Do full feruchemists still exist?

[DeadFencer]

(Putting this in here for possible very minor Shadow of Self spoilers)

We know ferrings exist because the allomantic portion of spiritwebs is the same as the feruchemical part, causing the need for less feruchemical power. But what about the Terris who didn't have any exposure to allomancy? They should still be full feruchemists, since feruchemy is a dominant trait. Also, we haven't seen any non-Twinborn ferrings. Would they exist, as feruchemy didn't interact with allomancy in their spiritwebs?

[Moogle]

We don't know for sure, but it's fair to assume any pure-Terris bloodlines can still result in Full Feruchemists.

 

I had a theory that Wax's grandmother is one. Her bloodline is seemingly quite pure.

[Oudeis he/him]

We saw the three Brutes, and Idashwy. Presumably, at least one of those four was a non-allomantic Ferring.

[DeadFencer]

Idashwy could have been a misting. Hemalurgy would have only let Bleeder take one of her powers if she was. But yeah I forgot about those Brutes. Maybe they just specialized in pewter tapping? (I'm hoping you have to be Twinborn if a ferring, but doubt it)

[natc]

Well, if they had non-terris ancestors from the early days of the Originators, it wouldn't be surprising, and while the allomantic blood can potentially fade after that to near non-functional levels in 3 centuries of purer breeding, they probably would've left their mark by disrupting the feruchemical genes and splitting them. That possibly can't recover with time.

[Firehead13]

Idashwy could have been a misting. Hemalurgy would have only let Bleeder take one of her powers if she was. But yeah I forgot about those Brutes. Maybe they just specialized in pewter tapping? (I'm hoping you have to be Twinborn if a ferring, but doubt it)

I'm fairly certain that Hemalurgy can steal both allomantic powers and feruchemical ones independently.

 

Regardless, I could have sworn that somewhere in SoM they made a mention of there being no more memory-storing feruchemists, which would mean no more full feruchemists. We know that all full feruchemists were trained as keepers, and that by the end of the first trilogy that sazid was the only keeper left, so it would make sense that no more full-bloods remain.

[Oudeis he/him]

Except that, even if all of Tindwyl's actual feruchemist children perished, she had scores of kids, and surely some of them were carriers even if they weren't actual feruchemists, and there must've been other carriers of the gene within the general pool, or else other feruchemists wouldn't have been born at the time of the Final Ascension. For the same reason they survived the Lord Ruler's Ascension, it's possible they survived the Catacendre; unless, of course, the genetics, weakened by the first culling, just weren't strong enough. Regardless, it's still a plausible option, and fits with the mention in Shadows of Self that there weren't any living Keepers at the time of the Catacendre, and certainly none who remembered Old Terris, explaining why the ones who did remember, wrote it all down.

[Weltall]

Regardless, I could have sworn that somewhere in SoM they made a mention of there being no more memory-storing feruchemists, which would mean no more full feruchemists.

 

Even if no Archivists survived the Final Ascension (save Sazed who was busy being God) that doesn't necessarily mean there weren't any full Feruchemists among the survviors, or people who carried the necessary sDNA for full Feruchemists to be born afterwards. It just means that there wasn't anyone around in the immediate aftermath with Copperminds containing knowledge of Terris so they had to record their history the old-fashioned way. As for whether any exist in the Alloy of Law era, who knows? I don't think we have a WoB that none exist so if there's a population with sufficiently little contact with non-Terris bloodlines maybe it's possible. We know that there were still Mistborn after ~1000 years and they started out with a really small population (all of ten) so...

 

Randomly, does Harmony do revelations? Because you'd think that a modern-day Copper Ferring could learn a lot if they asked Harmony about the extensive contents of his own copperminds.

Edited October 20, 2015 by Weltall

[DeadFencer]

We know that all full feruchemists were trained as keepers, and that by the end of the first trilogy that sazid was the only keeper left, so it would make sense that no more full-bloods remain.

I feel like I read the MAG says feruchemistry is a dominant trait, so some of the children alive at the end of the first trilogy had to have been at least carrying the "genes" for full feruchemists.

[Firehead13]

Even if no Archivists survived the Final Ascension (save Sazed who was busy being God) that doesn't necessarily mean there weren't any full Feruchemists among the survviors, or people who carried the necessary sDNA for full Feruchemists to be born afterwards. It just means that there wasn't anyone around in the immediate aftermath with Copperminds containing knowledge of Terris so they had to record their history the old-fashioned way. As for whether any exist in the Alloy of Law era, who knows? I don't think we have a WoB that none exist so if there's a population with sufficiently little contact with non-Terris bloodlines maybe it's possible. We know that there were still Mistborn after ~1000 years and they started out with a really small population (all of ten) so...

 

Randomly, does Harmony do revelations? Because you'd think that a modern-day Copper Ferring could learn a lot if they asked Harmony about the extensive contents of his own copperminds.

A few things:

 

1) Totally right about the DNA. It's possible that FF (full feruchemist) is a recessive trait and that there are still some wandering around that we just haven't heard of yet, though it seems like they'd be a big deal in this society - on par with a mistborn. Also possible that a small population could have spread out, though with mistborn it was spread on purpose and with FFs it was intentionally bred out of them, so they may face more challenges.

2) Those terrace people who were FF trained as keepers, and we know that none of them survived from the original trilogy (again, save sazid). Question though - did all of the terrace people survive? I know there weren't many of them left, but they all managed to make it through the catacandre right? Could be a problem if they lost a large chunk of their already small population.

3) What does WoB stand for? I've applied the title "words of Brandon" in my head but don't actually know

4) From what we've seen of his interactions with Wax, it certainly doesn't seem like it. He definitely seems to work on a need-to-know basis and sends help when he can/thinks it best. However, no confirmation.

[Firehead13]

I feel like I read the MAG says feruchemistry is a dominant trait, so some of the children alive at the end of the first trilogy had to have been at least carrying the "genes" for full feruchemists.

What is MAG? While I've read most of Sanderson's works several times over I'm new to the forums. Anywho, my understanding of genetics is that feruchemy can't be a dominant trait. If it was, then there wouldn't be any need for a selective breeding program to go on for several hundred years. Assuming that TLR was smart about it and kept lineages, the moment any terrace showed himself/herself as a FF then every blood relation he had would have been wiped out.

[Voidus]

What is MAG? While I've read most of Sanderson's works several times over I'm new to the forums. Anywho, my understanding of genetics is that feruchemy can't be a dominant trait. If it was, then there wouldn't be any need for a selective breeding program to go on for several hundred years. Assuming that TLR was smart about it and kept lineages, the moment any terrace showed himself/herself as a FF then every blood relation he had would have been wiped out.

Mistborn Adventure Game, it's at best semi-canonical.

[Weltall]

MAG is short for Mistborn Adventure Game. I'm not terribly familiar with the ins and outs of it; I have the core book but haven't read all of it and I don't have the Terris and Alloy of Law supplements.

 

3) What does WoB stand for? I've applied the title "words of Brandon" in my head but don't actually know

4) From what we've seen of his interactions with Wax, it certainly doesn't seem like it. He definitely seems to work on a need-to-know basis and sends help when he can/thinks it best. However, no confirmation.

 

3. You've got it, Word(s) of Brandon. I think it might have been derived from the site TVTropes using 'Word of God' as shorthand for 'things the creators tell us but which aren't in the original material'. Or it could have been devised independently, dunno. I'm new too.

 

4. I'm just wondering in this case because the whole point of his copperminds to begin with was to preserve the knowledge and pass it on. You'd think giving someone knowledge of the history of the world as he used to know it (not even taking into account anything he's learned after becoming a Shard) might fall under a permissible level of interference, especially if it might nudge people in the direction he's trying to get them to go. I can just see him now: "Hear me oh follower, I will teach you about a culture that once lived in this time and place... and by the way this is the secret of their agricultural success, hint hint."

[Firehead13]

Gotcha. And if that's what you're talking about then I don't believe Harmony does. He put down his advice in the Words of Founding that explained electricity and farming and such, but he seems really miffed that they haven't invented radios yet, so I would guess that he put as much as he could into the words then tried to stay hands off except in a few extreme cases (Wax)

[DeadFencer]

Remember that TLR wanted to keep feruchemists around for hemalurgical purposes. The goal of the breeding program was truly to harvest powers, not get rid of them.

[natc]

. . . No, pretty sure feruchemists with allomancy was literally the last thing he wanted when he started out . . .

[Tarion]

. . . No, pretty sure feruchemists with allomancy was literally the last thing he wanted when he started out . . .

Actually, Allomancers with at least a little Feruchemy are definitely something he wanted.

Inquisitors have Feruchemical gold, after all. 

 

Now I don't know whether the Lord Ruler was deliberately keeping Keepers around to replenish his Inquisitor numbers, or whether he kept that secret to himself, and used the limited number of Feruchemical gold spikes as a kind of population control (much like Koloss and their swords), forcing Inquisitors to re-use their brethren's spikes.  

[natc]

Actually, Allomancers with at least a little Feruchemy are definitely something he wanted.

Inquisitors have Feruchemical gold, after all.

Now I don't know whether the Lord Ruler was deliberately keeping Keepers around to replenish his Inquisitor numbers, or whether he kept that secret to himself, and used the limited number of Feruchemical gold spikes as a kind of population control (much like Koloss and their swords), forcing Inquisitors to re-use their brethren's spikes.

I said when he started out. He made all these Mistwraiths from them and all. His own people. Total waste of feruchemy.

He started cashing in later, as we see. I blame Ruin's constant whispering for that.

[11thorderknight]

Pretty sure there was WoB that Full Feruchemists still exist. From what we know, it was the mingling of regular-population genes with the Terris bloodlines that created Ferrings. So, those of the Terris that maintained pure bloodlines should still have FFs among them. I'm sure they're incredibly rare, and they probably hide the full extent of their abilities from the outside world, but I'm sure they still exist. 

 

As an aside, a Feruchemist with access to a Nicromind would be a total badass - store something useless, like weight or heat, or easily replenished, like food/water, transfer it to pure Investiture with a Nicromind, then tap it to power something really valuable like health or speed. 

[baby he/him]

I believe a user tweeted a question to Brandon asking if a full-feruchemist and misting or full mistborn and ferring was possible and Brandon said yes. I'll try and find the pic but it's on twitter.

 

EDIT:Typos

EDIT 2:   https://twitter.com/BrandSanderson/status/639570875935645696    - there's the link if interested. Now he said they're possible, but we don't know if they exist(yet).

Edited October 24, 2015 by Once-ler

[Elbereth she/her]

I'm fairly certain that Hemalurgy can steal both allomantic powers and feruchemical ones independently.

Regardless, I could have sworn that somewhere in SoM they made a mention of there being no more memory-storing feruchemists...

Hemalurgy can steal both Allomantic and Feruchemical powers, yes, but you can only steal one power from a person, just like you could only take one power from a Mistborn, because Hemalurgy (almost) always kills you in the process.

Does anyone have a quote saying Archivists no longer exist? Because I must have missed that.

..We know that there were still Mistborn after ~1000 years and they started out with a really small population (all of ten) so...

There were Mistborn after a thousand years, yes, but there was no Feruchemy interfering with their sDNA, so that doesn't apply all that much.

4. I'm just wondering in this case because the whole point of his copperminds to begin with was to preserve the knowledge and pass it on. You'd think giving someone knowledge of the history of the world as he used to know it (not even taking into account anything he's learned after becoming a Shard) might fall under a permissible level of interference, especially if it might nudge people in the direction he's trying to get them to go. I can just see him now: "Hear me oh follower, I will teach you about a culture that once lived in this time and place... and by the way this is the secret of their agricultural success, hint hint."

He did. He put everything that was in his copperminds into the Words of Founding.

EDIT:

Actually, Allomancers with at least a little Feruchemy are definitely something he wanted.

Inquisitors have Feruchemical gold, after all.

Now I don't know whether the Lord Ruler was deliberately keeping Keepers around to replenish his Inquisitor numbers, or whether he kept that secret to himself, and used the limited number of Feruchemical gold spikes as a kind of population control (much like Koloss and their swords), forcing Inquisitors to re-use their brethren's spikes.

He reused the Feruchemical spikes. If they found a Feruchemist, they would of course spike him, but by this point they were mostly reused. Here's the WoB:

SPORKIFY (18 OCTOBER 2008)

Before, Inquisitors had supernatural healing. How did they get the Feruchemists for the spike? Were the keepers not so hidden after all?

BRANDON SANDERSON (20 OCTOBER 2008)

The keepers have been hunted for years. Much like skaa Allomancers, they were often captured and taken by the Inquisitors. It didn't happen nearly as often, of course. Two things to remember, however: Not all Inquisitors had the same spikes, and spikes CAN be reused with much less effectiveness. The longer they are outside of a body, the more their power degrades.

EDIT 2: edited for brevity.

Edited October 25, 2015 by Elbereth (Limelleth)