

The key is that each shardblade has a .1% chance of being lost each year, not the whole group of shardblades has a .1% chance.

 

We can argue all we want about what the probability of losing a shardblade is, but even if we go for one chance in 2000 years you are still going to lose a lot over the timeframes we are talking here.

[Gloom he/him]

Ah Gloom, I apologize if I have offended.  What is defense and what is attack can become murky. 

 

When you say that "pre-Recreance Radiantblades are one type of Shardblade and post-Recreance Radiantblades are another type", that is a thesis that contributes to our discussion and deserving of praise, rather than assault.  

 

Similarly, I have stated my thesis: "Radiantblades (pre- and post- Recreance) are one type". 

 

When you say: "To say that a Radiant Blade is the same as a modern Shardblade is to say that a corpse is the same a living person", who is throwing the first stone?  No-one is saying that Radiantblades are the same as modern Shardblades, but I am saying that they are of the same type.  In context, is that a misrepresentation and an attack?

 

Anyway, please accept my apologies.  I would rather shut up than offend you. 

 

Heh, I wasn't offended, just frustrated at having evidence that is based off cannon information dismissed out of hand as being a strawman argument. I'll agree that it's just a theory. They are all just theories. It's speculative, but this entire Forum is speculative. I don't see it as a strawman argument because it would mean that I either didn't understand your position or was intentionally misrepresenting your position.

 

 

A straw man , is a common type of argument and is an informal fallacy based on misrepresentation of an opponent's position. The misrepresentation can be intentional or accidental. It is possible to unintentionally misrepresent an opponent's argument by failing to understand it in the first place and honestly communicating what one (wrongly) thinks is the actual argument. This can lead to opposition believing the creation of a straw man argument to be intended, when it may or may not be.

source

 

I do understand your position. This theory does run counter to your position, but I'm not misrepresenting your position, I'm presenting an alternative to your position. It may very well be wrong, but it isn't a strawman, and it does have corroborating evidence that can be used to support it. Our beliefs run contrary in this particular instance, but while I don't agree that Odium has invested directly in any type of Shard, I'm not dismissing your theory out of hand, which is exactly what you are doing when you call another persons argument a strawman.

 

 

Thinking rare events are impossible is a problem with human cognitive bias. It is why people seem shocked when 100 year events happen all the time, even in your hometown every few years. (It is a once in a 100 year event for that particular event at that particular location, not any 100 year event worldwide.) So even if losing a shardblade is a once in a 1000 year event, over a 1000 years you would lose approximately  63% of the shardblades.

 

The key is that each shardblade has a .1% chance of being lost each year, not the whole group of shardblades has a .1% chance.

 

We can argue all we want about what the probability of losing a shardblade is, but even if we go for one chance in 2000 years you are still going to lose a lot over the timeframes we are talking here.

 

Given the supposition that the vision Dalinar had was just one instance of a larger movement by the Radiants, I would find this to be a plausible possibility. My problem lies in geography. It appears that almost all of the Shardblades are confined to a very specific geographic area. If possibly thousands of Shardblades were abandoned by the Radiants, I would find it likely that they would be scattered far more widely than they are in the book.

 

Edit: added source for quote.

Edited November 4, 2013 by Gloom

[marianmi]

I would love if blades/plates would be personal items, invested by honour on their radiants or gained through the spren bond.

In this context, the theory that they remained when the radiants severed their bond would make sense... Lost, as Syl was lost on the winds.

 

I even can't see why blades/plates cannot be splinters, with sentience, coming from the spiritual as spren come from the cognitive to bond a Radiant.

Radiants talking to their armour/blade ... hehehe ... maybe this is how they were communicating ) plate-to-plate connections )

 

Joking aside, it can be both ways... personal items invested for you by the Almighty, crumbling to dust after your death, or just dumb items of power passed on from one knight to another, or fabrial with a spren trapped inside, or...

There is not enough proof for any right now.

[hoser he/him]

Heh, I wasn't offended, just frustrated at having evidence that is based off cannon information dismissed out of hand as being a strawman argument. I'll agree that it's just a theory. They are all just theories. It's speculative, but this entire Forum is speculative. I don't see it as a strawman argument because it would mean that I either didn't understand your position or was intentionally misrepresenting your position.

I do understand your position. This theory does run counter to your position, but I'm not misrepresenting your position, I'm presenting an alternative to your position. It may very well be wrong, but it isn't a strawman, and it does have corroborating evidence that can be used to support it. Our beliefs run contrary in this particular instance, but while I don't agree that Odium has invested directly in any type of Shard, I'm not dismissing your theory out of hand, which is exactly what you are doing when you call another persons argument a strawman.

Well, I may have been off, but please at least try to understand what I meant (not to imply that you haven't). 

 

This is a positive statement of your thesis: "pre-Recreance Radiantblades are one type of Shardblade and post-Recreance Radiantblades are another type"

This is a positive statement of mine: "Radiantblades (pre- and post- Recreance) are one type"

When you said:

To say that a Radiant Blade is the same as a modern Shardblade

It looked like a strawman version of my thesis because it moves from talking about distinct types of blades to talking about blades being distinct.  It was not your thesis I took as a strawman argument, but that sentence, which I may have misinterpreted.

 

On reflection, my use of the word strawman does not seem helpful and I will try to avoid using it in future posts.  While I may have thought you were stating an incorrect version of my thesis on the way to stating yours, your thesis seems valid and it I don't really know what you meant.  

 

TL;DR: good point. sorry 

[Gloom he/him]

Ahh, okay, I see that. From that perspective it does look like a strawman. You could very well be correct that Brandon considers Radiant Blades as the same type of blade both before and after the Recreance. I personally believe that Szeths blade is a red herring in regards to the three types of blades. I could be wrong, I'm definitely not going to jump on the 'I told you so' thread and espouse my theory.

 

If Szeths blade is a third type of Shardblade, it's origin baffles me. I don't believe that it is a creation of Odium though. At best, I would say that some Shardblades may have been corrupted by Odium, just as he can corrupt spren. I generally see Odiums investment in Roshar as the absolute minimum necessary to accomplish his goals. I'm completely convinced that Odium is very conservative with the amount of power he is willing to let go of and invest into anything. I consider Rayse to be something of a selfish egotist who believes in his own superiority.

[Fistsofrage]

There is a "builder" radiant classification. ..if the blades/plate can be made, perhaps this has something to do with it...

[Gloom he/him]

I'm more than happy to concede that the Plate is something that a Bondsmith could craft, but I believe the Blades are a function of the bond itself. If they were nothing more than fabrials, I don't believe that Syl would have had such strong feelings towards them.

[marianmi]

Given that a fabrial traps a spren, we don;t know how Syl would react to a fabrial with a trapped honorspren in it.

[Gloom he/him]

Only modern fabrial are known to trap spren. After the explanation in the book about how fabrial are created, Navani then mentions that ancient fabrials were nothing like modern fabrials. If ordinary spren didn't exist prior to Honors demise, then creating fabrials as they are currently would be impossible because the spren required to create them wouldn't have existed.

[DocHoliday he/him]

Aether, on 04 Nov 2013 - 02:03 AM, said:

I am not inclined to believe there are tens of thousands of blades lying around, but your last suggestion seems reasonable. Plus, it has a nice way of avoiding ridiculous amounts of blades as well as making them remain highly personal.

Ten of thousands of Blades and Plates are just as likely to be missing as a thousand. (Man that sounds weird to say). These artifacts are the RL equivalent of Nukes. Losing a thousand nukes is unlikely. Losing 10 thousand is also unlikely. But if someone/ group had the time, money, and ability to steal a thousand nukes from America, it's not so far fetched they can take 10x that number.

Edit: alright it is more unlikely, but is it prohibitively more unlikely?

Edited November 5, 2013 by DocHoliday

[Aether he/him]

Ten of thousands of Blades and Plates are just as likely to be missing as a thousand. (Man that sounds weird to say). These artifacts are the RL equivalent of Nukes. Losing a thousand nukes is unlikely. Losing 10 thousand is also unlikely. But if someone/ group had the time, money, and ability to steal a thousand nukes from America, it's not so far fetched they can take 10x that number.

Edit: alright it is more unlikely, but is it prohibitively more unlikely?

Well, the likelihood of such a group in the first place s rather slim (I mean, stealing that many nukes without getting caught? That would employ way to many people to keep it secret (unless they just bribed the guys at the airport security ("Yeah, I GUESS that bulge in your pants it's just your way of showing your happy to see me"))).

 

But yeah, if you really push it, I guess it could be said to be possible (in the strictest sense of the word) that there are tens of thousands of blades lost, though highly unlikely. But then the chance of people just randomly finding Shards while exploring or maybe even just farming the land would skyrocket, but there is no in-world information of this ever happening. Shards are earned by killing a Shardbearer, not by (re-)discovering them.

[Gloom he/him]

I'm almost willing to bet FeatherWriters right arm that the Shards Dalinar saw dropped in his dream were the only ones that were ever available to anyone who wasn't a Knight Radiant or Herald. My primary evidence for this is geography. It appears that almost all of the Shardblades are confined to a very specific geographic area. If possibly thousands of Shardblades were abandoned by the Radiants, I would find it likely that they would be scattered far more widely than they are in the book. Instead the vast majority of Shards are in Alethkar, almost every other remaining Shardblade is in Jah Keved. This leads to to believe that Feverstone Keep was an Alethi border fort between Althela and Valhav.

[marianmi]

* maybe those 2 orders were the only ones that dropped their shards to humans, others may have left them in Urithiru or something...

* maybe not all orders had shards, or both plate & sword - only those fighting Thunderclasts. I would assume the enemy was not all about big monsters, it had some more... subtle... creatures.

* by the time those 2 orders quite, the rest may have quit already/been dissolved... maybe those were the last radiants left... and they had all the KR's shards

* since shards are heavily invested objects, I find it hard to believe that you had tens of thousands of them...

 

so we can't really learn much from that vision, except that al some point there were 200 radiants and 200 shards. From here to tens of thousands is a preeety beeeg step.

Edited November 5, 2013 by marianmi

[Gloom he/him]

* maybe those 2 orders were the only ones that dropped their shards to humans, others may have left them in Urithiru or something...

* maybe not all orders had shards, or both plate & sword - only those fighting Thunderclasts. I would assume the enemy was not all about big monsters, it had some more... subtle... creatures.

* by the time those 2 orders quite, the rest may have quit already/been dissolved... maybe those were the last radiants left... and they had all the KR's shards

* since shards are heavily invested objects, I find it hard to believe that you had tens of thousands of them...

 

so we can't really learn much from that vision, except that al some point there were 200 radiants and 200 shards. From here to tens of thousands is a preeety beeeg step.

*I believe that Feverstone Keep was the only place in which Shards were abandoned where others could attain them. Perhaps this was the beginning of the Recreance, and after the Radiants saw the results of their actions decided to abandon the rest in a location that would be inaccessible to anyone but a Surgebinder. Then again it could have been the last group, but If I recall correctly, there were other Radiants nearby when that scene occurred.

*

 

Q: Did all orders of Knights Radiants use Shardplate?

A: It was available to all of them, and they could (all) use it. Many Knights (not Orders) chose not to. There were Knights who were not soldiers and had not interest in wearing Shardplate.

source

*

 

What we have in Roshar is that the Knights Radiant did exist, and were in a way a high point of honor among mankind, but then for various reasons they fell.

Theoryland

We can assume from this that there were several factors that led to the fall of the KRs.

[Malim he/him]

Hi all,

 

Here's how I see it. 

 

1) The KR were primarily a military order that was based in Urithiru.  It would make sense then, that their armory and primary garrison was located there.  Now, in most militaries, there are a certain number out on patrol/remote postings at a given time, while the majority are confined to garrison, especially in times of relative peace.  In Dalinar's vision, while there is a border skirmish going on, there is no reason to suspect that a larger war requiring a large deployment was taking place.

 

2) There is no reason why shardblades have to be permanently bonded to a user.  In fact we have seen two cases where they are specifically not: When Dalinar trades his blade to Sadeas, and the custom of renting plate/blades for duels.  This could mean that when KR weren't in the field they kept their armor and weapons stored in case they were needed.  (As pointed out, Mr. Sanderson said they were available to all the orders, even those that didn't generally use them.)

 

3) If the above 2 suppositions are true, it would stand to reason that most blades/plate were stored in Urithiru at the time of Recreance.  It's quite possible, then, that what Dalinar saw were the only KR in the field at the time.  The rest could just have easily left their armor and weapons in garrison and walked away.  Since no seems to know where Urithiru is/was, and it may have been largely inaccessible to the general population, I think that most blades/plate are still there, wherever that may be.  If you subtract the blades that are held and not known, and those that have been lost over the years (shipwrecks in deep water, etc), I think we can arrive pretty easily at the known number out there.

 

Just my 2 cents.

 

*goes back to lurking*