Quiver he/him Posted January 9, 2014 Report Share Posted January 9, 2014 So you discount the theory that they simply have very, very short-term destinies? Does Endowment send them back hoping Idrians will start getting the idea, and start keeping them alive long enough to do Her (yes, I assume she's female) will? Or is it simply a system that's set up, and she cannot affect it due to the unknown restrictions placed upon a Shard's power? Do people Return with certain destinies, and it's up to the people of Nalthis to realize it's a good idea (if, in fact, it is) to sacrifice in order to keep them alive long enough for these destinies to be fulfilled? Is it possible Endowment simply can't not create Returned? Ruin and Preservation were at the point that they had to follow their Intents, so perhaps Endowment has to create Returned for his/her Intent? (This may be connected to my wild hope that Endowment is a Villain forced into a good Shard, like the anti-Ruin.) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aether he/him Posted January 9, 2014 Report Share Posted January 9, 2014 Is it possible Endowment simply can't not create Returned? Ruin and Preservation were at the point that they had to follow their Intents, so perhaps Endowment has to create Returned for his/her Intent? (This may be connected to my wild hope that Endowment is a Villain forced into a good Shard, like the anti-Ruin.) I suppose it is possible, but I don't Endowment could be an "anti-Ruin". Endowment isn't inherently good, and I think that if the Shardholder was a real douche, then he'd be able to twist his Intent accordingly. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Oudeis he/him Posted January 10, 2014 Author Report Share Posted January 10, 2014 Is it possible Endowment simply can't not create Returned? Ruin and Preservation were at the point that they had to follow their Intents, so perhaps Endowment has to create Returned for his/her Intent? (This may be connected to my wild hope that Endowment is a Villain forced into a good Shard, like the anti-Ruin.) I don't buy into the "anti-ruin" thing, but the first part is largely the point I was trying to convey; though I don't know if you know how much it upsets me when people act like Intents are all that matters. It's possible that the system of Returning has begun, and she cannot simply stop it just because she wishes to, and she is somehow prevented from just showing up to people and saying, "Yo, Idrians, you should totes be giving your Breaths to the Returned. Peace!" My personal belief is that it's a matter of being a Shard, not that she "can't stop endowing". I think that Shards have rules and restrictions entirely separate from their Intents. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Swimmingly he/him Posted January 10, 2014 Report Share Posted January 10, 2014 You know, once you have unlimited power, what's the point of defying the nature of your Shard to cause harm to a world? There's no point to it, unless it facilitates you getting more power. All antagonistic behaviour is driven by something opposing you - in the absense of that, why wouldn't you be magnanimous? Unless you really like being able to strike down the puny humans at will. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DocHoliday he/him Posted January 10, 2014 Report Share Posted January 10, 2014 So you discount the theory that they simply have very, very short-term destinies? Does Endowment send them back hoping Idrians will start getting the idea, and start keeping them alive long enough to do Her (yes, I assume she's female) will? Or is it simply a system that's set up, and she cannot affect it due to the unknown restrictions placed upon a Shard's power? Do people Return with certain destinies, and it's up to the people of Nalthis to realize it's a good idea (if, in fact, it is) to sacrifice in order to keep them alive long enough for these destinies to be fulfilled? What do the Hallandren think of Idrian Returned? It's expressly stated that they see Idris as a rebel enclave inside their own borders. Do they believe that when a God Returns in Idris, the Idrian people brutally and profanely allow him (or her) to die? Or do they think that only Hallandren Returned are actual Gods, and they don't care about Idrian Returned? Discount? No. See my horse metaphor. But look at LightSong and BlushWeaver, + CalmSeer. These were goals that took years. I'd say that's probably the norm. I think WoB is that Endowment is female. The Nalthian are aware that the Returned have a purpose, that's why they have petitioners, to jog their memory. Best guess: Halandren would want the Idrian Returned, but they don't have the leverage to extradite them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pechvarry Posted January 12, 2014 Report Share Posted January 12, 2014 Hey I just wanted to pop in on my phone and mention that we have WoB stating that destinies are set in stone in the Cosmere UNLESS you can see the future. Thus, showing a soul an aspect of the current future, then Returning them (and therefor giving said Returned the chance to interact with said future) creates a new future that they can no longer say. In essence, every Returned introduces a "second chance" for Nalthis' timeline. So I would guess an "unfulfilled" Returned dies like the rest of the mortals: unaware of what could have been. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Windrunner he/him Posted January 13, 2014 Report Share Posted January 13, 2014 Hey I just wanted to pop in on my phone and mention that we have WoB stating that destinies are set in stone in the Cosmere UNLESS you can see the future. I'd like to see that quote. That seems unlikely to me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Oudeis he/him Posted January 13, 2014 Author Report Share Posted January 13, 2014 I'd like to see that quote. That seems unlikely to me. Is he referring to atium? That people are committed to the next couple of seconds of action, and that this can be predicted by a Shard? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DocHoliday he/him Posted January 14, 2014 Report Share Posted January 14, 2014 Is he referring to atium? That people are committed to the next couple of seconds of action, and that this can be predicted by a Shard? I imagine that you are correct. (Assuming this is actual WoB, I'm waiting on the quote)I also believe that BS is ####ing with us again. EVERY Shard we have seen can see the future, t some degree. Since they are for all intents and purposes God, the future is therefore never set. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Oudeis he/him Posted January 14, 2014 Author Report Share Posted January 14, 2014 I'm willing to accept that "the next few seconds" are predictable enough to be prohibitively difficult to change. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Swimmingly he/him Posted January 14, 2014 Report Share Posted January 14, 2014 I'm willing to accept that "the next few seconds" are predictable enough to be prohibitively difficult to change.Atium shadows, remember? I wonder if you could duplicate the effects of Atium through zinc compounding, creating an atium shadow by starting to respond to every movement a Seer begins to make bare milliseconds after they make it? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Oudeis he/him Posted January 14, 2014 Author Report Share Posted January 14, 2014 Presumably you mean a cloud of atium shadows, rather than merely the existence of atium shadows? And that's exactly what we're talking about, so yes, I remember. Your plan is plausible, but I wouldn't be surprised if it didn't make as many shadows. Without the allomantic pewter for physical grace or the feruchemical steel to allow your body to react as quickly as your mind, there are only so many times you can physically change your body; not to mention, your own zinc will let you respond but until he does something to give you an idea of what he will do, you only have guesses, not actual future knowledge. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pechvarry Posted January 14, 2014 Report Share Posted January 14, 2014 Sigh. I miss Phantom Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Swimmingly he/him Posted January 14, 2014 Report Share Posted January 14, 2014 (edited) Presumably you mean a cloud of atium shadows, rather than merely the existence of atium shadows? And that's exactly what we're talking about, so yes, I remember. Your plan is plausible, but I wouldn't be surprised if it didn't make as many shadows. Without the allomantic pewter for physical grace or the feruchemical steel to allow your body to react as quickly as your mind, there are only so many times you can physically change your body; not to mention, your own zinc will let you respond but until he does something to give you an idea of what he will do, you only have guesses, not actual future knowledge. The point is not to actually be successful - it's to use the seer himself as a window into the future by observing his movements at 300x mind speed and initiating a reaction. As soon as this registers for him, you watch his reaction and begin the motion to react to it. Your shadows will be less a cloud than a single shadow springing in a different direction every time he tries to react to it. Definetly frustrating.Also, who is Phantom? Edited January 14, 2014 by Swimmingly Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pechvarry Posted January 14, 2014 Report Share Posted January 14, 2014 Phantom_monstrosity used to hang around here and was notorious for always having the quote you were looking for. I've searched the site (which doesn't seem to go back to the beginning of time btw) and Theoryland to no avail. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DocHoliday he/him Posted January 15, 2014 Report Share Posted January 15, 2014 Sigh. I miss Phantom Is this because I mentioned Hobbes?? I miss his witty banter. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Claincy he/him Posted January 16, 2014 Report Share Posted January 16, 2014 Atium shadows, remember? I wonder if you could duplicate the effects of Atium through zinc compounding, creating an atium shadow by starting to respond to every movement a Seer begins to make bare milliseconds after they make it? For a more detailed discussion about exactly that: http://www.17thshard.com/forum/topic/4104-seer-vs-sparker/ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dalenthas Posted March 29, 2014 Report Share Posted March 29, 2014 Did anybody consider that Shashara's destiny was to create Nightblood? Taking the long view, Nightblood is good for the world, when properly channeled by Vasher... she could have seen some horrible fate that could only be stopped with the creation of Nightblood, or perhaps she saw that creating a Type IV was *possible* and she had to Return to try it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lightsworn Panda he/him Posted March 30, 2014 Report Share Posted March 30, 2014 Taking the long view, Nightblood is good for the world I'm not sure Nightblood is good for the world, even in Vasher's hands. Besides, what if it fell into someone else's hands, someone who was strong enough to resist the violent urges but still evil? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bartbug he/him Posted March 30, 2014 Report Share Posted March 30, 2014 Maybe Nightblood is not good for (this) world, but I can see it being awesome on Roshar. For all of his existence, he's had trouble determining what evil is. Now, he is in the position where there is a power that is almost the definition of evil. It's not quite exact, but Nightblood should have no trouble accepting it. (Of course, Nightblood and Odium are in slightly different weight categories). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lightsworn Panda he/him Posted March 30, 2014 Report Share Posted March 30, 2014 (Of course, Nightblood and Odium are in slightly different weight categories). I just realized that Odium can get Nightblood now, since they're in the same world. THAT is not going to be pretty. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mistdork she/her Posted March 30, 2014 Report Share Posted March 30, 2014 We probably won't know what her purpose was until "Nightblood" (the book). I personally take the information we have about the Many war with a grain of salt. It's possible that Shashara Returned for academic reasons related to Awakening, or perhaps she plays a very long game. She knew that Vasher wouldn't be the man Nalthis (and perhaps the Cosmere, who knows at this point) needed without what she did. It's hard to even guess why without more information and that will take awhile... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts