Why Kholins Are Surgebinders

[Confused]

So many Kholins became Knights Radiant BECAUSE THEY ALL READ THE WAY OF KINGS (or had it read to them). They all each stated the First Ideal and possibly more - and more importantly actually believed in the ideals they read. Obviously the family has problems (lots of “broken souls”), but hey, whose family doesn’t? Reading the book and saying the ideals (with meaning) in addition to having broken souls was what got them the golden ticket.

 

Shallan also read The Way of Kings at an early age, BTW. Heleran brought it to her.

 

I don’t think this is coincidence. In fact, I think Odium’s minions deliberately made sure the book was available to reintroduce Surgebinding to Roshar. Surgebinding IMO (and Nale’s) causes Desolations.

[Oudeis he/him]

...Aru? Adolin and Sadeas read it. At what point did Helaran give Shallan Way of Kings? Was it mentioned in the same scene where he gave her a sketchpad?

[Weltall]

Not sure about the 'readin the Way of Kings' idea and I'm not sure if Shallan read it but I don't think it really makes much difference. The whole point of the Oaths is that if you're going to become a Radiant, you basically figure out the words you have to say on your own (and understand the intent behind them) rather than just reciting the magic phrase. Kaladin presumably couldn't have gotten his end of book 'level up' if someone had told him the Windrunners' third Ideal at the start of the book and just said it; he had to get to the point where he understood and accepted it.

 

The strong impression I get is that the exact words themselves aren't important either but the idea behind them. If the Spren accepts that you've got the idea, you pass. Like how the Stormfather tells Dalinar that he'll accept 'those words', which said to me that even if it wasn't the exact same set of words that the last Bondsmith might have sworn, it was the same oath in spirit.

 

TLDR: I don't think that just knowing what the First Ideal is and believing in it gives you any leg up on becoming a Radiant.

 

On the Surgebinding=Desolations thing, I thought the most common theory (and maybe there's WoB on this) is that the Desolations come when the first Herald breaks under the torture they endure, which is why so much time passed between the last one and the upcoming one since Taln is the only one subject to the torture and he's, well, Taln. This makes Nale's belief kind of weird since you'd think a Herald would know what's up with the cycle. But then again, we're told they're all going a bit nuts so...

[Oudeis he/him]

What I think Confused's original point was, it's easier to decide to live life by an ideal if you know such an ideal exists. We are not simply a product of predestination and nature. We make decisions about the type of person we want to be, and decisions can be informed decisions. Yes, the Ideals have to be internalized, but they don't have to be generated from an internal source. Some people, obviously. As Lirin says, no one can follow if someone doesn't lead. But that doesn't mean that people cannot follow.

[DSC01 he/him]

So, uh... When do you think Lift read it?

[Cemci she/her]

I sincerely doubt that you need to physically read the Way of Kings in order to qualify for Surgebinder-status. Kaladin never read it, Teft told him the first oath. Anything beyond the first ideal he had to generate by himself. The pattern has been that Syl turns up at the critical point in the story and asks Kaladin the words.

 

As a street urchin, it's entirely possible that Lift at some point heard or had a discussion about the Knights Radiant with her friends (just like Kaladin did).

 

I think it's fair to assume that Dalinar and Renarin (and maybe Shallan) may be the only ones who had the book read to them or read it themselves. Shallan was presumably quite young when she said the first oath. We're told that she has read Nohadon (when she interviews for Jasnah's wardship); unless Nohadon wrote multiple books, what Nohadon work Shallan read was likely Way of Kings.

Edited October 19, 2015 by Cemci

[Oudeis he/him]

Eh. It's pointed out how few books the Davar's had. I feel like it's a stretch to assume one of them was the Way of Kings, a book in heavy disfavor. If it were heretical, that would be one thing, because then it might be something said to tempt Jasnah, but it's not heretical of Vorinism, it's scandalous for the fact that it seems to indicate Lighteyes have an obligation to help Darkeyes. Shallan doesn't seem to believe this, and has no reason to suspect Jasnah, the sister of the most powerful Lighteyed king there is, would be impressed at her subversive views that her brother is ruling incorrectly.

 

For that matter, later they are both Surgebinders and are discussing books and Radiancy. Isn't it conspicuous that they don't mention the book that Nohadon wrote as a codex for the Knights Radiant?

[Runyan Firetree]

I'm not sure if it was mentioned elsewhere that Shallan had previously read Way of Kings, but I think she told Jasnah that she had read (or was familier with) the works of Nohadon during their initial meeting/interview.

[DSC01 he/him]

Eh. It's pointed out how few books the Davar's had. I feel like it's a stretch to assume one of them was the Way of Kings, a book in heavy disfavor. If it were heretical, that would be one thing, because then it might be something said to tempt Jasnah, but it's not heretical of Vorinism, it's scandalous for the fact that it seems to indicate Lighteyes have an obligation to help Darkeyes. Shallan doesn't seem to believe this, and has no reason to suspect Jasnah, the sister of the most powerful Lighteyed king there is, would be impressed at her subversive views that her brother is ruling incorrectly.

 

For that matter, later they are both Surgebinders and are discussing books and Radiancy. Isn't it conspicuous that they don't mention the book that Nohadon wrote as a codex for the Knights Radiant?

 

Is it really in heavy disfavor? I got the impression that it was a deeply respected book that a lot of people had around, but no one really paid any attention to what it says one should do. Kinda like how someone might have Plato's Republic on their bookshelf but not be directly influenced by its ideas--if they even have the slightest notion of what those are.

[Shardbearer he/him]

I don't think the point is that you MUST have read the book to qualify as a surgebinder. Seems to me that Confused is saying that reading the book, and internalizing it's message, can give you a leg up in internalizing the Ideals. Whereas if you're like Sadeas and think it's all hogwash you probably have a lot of changing to do before you can ever internalize any of the Ideals.

 

But if you haven't read it, you can still get the ideals right through other experiences.

[Firehead13]

 

 

Shallan also read The Way of Kings at an early age, BTW. Heleran brought it to her.

 

 

 

The book Heleran brought her was one of Jasnah's early works, not The Way of Kings.

[Patrick Star]

This sucks.  I haven't gotten any radiant abilities yet, but I've read The Way of Kings at least 25 times.

 

I feel cheated.  This is even worse than not getting wings after drinking Red Bull.

[ParadoxicalZen he/him]

This sucks.  I haven't gotten any radiant abilities yet, but I've read The Way of Kings at least 25 times.

 

I feel cheated.  This is even worse than not getting wings after drinking Red Bull.

Wait...so that 'radioactive' spider, gamma bomb explosion, 'super-soldier' serum I was exposed won't give me powers?

Storms...I don't feel too good

[Eagle of the Forest Path he/him]

You must remember that Shallan's father is tied to the Ghostbloods, an organisation researching the Desolations.

Since Nohadon actually lived through a Desolation, his book should be a prime source of information for them.

I think it's plausible that it was present in the Davar library.

 

I don't think the book itself causes radiance, but it probably doesn't hurt the odds.

[Moogle]

Pattern implies Shallan has sworn the First Ideal, which would imply she got her hands on the book at some point.

[Oudeis he/him]

You must remember that Shallan's father is tied to the Ghostbloods, an organisation researching the Desolations.

Since Nohadon actually lived through a Desolation, his book should be a prime source of information for them.

I think it's plausible that it was present in the Davar library.

 

Thaaaat.... is a HUGE stretch. It was written possibly decades after the Desolation ended, and from everything we know, is a set of parables about ideals he thinks people should live by. In the Vision, Nohadon right after the Desolation thinks writing a book is an idiotic idea. Way of Kings was written when he was an old man, long after his insights into the Desolation would have faded.

 

That's kind of like saying someone researching Australia should watch Wolverine, because Hugh Jackman is from Australia, so this movie should be a prime source of information. Just because someone lived during something does not mean everything they write will be reflective of that one thing, especially when the thing they're writing has no direct correlation to that thing.

 

EDIT: Moogle, neither Teft nor Kaladin read Way of Kings. It's clearly not a prerequisite. There is no implication that she read the book just because she said the Ideal. Out of every Radiant we know of, three have read the book. It is unlikely that Ym, Kaladin, or Lift did. There's as much reason to assume Shallan never read it, as to assume she did.

Edited October 22, 2015 by Oudeis

[Moogle]

EDIT: Moogle, neither Teft nor Kaladin read Way of Kings. It's clearly not a prerequisite. There is no implication that she read the book just because she said the Ideal. Out of every Radiant we know of, three have read the book. It is unlikely that Ym, Kaladin, or Lift did. There's as much reason to assume Shallan never read it, as to assume she did.

 

"[...] I have read through the complete works of Tormas, Nashan, Niali the Just, and—of course—Nohadon.” -Shallan, interviewing with Jasnah

 

You're correct, though, my logic was very much faulty there. I knew she'd read it, and my brain just sort of short circuited when writing the post. Shallan does speak as though if every scholar should be familiar with Nohadon's works, though.

 

I do think it's more likely that someone (in the general case) who's sworn the First Ideal has read The Way of Kings (or had the book read to them) than not, but you're right that the people you list seem unlikely to have read it.

[Oudeis he/him]

Ah, thank you for the correction. I have lent the book to a friend and haven't been able to re-read the relevant passage. We now have four people on their way to Radiancy who have clearly read the book.

 

If I may be so bold, your supposition appears to rest on the premise that the exact nine words must be said, like that, in that order, for "the first ideal" to be spoken. I believe as long as someone has come to the underlying philosophy, saying something aloud that expresses this philosophy will work. I believe this is borne out by a WoB I will try to find, which suggests that while the idea behind each Windrunner Ideal is universal, Kaladin could have said similar words and still have "said the ideal". I could be mistaken, but it appears that the basis for your conclusion is that it must be exactly that phrase, said exactly that way, to 'count', and respectfully I believe what we know of Ideals runs counter to this premise.

 

EDIT: Again, I don't currently have access to the book... I believe there was a discussion recently about Kaladin and the first ideal. Did he ever actually say all those nine words, without interuption, all in that order? Even if he did, at the time, wasn't his internal monologue that he was still puzzling it out, that he didn't yet fully 'believe' the words because he didn't yet entirely understand them? I seem to recall him thinking that it clearly didn't mean, "You live, then you die," because that is obvious and not-germane. Surely we can all agree that saying an Ideal means nothing if you don't believe and accept it?

Edited October 22, 2015 by Oudeis

[Shardbearer he/him]

Oudeis is correct. You do not have to say the exact words for the Oath to work. Except for the First. That one does have to be exact, apparently.

 

Source: I can't copy and paste links on my work computer for some reason, but it's number 5 on Theoryland's WOR-Lexington, KY report.

[Oudeis he/him]

Here is the link.

 

I'm always leery of a paraphrased WoB, especially one that begins "Not completely sure on this one." Still, even vague and paraphrased, it remains WoB.

[Eagle of the Forest Path he/him]

That's kind of like saying someone researching Australia should watch Wolverine, because Hugh Jackman is from Australia, so this movie should be a prime source of information. Just because someone lived during something does not mean everything they write will be reflective of that one thing, especially when the thing they're writing has no direct correlation to that thing.

 

I think it's more like saying that someone researching communism should read Animal Farm, but that's just an opinion.

Even without direct statements about the Desolations, a Ghostblood would still be more likely to read "The Way of Kings" than "Arts and Majesty", for instance.

[Runyan Firetree]

"[...] I have read through the complete works of Tormas, Nashan, Niali the Just, and—of course—Nohadon.” -Shallan, interviewing with Jasnah

 

 

In addition to the above quote, when Shallan is investigating the Oathgate in WoR she specifically reflects on the part of TWoK where Nohadon mentions he walked to Urithiru instead of the direct method.