Complementary Shardumvirates (Why these Shards together?)

[Swimmingly he/him]

The way shards are grouped, planet to planet, is extremely convenient, e. g Preservation and Ruin, Domination and Devotion, Honor and Cultivation and Odium, etc. I suppose the plot requires opposing or at least complementary powers, but is there something deeper to this? I theorize that certain groups of Shards were bound more closely after the Shattering, which is why they ended up on the worlds together like they did.

[Vortaan he/him]

Or the people holding those Shards were romantically linked, friends, or formed alliances. Remember that immediately after getting a Shard, your basic personality doesn't seem to change much. It's with a large amount of time that the Shard takes over. I think it's probably safe to say that Ati and Leras stayed together on purpose to check each other. Honor and Cultivation were romantically linked, and it's not a stretch to think Devotion and Dominion could be too. Odium and Honor could have had a problem before they were Shards, and now that I think of it hatred is something you can cultivate just as easily as honor... is the whole conflict on Roshar in some way a fight over Cultivation?

[Mailliw73 he/him]

So Tanavast and Rayse were fighting over Cultivation's hilder's love? I like it.

[bartbug he/him]

Also, we haven't seen nearly half of the Shards yet. It's too early to start dissecting this part, I think. But the original personalities probably had something to do with it.

[Argent he/him]

I wouldn't say Honor, Cultivation, and Odium are at all complementary. Or opposite. In fact, I see in explicit relationship between the three - or even any two of them.

[WeiryWriter he/him]

On Ruin and Preservation

 

Brandon has indicated that they settled together because they are such perfect opposites.  They were drawn together like the two poles of a magnet.  I don't think they really had much of a choice in the matter.

 

On the Greater Roshar Shards

 

Honor and Cultivation probably settled together because they were in a romantic relationship.  I doubt that Odium and Honor are fighting for her love, because that is super against Odium's Intent.  (Also I think it is important to point out that although Odum is invested in Roshar it isn't his homeworld, he "lives" on a different planet)

 

Also, remember that there is probably at least one more shard in this system on Ashyn.

[Vortaan he/him]

On Ruin and Preservation

 

Brandon has indicated that they settled together because they are such perfect opposites.  They were drawn together like the two poles of a magnet.  I don't think they really had much of a choice in the matter.

 

On the Greater Roshar Shards

 

Honor and Cultivation probably settled together because they were in a romantic relationship.  I doubt that Odium and Honor are fighting for her love, because that is super against Odium's Intent.  (Also I think it is important to point out that although Odum is invested in Roshar it isn't his homeworld, he "lives" on a different planet)

 

Also, remember that there is probably at least one more shard in this system on Ashyn.

 

Weeeelllll... is it? Hate and love can look very similar from the outside. I honestly don't think it's true, but it'd be kind of funny if people with the power to create sentient beings end up acting a lot like Shakespearean lovers

[Mailliw73 he/him]

The Shard Odium would take a while to influence Rayse's actions. I think both Tanavast and Rayse could've been in love with Cultivation's holder before they took up the shards.

[Dros]

Hatred of the man who stole your love is not uncommon...jealousy. If Odium wants nothingness, it could be a "if I can't have her no one will" type thing. However, he's also going around killing other Shards. There's probably something else going on.

[Oudeis he/him]

The way shards are grouped, planet to planet, is extremely convenient, e. g Preservation and Ruin, Domination and Devotion, Honor and Cultivation and Odium, etc. I suppose the plot requires opposing or at least complementary powers, but is there something deeper to this? I theorize that certain groups of Shards were bound more closely after the Shattering, which is why they ended up on the worlds together like they did.

 

Interesting theory, but I'm afraid I don't agree with your underlying premise.

 

I get Ruin and Preservation, although Mr. Sanderson makes a big point that they are opposed but not opposite: the opposite of Ruin would have been Creation, Preservation is simply a balance between those two.

 

However, I do not see how Devotion and Dominion, or Cultivation and Honor, are at all matched in any way. I can see how loving something (Devotion) and wanting to control it (Dominion) could be seen as related, but can't you say the same of Devotion and Honor? Both are codes of conduct considered 'stalwart'. You can point at two things and start trying to draw connections, but that doesn't mean they are exclusively or explicitly "complementary". My ham sandwich goes well with swiss cheese; that doesn't mean they "belong" together any more than mozzerella would. And how are Cultivation and Honor related at all?

[Shardlet he/him]

 And how are Cultivation and Honor related at all?

 

EWWW!  Hopefully not at all

[WeiryWriter he/him]

I get Ruin and Preservation, although Mr. Sanderson makes a big point that they are opposed but not opposite: the opposite of Ruin would have been Creation, Preservation is simply a balance between those two.

 

Actually, Brandon has said they are opposites.

 

 

 

Links:

http://www.theoryland.com/intvmain.php?i=622#108

http://www.theoryland.com/intvmain.php?i=691#9

http://www.theoryland.com/intvmain.php?i=618#55

 

a more coherent reply is on the way, I just wanted to get this posted because I have to leave like five minutes ago.

[Dros]

It's a little odd that Preservation would inherently give up its power to fuel Allomancy, because you'd think he would preserve himself, you know? Does that make sense?

BRANDON SANDERSON

Preservation, as a Shard, is about preserving life, people, and the like. Not about self. No more than Ruin is about destroying self, or Cultivation is about growing herself.

 

 

 

Like the links! Thanks, Weiry. Thought the above answer was interesting. Brandon has said that Odium is taking out the other Shards without picking them up because he wants to be the only Shard and he didn't want to change his Intent. That's a self absorbed reason to go about your business, in my opinion. Is there something else he's trying to accomplish, or is there a reason his Intent is fulfilled through those actions?

[Shardlet he/him]

Naw, Odium's intent was already compatible with Rayse's personality when he picked it up.  Rayse likes himself the way he is and doesn't want to risk the change that would come with new shards added in.

[WeiryWriter he/him]

Okay, actual explanation time.

 

Basically Brandon describes Ruin as the embodiment of entropy and change while Preservation is the embodiment of stasis.  Those are opposites. He has only ever referred to Ruin and Preservation as opposites, I've found nothing to suggest that they are not so.

 

(So... That was not as long as I expected it to be.)

[Oudeis he/him]

All right. I think it could be said that if you look at it from that perspective, change versus stasis, they are opposite, the way if you look at numbers as binary, 1 and 0 are opposite, even though if you apply a different framework, the opposite of 1 would be -1, the way the opposite of "destruction" would be "creation", not "preservation". But that's not my big point of contention here; I accept that those Shards are complementary, we're just nitpicking.

 

I still say there's nothing complementary about Honor and Cultivation, or about Devotion and Dominion. You can point out similarities, but not exclusive ones.

[WeiryWriter he/him]

All right. I think it could be said that if you look at it from that perspective, change versus stasis, they are opposite, the way if you look at numbers as binary, 1 and 0 are opposite, even though if you apply a different framework, the opposite of 1 would be -1, the way the opposite of "destruction" would be "creation", not "preservation". But that's not my big point of contention here; I accept that those Shards are complementary, we're just nitpicking.

 

I still say there's nothing complementary about Honor and Cultivation, or about Devotion and Dominion. You can point out similarities, but not exclusive ones.

 

Personally, I wouldn't say it was nitpicking.  You were saying they weren't opposites when in fact they are.  Shardic Intents, while often described by a single word, are very complex.  Yes, the "words" are not opposites but the Intents are.

 

Also the point of this thread is to discuss why certain groups of shards settled together.  One reason is because of complementary/opposing intents as is the case with Ruin/Preservation.  Honor and Cultivation do not fall into that group, no one is trying to say that their intents are complementary, they settled together because of their romantic relationship.

[Oudeis he/him]

Personally, I wouldn't say it was nitpicking.  You were saying they weren't opposites when in fact they are.

 

It's nitpicking because the point of this thread is that they are correlated in some way, however that way is. Everyone agrees on that. The specific correlation isn't germane to the topic, and that makes it nitpicking.

 

Honor and Cultivation do not fall into that group, no one is trying to say that their intents are complementary, they settled together because of their romantic relationship.

 

Please see below...

 

The way shards are grouped, planet to planet, is extremely convenient, e. g Preservation and Ruin, Domination and Devotion, Honor and Cultivation and Odium, etc. I suppose the plot requires opposing or at least complementary powers, but is there something deeper to this?

 

So yes. The OP is flat-out saying here that those Intents are opposing or complementary. As I said before, I don't accept that premise. I don't think either Devotion/Dominion, or Honor/Cultivation, either oppose or complement. So basically, my response to the intent of this thread is, there's nothing forcing correlated Shards together, for the express reason that out of three groupings we've seen, only one has correlated Shards.

[Shardlet he/him]

I think it is at least somewhat clear that the Shards chose to go where they did.  This is most especially evidenced in Honor and Cultivation.  I think a lot of it comes down to personal relationships among the holders of the shards.  Unfortunately we only have information Tanavast was romantically involved with the holder of Cultivation and,from Hoid, that Rayse sucked and Ati was originally a pretty good guy.  Not much to go on I'm afraid.  We know that Ruin and Preservation cooperated and I think we can assume that Dominion and Devotion also cooperated since Brandon indicated that all Selish magics were of Dominion and Devotion.

[Mailliw73 he/him]

I think Ati and Leras were probably friends originally and maybe the same for Devotion and Dominion's holders.

[Dros]

I thought WoB stated: Ruin and Preservation settled because they were opposites, but that's not necessarily true as to why all the Shards settled where they did. So, there's probably some reason why opposite Shards attract, but they don't HAVE to be opposites. It sounds situational to me. There are reasons behind the groupings, opposites attracting being only one of them.

[Wonko the Sane he/him]

From Cultivation and Honor, we have clear evidence that the Shards had at least some choice in choosing their planet. Their intents have almost nothing to do with each other, and with a one in fifteen chance, it seems unlikely that each would end up randomly paired with the exact person they would have chosen. Additionally, we know that Odium goes on vacation all the time. If he didn't like Braize, it seems like he could easily go somewhere else and live there instead. In fact, regardless of where they originally landed, all of the Shards apparently have the choice to set up shop wherever they want.

 

Now, Word of Brandon tells us that Preservation and Ruin had almost no choice but to settle together. What if that doesn't refer to a literal compulsion, but to a rational decision (as in, "I have no choice but to go to work today")? Perhaps they could easily have settled anywhere they wanted, but the alternative to settling together was so unappealing that it really wasn't an option at all. Remember the sorts of things that happened when the two became unbalanced by even a little bit? Either the world stagnated and decayed for a millennium, or it suddenly rushed headlong into the apocalypse. Basically, both of them knew that they would ruin everything, given the chance, so they needed someone they could count on to be an absolutely obnoxious jerk and prevent them from messing with anything - someone who would, just out of principle, systematically oppose literally any decision they made. Had the Shard they chosen to settle down with been any less opposite, occasionally their intents would align, and these moments of freedom would gradually accumulate. Thus, in a manner of speaking, they would have 'had no choice' but to settle together - even though they were actually free to go wherever they pleased.

[Arook he/him]

Good point Wonko it seems to me that preservation would have been compelled to follow ruin to prevent him from destroying everything he ran into. Ruin may have chosen to settle there and preservation followed him to undermined him a every turn. in the beginning they would have been shaped less by the shards will too.

[Oudeis he/him]

I was actually thinking about Intents and independent will yesterday.

Preservation agreed to weaken himself to create humanity, he betrayed Ruin and sacrificed his own mind. He set up a plan that would require his own and Ruin's deaths, just so humanity could grow and progress.

All for the express purpose of betraying his own intent.

He wants stasis. That is his intent. His stalemate with Ruin was the definition of that. preservation set up literally the entire trilogy and thousands of years of history all to work as hard against his own Intent as possible.

Leras was pretty hardcore, is what I'm saying.

[Araris Valerian he/him]

At the start, Aticould have agreed with Leras's motives. They originally were in control of their intentions, so they might have collaborated to counter each others powers and then Leras betrayed Ati when he realized that eventually Ruin would become more powerful.