SPOILERS!!! (duh) Shadows of self blurb

[Krazeemee he/him]

I already pitched this idea to some people, but does anyone have any thoughts?

 

So, when reading the piece from shadows of self, I noticed a little something, and I'm wondering if anyone else caught it.

At the end of the first chapter, Wax sees Bloody Tan, who he knew was dead, as he shot him in the face. He is confused and wonders if he actually saw Bloody Tan, or if he was slowly going crazy. This would have been alright (to me) except that I remembered in Alloy of Law (page 157) there was an article in the Elendel Daily (the little interludes scattered throughout the book) and I quote
"'The Faceless Immortals Saved My Life!' A women in the Fifth Octant suffered a harrowing experience when a fire broke out in her tenement. She and her children were saved by a shadowy figure SHE SWORE WAS WEARING THE FACE OF HER DEPARTED HUSBAND... yada, yada, yada."
So, dead people coming back to life, eh?

 

Okay, this is were it get controversial. Who do we know thats still hanging around up there, up to no good, and would LOVE to come back into a world where everyone worships him and mess with people (give them fake prophecies and mischief like that)?

 

http://www.theoryland.com/intvmain.php?i=706 (look at #6)

 

And, no Aeromancer, its not kandra...  (#12 in the above link)

[hoser he/him]

Bloody Tan wasn't just any criminal.  His crime seemed pointless, and he seemed to know too much.  Whether or not random dead husbands are showing up, I'm not surprised to see him again. 

[Krazeemee he/him]

Bloody Tan wasn't just any criminal.  His crime seemed pointless, and he seemed to know too much.

Too much what?

[hoser he/him]

Too much about what Wax would do next.  I don't have the text to find quotations, as I borrowed the book from the library, but my steadily worsening memory suggests that he seemed to almost have a precognitive awareness of Wax's actions. 

[ProfessionalLurker she/her]

The whole Bloody Tan incident screams of atium to me. I was surprised that it wasn't confirmed in-text, so I assumed it would feature as part of the over-arching plot. For that matter, once I knew that Alloy was set specifically 300 years after Mistborn I assumed that the atium Kelsier "destroyed" would begin regenerating and play a key part. 

 

 

"I pretty much ended atium production in the Final Empire for the next three hundred years or so." - Kelsier, pg. 550 of my paperback copy, emphasis added because even Kel isn't that dramatic.

 

...but all of that is circumstantial and completely unconfirmed. It seemed obvious to me, so I didn't go looking for confirmation. I just don't trust Sanderson "coincidences" anymore. 

 

As far as Kelsier being meddlesome, I'm willing to buy that he would be saving people from burning houses. I'm not so sure on impersonating a dead criminal who caused deep emotional trauma to one of his best friend's only descendants. I'm still voting Kandra here until we see more info. And if Bloody Tan is dead in any way we'll never know if he was for sure burning atium, and that would make me sad.   Not that I want him to be alive...I just want to be right...

 

I am, however, deeply concerned that Kelsier may be the author of "the book," which would explain the quote about his meddling (and Brandon's quip about "it sure doesn't sound like Marsh" instead of confirming it was Spook). It's also late where I am, and I'm deeply concerned that I don't know Kelsier's last name (Is it ever said? Either his mother's last name, or his father's noble family name? IS IT???) so take all this with a grain of salt.

[The Rooster he/him]

The whole Bloody Tan incident screams of atium to me. I was surprised that it wasn't confirmed in-text, so I assumed it would feature as part of the over-arching plot. For that matter, once I knew that Alloy was set specifically 300 years after Mistborn I assumed that the atium Kelsier "destroyed" would begin regenerating and play a key part.

 

Do we know if atium even still exists? 

Ati is dead. 

The only reference to it in the text of Alloy of Law was from Miles (who knew alot) and he referred to it as "the lost metal".  Maybe this dudes burning

Sazedium!

[Moogle]

The whole Bloody Tan incident screams of atium to me. I was surprised that it wasn't confirmed in-text, so I assumed it would feature as part of the over-arching plot. For that matter, once I knew that Alloy was set specifically 300 years after Mistborn I assumed that the atium Kelsier "destroyed" would begin regenerating and play a key part.

 

It's funny, because the whole thing screamed electrum to me. Atium is gone. Its purpose was to provide a way to fight Ruin. I see no reason for Sazed to keep it around or reintroduce it. Electrum, on the other hand, lets you see your immediate future. If you burned it, then saw 9/10 of your electrum shadows suddenly spouting blood from a gunshot wound, and there was one shadow that moved the girl ever so slightly so Wax shot her and not you, you could copy the shadow's actions. You get an effect much like atium, without requiring the implausibility of atium.

 

It is interesting to me that he didn't avoid getting shot a second time. I suspect that he met the limits of electrum (or atium, I guess?), and that Wax was going to hit him no matter how he moved (now that he didn't have a hostage to worry about).

 

Really, electrum has a lot of applications. It was unfortunate that atium sidelined it during the first trilogy.

Edited November 15, 2013 by Moogle

[Gloom he/him]

I agree that Electrum is an equally plausible answer for Tans ability to dodge just the right way, but I wouldn't discount Atium completely. I don't think Sazed changed very much. I'm not sure that Tan was interested in surviving, he never looked up. He never even attempted to dodge the second shot. Tan knew too much. Far more than he would be able to discern using Electrum. He saw Sazed, he saw Marsh, and he saw Kelsier, at least he said he did. I believe that it will all tie together and that Tan was more than just a random villain.

[ProfessionalLurker she/her]

Moogle, I had completely forgotten about electrum, so I'm really glad you mentioned that! I do side with Gloom that both are likely, and that additional weirdness is afoot beyond what burning either metal would do.

[Moogle]

I don't think Sazed changed very much.

 

I'm not so sure. Sazed remade the entire world. He changed Allomancy. He knew about Rashek's rather clever hiding of the Well. It wouldn't surprise me if the Pits of Hathsin are now a few miles underground, next to Ruin's metallic lake and the Well of Ascension (plus whatever produced lerasium). I can't think of much benefit coming from leaving them around, though Sazed might have left a secret way into them just in case. If you want the god metals, you'll have to go through Sazed. Which begs the question of how Demoux is getting a supply, if he even is.

 

Bloody Tan is interesting, and I hope we learn more about him. It's entirely possible it wasn't electrum, and was just something... else. I do feel that electrum had a lot of potential that was never explored, though, and it is more likely than atium. We know there are no more Atium Mistings, after all.

[Shardlet he/him]

While it is conceivable that the pits are still active but are simply inaccessible, it seems more likely in view of the following WoB that the pits are at the very least not active.

 

Quote

ZCHANCE (15 OCTOBER 2008)
I'm surprised no one else has asked but does this new world have atium? If atium was the body of Ruin then it would seem when Sazed took up Ruin's power he would have reabsorbed all of the atium. New atium then would be bits of Sazed's new powers and weaken him with each newly formed bead. It would seem then that if atium exists it would be much rarer, and mean that Sazed would not be able to control this process.

I guess I am trying to understand why he would want to allow any atium to make its way into the hands of people or rather out of his control?

BRANDON SANDERSON (16 OCTOBER 2008)
It's theoretically possible for atium to appear in the future, but right now Sazed has no plans to release any of it to the people. It is, effectively, now something of myth and legend.
Source

 

http://www.17thshard...mpshire-signing

 

Ok. The gemhearts/stormgems/whatever that are grown inside the beasts in Way of Kings ... is that the same as the way Atium is grown inside geodes in the Pits of Hathsin?
Brandon Sanderson

It's similar. The pits are an area where there's like a leak from the spiritual realm into the physical. That's what happens there.

 

If they were simply buried, then people would be able to mine their way down to them.  I think it is more likely that Sazed plugged the leak.
 

[Gloom he/him]

I wasn't aware that such leaks could be plugged perfectly. It always seemed a side affect of investing in a planet to me, but I lack sufficient evidence to actually make a case. Outside of War Breaker, every planet we've seen thus far has a splintered Shard on it that could be used to explain such leaks, and we don't (or at least I don't) have enough information about Endowment to make any really solid guesses about leaks. It's been speculated on, but I'm not sure we have any answers. So for the moment at least I will concede the point.

[11thorderknight]

I don't really have much to contribute regarding the supply of atium, but I do want to comment on the theory that Tan was using electrum. Specifically, that #1) electrum is a known entity in Wax's time, and therefore would be known to Wax and, even if not anticipated, then at least recognized after the fact. More importantly, #2) electrum doesn't work that way. It lets you see your own future, and lets you see the results of various decisions that you might make. In Tan's case, it would have let him see that standing still would have gotten him shot. If Wax was anticipating him dodging, it might have let him see that dodging to the left would also have gotten him shot, but dodging to the right would have been safe. But it wouldn't have shown him the trajectory of Wax's bullet like atium would have, and it would not have shown him which way to move to get Wax to hit Lessie. I really don't see any allomantic explanation for what happened other than atium use. 

[Shardlet he/him]

Good point 11th.  Although as an alternative, I seem to recall reading something recently about a feruchemical ability (may have been a compounding thing) which would enable very limited future sight (as in, a couple of seconds).

[11thorderknight]

Good point 11th.  Although as an alternative, I seem to recall reading something recently about a feruchemical ability (may have been a compounding thing) which would enable very limited future sight (as in, a couple of seconds).

Hmm - I can't think of one, but doesn't mean it couldn't exist. That would be pretty cool.

 

Also, as far as Feruchemy goes, it's possible that enough Feruchemical zinc would have let Tan do what he did - it seems to speed up thought to the point where you perceive the world in slow motion, and possibly allows you to calculate/think faster/better. Tap enough zinc, and you might be able to see Wax's finger start to pull the trigger, have some time to figure out exactly which was the gun is pointing, calculate how fast you'd have to move, etc. Not saying this is what actually happened, but it could be a possible explanation.

[Moogle]

I don't really have much to contribute regarding the supply of atium, but I do want to comment on the theory that Tan was using electrum. Specifically, that #1) electrum is a known entity in Wax's time, and therefore would be known to Wax and, even if not anticipated, then at least recognized after the fact. More importantly, #2) electrum doesn't work that way. It lets you see your own future, and lets you see the results of various decisions that you might make. In Tan's case, it would have let him see that standing still would have gotten him shot. If Wax was anticipating him dodging, it might have let him see that dodging to the left would also have gotten him shot, but dodging to the right would have been safe. But it wouldn't have shown him the trajectory of Wax's bullet like atium would have, and it would not have shown him which way to move to get Wax to hit Lessie. I really don't see any allomantic explanation for what happened other than atium use.

 

I believe quoting from the MAG falls under fair use, but if it's illegal, someone let me know.

 

Burning Electrum lets an Allomancer glimpse a few

moments in his own future, seeing actions he might take

along with their consequences. With practice an Oracle can

hone this ability to spot impending danger, such as walking

into a trap or being struck by an incoming blow. This

“ danger sense” is limited to the character’s own actions and

does not identify the source of danger or knowledge of anything

else beyond the immediate peril.

...

While burning Electrum, you see a shadowy vision of yourself one Beat in

the future, much as a character burning Atium sees shadow images of others. You

cannot see your surroundings, only yourself and the actions you might take. For

example, you might see yourself collapsing in a hail of arrows, but you wouldn’t

see the actions of those firing them, or where the archers are located.

The Narrator may require an Electrum roll if you wish to see the consequences

of a specific action (“What might happen if I go left?” rather than “What does the

future hold for me?”). The more specific the request, the higher the roll’s Difficulty.

When burning Electrum in a Conflict, you gain a number of Defense Dice in

each round equal to your Electrum rating. These dice are added the first time you

gain Defense Dice in each round (generally after you take an action, when you

choose to actively defend, or when you defend against an attack).

...

ALLOMANTIC ELECTRUM STUNTS

Instinctive Burning: You instinctively start burning Electrum in response

to threats, gaining Defense Dice from Electrum whenever you’re attacked —

even when you aren’t aware of the impending attack (e.g. when you’re ambushed

or attacked in your sleep). This grants no extra benefit if you’re attacked while

already burning Electrum.

 

 

The MAG is not official canon, but has been given a lookover from Brandon from my understanding.

 

I contend that it would have let him know how to move to get Lessie into the trajectory of the bullet. He could simply look at futures where he's spattered with blood (from Lessie) but unharmed himself. (Wax later thinks of how Tan was covered in her blood.) If he were an electrum savant, it would explain somewhat why he were crazy and felt like he wasn't in control of his own future (though I don't know why he would continue burning electrum in that case), but he could also just be normally crazy and burning electrum.

 

As to the other objection raised:

 

Electrum is not mentioned once in the entirety of Alloy. Wax doesn't think of Tan or think back on what he did besides his guilt on Lessie. This is really, really weird, considering Tan moves Lessie the exact instant Wax fires. Wax was shocked. It might have been recognized by Wax after the fact that Tan was burning electrum, but we weren't told anything about the aftermath. He could have been a registered DoubleZinc Twinborn and we wouldn't have been told.

 

I don't know for sure that electrum is what he used, I do know that Vin and Elend were in the middle of an apocalypse when they discovered it, and they found out that it countered atium and that was all they cared about. There might have been some quick attempts to use electrum to win battles, but it's just not as good as atium. I don't trust Vin to have figured out everything the metal can do. I expect it to come up at some point in the next 8 Mistborn books, if only because Nicrosil Misting + Electrum Misting ought to have a similar effect to atium + duralumin and this would help out with space travel (if we go this way do I end up dead?).

 

If Tan did what he did because he was a Zinc Ferring and had a bunch of mental speed, then it is odd that Wax did not remark on it.

 

There's also the matter of the bendalloy shipment Tan stole. Bendalloy is a Temporal metal, and it's possible that using it as a Hemalurgical spike lets you steal some sort of future-sight or something crazy like that. There's a lot of possibilities, and they're probably going to come up in Shadows of Self. The name struck me as referring to goldshadows at first, but it seems to me that electrumshadows also qualify for the name "shadows of self".

[aeromancer he/him]

Tam has an evil(er) twin. That's my theory anyway. I don't think electrum would do the job, but perhaps some of Ironeyes' atium?

[Oudeis he/him]

It's been confirmed that Tan was not an atium MIsting. Which isn't the same as saying he wasn't burning atium, but the workarounds I've been able to think of are complicated and unlikely.

[Aether he/him]

Could you provide the quote?

[Oudeis he/him]

I actually thought someone had shown me the quote in this very thread; I know it was recent and this is the only place I can recall talking about Bloody Tan recently. I've searched and come up with nothing; if I dreamt the whole thing, yay! That means I can still believe he's a Seer. I'm gonna search a bit more and see if I can get back to you, though.

[Moogle]

I actually thought someone had shown me the quote in this very thread; I know it was recent and this is the only place I can recall talking about Bloody Tan recently. I've searched and come up with nothing; if I dreamt the whole thing, yay! That means I can still believe he's a Seer. I'm gonna search a bit more and see if I can get back to you, though.

 

Just to save you some time:

ateistcanuck (14 November 2011)

Was Bloody Tan an atium misting?

Brandon Sanderson (14 November 2011)

No, he was not. Good question.

 

(source)

 

<insert obligatory comment about this being evidence for Tan being an electrum Misting here>

Edited November 29, 2013 by Moogle

[Scriptorian he/him]

Electrum is not mentioned once in the entirety of Alloy. 

Nitpicking! I don't have the book, so I can't quote it exactly, but there is a scene where Miles is bemoaning the uselessness of gold in allomancy, thinking some like : "it [gold] was far less useful than its alloy, which was in turn less useful than the prime battle metals." Not exactly a "mention", but its at least a reference, so we can assume that electrum was fairly common knowledge, I think. 

 

The reason I immediately remembered this instance is because I have dug through all the books for every reference to electrum, in an attempt to prove that it is as awesome as I theorize it to be. Along those lines, I think its completely plausible for Tan to have used a electrum to avoid getting shot. He wouldn't necessarily see that moving such would cause Lezzie to get shot instead, he just had to see that moving her would keep him alive. So its a plausible explanation, but I'm not sure that it is the explanation. 

 

pssssst electrum is awesome!