Shattered Plains = Urithiru

[Shardlet he/him]

I think that since Kabsal does have a hidden allegiance, as there would be LOTS of topics he could research as an ardent,but I think he picked that one because it would benefit the Ghost bloods somehow. On a completely different note that has to do with the Shattering of Honor, what exactly IS the Shattering of a Shard. Is it just that the host for the Shard dies, or is it that the Shard itself was split into pieces and scattered? Also, do we have any word on when the high storms started coming? They don't seem like an exactly natural phenomenon, and I wonder if they have some connection with the Splintering of Honor and all that. I doubt that they've been there forever.

 

What Arondell said, mostly.  Splintering and the death of a person holding a shard are not necessarily the same thing.  So far, we have little to indicate what is done to splinter a shard.  We also have little to indicate that the death of the person holding the shard has any negative impact on the shard itself.  We do have a quote where Brandon says that it is a good thing for Scadrial that

Kelsier was around to take up Preservations power when Leras died.

 But, I think that is more because the power will ultimately act strictly according to its intent without a guiding intelligence in a similar manner as how Nightblood has a difficult time actually properly deciding what is evil and what is not.  As to the highstorms, you can find some thoughts on that in the ongoing discussion in a different thread starting at about this post (note: that thread is in the Steelhunt subforum).

Edited December 12, 2013 by Shardlet

[Terra of Roshar she/her]

I'm pretty sure death of the shardholder doesn't mean that the Shard is splintered. In the letter from the epigraphs in WoK, it says "Aona and Skai are both dead, and that which they held has been Splintered." Why would the author specify that the Shards had been splintered if that was an inherent part of what happens when the holder is killed? 

 

Also, on the subject of whether the Shattered Plains were shattered when Honor was splintered and there not being similar destruction on Sel, could the Chasm that messed up the magic in Elantris have been caused by Devotion or Dominion's shattering? Sorry this is kind of late, but I thought it had been overlooked.

[hoser he/him]

It is my understanding that a shard shatters after it's holder is killed.  To be more precise when a holder is killed the shard is dropped.  It is in my opinion unclear if further effort is required to shatter a shard or if the shard will eventually shatter on its own if it is not taken up within a certain time period.  The shattering itself is fairly self explanatory.  The power falls apart into small pieces that manifest in various ways.  These "splinters" usually manifest some aspect of the shards original intent.

Based on the following answer (from here), I do not believe that Shards splinter automatically. It seems to even be difficult to make them do so.

 

QUESTION:

The next question I have is does Odium have to recover after Shattering a Shard?

BRANDON:

It is a difficult process that is very taxing.

[WeiryWriter he/him]

...could the Chasm that messed up the magic in Elantris have been caused by Devotion or Dominion's shattering?

 

That is a theory that has been brought up before, unfortunately it can be pretty definitively disproved.  The Reod occurred centuries after the Shards were Splintered.  There were no Seons when Odium was on Sel killing and Splintering Devotion and Dominion.  That isn't to say the two events are not related.  There is a theory that the Chasm formed do to a build up of spiritual energy that is a direct consequence of large amounts of shardic energy being uncontrolled.

Edited December 12, 2013 by WeiryWriter

[Guest Alaxel]

What Arondell said, mostly. Splintering and the death of a person holding a shard are not necessarily the same thing. So far, we have little to indicate what is done to splinter a shard. We also have little to indicate that the death of the person holding the shard has any negative impact on the shard itself.

It's a personal speculation of mine that, in order for a Shard to splinter, it must do something to seriously contradict its Intent, and that to Splinter a Shard you must 'checkmate' it into making that anti-Intent decision. Perhaps making them choose the lesser of two evils, or presenting them with a sort of 'Shardic Paradox"*, where the lesser evil splinters them and the greater evil is bad enough that the Shard will choose to Splinter. You would have to be extremely devious to engineer events well enough to force a Shard in to that kind of a situation.

Example: (Spoiler for length/slight irrelevency.)

In Issac Asimov's Robots Series, some of the early robots could be destroyed if they were presented with a sufficently distressing paradox. The Laws of Robotics are as follows(I'm reciting/paraphrasing from memory, so forgive me if wording is off.) :

1) A Robot may never harm a human or, through inaction, allow a human to be harmed.

2) A Robot must protect its own existence except in such cases where it would contradict the First Law.

3) A Robot must obey all human orders unless such orders would contradict the First and Second Laws.

I like these laws because they losely simulate a Shard's Intent. Now here is the actual example of how a Robot's Positronic Brain would get fried, which is what I am comparing with Splintering. A Robot sees two men, each holding a gun to their heads and promising to kill themselves if the Robot does not kill the other man. The Robot is positioned in such a way that it cannot simply disarm the men. The First Law dictates that the Robot perform an action to prevent the humans from coming to harm. Such an action contradicts the First Law. Inaction double contradicts the First Law. There are no actions that do not contradict the first law, so the Robot has a 'nervous breakdown' trying to resolve the issue.

Such a 'checkmate' would be very difficult to do, though I think Honor would be especially vulnerable to it because, sometimes, self sacrafice/martyrdom is the most, or only, honorable action. I think it would be much harder to Splinter, say, Endowment.

*ATTN: Kurkistan, as unoffical Custiodian and Record-Keeper of Boasts, Claims, and Wagers, I would like to formally coin the term, "Shardic Paradox" in case it becomes a thing.

Edited December 13, 2013 by Alaxel

[Oudeis he/him]

I am referring to the fact that Highprince's Hatham wife spends her time studying the Dawncities. This may be because she has nothing better to do, or maybe because her study was requested by Hatham or by somebody else working with Hatham - like the Ghostbloods (or maybe some other party).

I was just trying to put up the idea that Hatham is part of the Ghostbloods.

I guess I'm not sure why we think there's a connection between the dawncities and the ghostbloods. Our only connection is something Kabsal brings up briefly, and from his interaction with Jasnah I got the impression that it's a common (and fairly simple) means of converting people to Vorinism. Did he say it was a particular study of his? Otherwise, borrowing the plate and practicing for half an hour could have granted him his expertise.

[Shardlet he/him]

The imprint in WoK talking about the four basic cities and their symmetry is signed by "The Scholar Kabsal."  This, I think is the basis for much of the thought, I think.  Personally I think it is tenuous.  It at least as easily could be explained as a pet topic of study.

Edited December 13, 2013 by Shardlet

[marianmi]

I guess I'm not sure why we think there's a connection between the dawncities and the ghostbloods. Our only connection is something Kabsal brings up briefly, and from his interaction with Jasnah I got the impression that it's a common (and fairly simple) means of converting people to Vorinism. Did he say it was a particular study of his? Otherwise, borrowing the plate and practicing for half an hour could have granted him his expertise.

 

You can think of many reasons why Ghostbloods would want to study the dawncities... 1) what;s with the shape?; 2) find a cache of shards; 3) find Urithiru; 4) find fabrials ...

 

 

Such a 'checkmate' would be very difficult to do, though I think Honor would be especially vulnerable to it because, sometimes, self sacrafice/martyrdom is the most, or only, honorable action. I think it would be much harder to Splinter, say, Endowment.

 

*ATTN: Kurkistan, as unoffical Custiodian and Record-Keeper of Boasts, Claims, and Wagers, I would like to formally coin the term, "Shardic Paradox" in case it becomes a thing.

 

I think this is a good theory.

PS: You can splinter Endowment easily by deceiving it to endow a lot of Breaths (e.g. make people have many lots of babies for few generations) / Divine Breaths, until it's too weak, then make a force attack. 

Edited December 15, 2013 by marianmi

[Arondell]

Based on the following answer (from here), I do not believe that Shards splinter automatically. It seems to even be difficult to make them do so.

 

QUESTION:

The next question I have is does Odium have to recover after Shattering a Shard?

BRANDON:

It is a difficult process that is very taxing.

Some time back Mr. Sanderson was apparently asked why Kelsier acted as a place holder for Vin with Preservation.  Apparently he gave a vague response that something "bad" would have happened had he not done so.  So we can now say with confidence that whatever the bad thing was it wasn't splintering from inattention.  Though that still leaves me wondering what the bad thing that Kelsier prevented from happening was.

[dj26792 he/him]

Just because its difficult for Odium to force a shard to shatter doesn't mean it won't fray apart over time without a guiding influence.  I think it would take a long time for it to happen without Odium's influence but it makes sense to me that the shard lacking the holder would fall apart over time, and in a situation like where scadrial where the shards were so finely balanced that lack of active resistance coupled with a slight weakening in preservation could have let Ruin completely destroy the world.

 

And that can be true with out the fraying happening quick enough to allow Odium to leave without shattering the shard the hard way and exerting himself as we've been told he does.

[Oudeis he/him]

The imprint in WoK talking about the four basic cities and their symmetry is signed by "The Scholar Kabsal." This, I think is the basis for much of the thought, I think. Personally I think it is tenuous. It at least as easily could be explained as a pet topic of study.

Thank you! That is a better connection than i'd realized. Very interesting.

[Shardlet he/him]

Some time back Mr. Sanderson was apparently asked why Kelsier acted as a place holder for Vin with Preservation.  Apparently he gave a vague response that something "bad" would have happened had he not done so.  So we can now say with confidence that whatever the bad thing was it wasn't splintering from inattention.  Though that still leaves me wondering what the bad thing that Kelsier prevented from happening was.

 

Personally I think the bad thing that would have happened can be likened to Nightblood from Warbreaker.  

Nightblood was awakened with the command "destroy evil" or "kill evil" (I don't recall which).  The twist was that Nightblood lacks the capacity to actually determine what was meant by 'evil'.  So, Nightblood wants to kill essentially everyone.

 Consider that a shard is coupled with a governing intent.  If left without a conciousness to direct, shape, and interpret that intent, I think the shard would act in a similar manner as Nightblood and act with impunity.  Imagine unadulterated Preservation->Stasis.  This would be nearly as bad as unadulterated Ruin.

Edited December 16, 2013 by Shardlet

[Aether he/him]

Consider that a shard is coupled with a governing intent.  If left without a conciousness to direct, shape, and interpret that intent, I think the shard would act in a similar manner as Nightblood and act with impunity.  Imagine unadulterated Preservation->Stasis.  This would be nearly as bad as unadulterated Ruin.

What he said.

.

It could also be that it would have left Ruin completely without opposition and thereby able to destroy the world even faster.

.

Kelsier does make me wonder though: how is he able to stick around (in the Cognitive Realm)? Can others do the same? If so, why don't they; or maybe they do?

[WeiryWriter he/him]

Kelsier does make me wonder though: how is he able to stick around (in the Cognitive Realm)? Can others do the same? If so, why don't they; or maybe they do?

 

Kelsier is able to stick around in the Cognitive Realm because he has a strong tie to the Physical Realm (vaguely alluded to here, although that is more of a general statement).  I'm of the opinion that Kelsier's "tie" is the Church of the Survivor, being worshipped as a god is what is keeping him from going into the light.

[Aether he/him]

Kelsier is able to stick around in the Cognitive Realm because he has a strong tie to the Physical Realm (vaguely alluded to here, although that is more of a general statement).  I'm of the opinion that Kelsier's "tie" is the Church of the Survivor, being worshipped as a god is what is keeping him from going into the light.

I was not aware of this. I suppose it does make sense realmatically as well, though we might have to summon "the Avatar of Forms 'n' Stuff, Kurkistan the Great Catquisitor" to be absolutely sure.

 

*prepares the occult relics and what-not* "I summon Thee, Great Unholiness. May Thy most infernal Holy Dictate be swift and concise, for mere mortals cannot withstand the raw power of Thy word!" *scurries away and hides in a corner*

 

EDIT: OK, I confess, 'twas but a PM.

Edited December 16, 2013 by Aether

[Kurkistan he/him]

*Sees PM*

 

'Sup.

 

I'm generally on board with that interpretation of Kelsier's continued presence. I don't think it overlaps specifically with any Formic theory because he's a singular entity rather than a cultural abstraction, though.

[Aether he/him]

I'm generally on board with that interpretation of Kelsier's continued presence. I don't think it overlaps specifically with any Formic theory because he's a singular entity rather than a cultural abstraction, though.

Can you really call him a singular entity any longer, though? His demi-godlike status has become a cultural abstraction.

[Kurkistan he/him]

No, he's still pretty unique under my modeling. The whole point with Forms is that there's nothing central to them, no defining "kernel" with definite qualities that must necessarily persist. Even if Kelsier is being affected by how others perceive/worship him, he's still Kelsier in the core of it all.

[Aether he/him]

No, he's still pretty unique under my modeling. The whole point with Forms is that there's nothing central to them, no defining "kernel" with definite qualities that must necessarily persist. Even if Kelsier is being affected by how others perceive/worship him, he's still Kelsier in the core of it all.

He might still hold on to his identity, but his nature might change. For lo and behold! I call upon the Word!

 

*Urk* My powers of google fail me yet again. The quote I am referring to is the one about Rock's Spren-sight and how collective beliefs might do "funky things" or something.

[Rade]

Point #1: Alright, that is a really weird/boss/I don't know cat profile picture you have Kurkistan. Just saying.

Point #2: I know this is off topic of what you guys have been talking about with Kelsier, but I thought I would field this out there. Rereading some of the earlier notes, Jasnah said Urithiru is not in the Shattered Plains, and somebody else pointed out that it might have been in the past. What if Urithiru doesn't move around, but it WAS in the Shattered Plains before something hit it from the sky, like a meteorite? That could explain quite a lot, although I personally think that Urithiru moving around is waaaaay cooler of an idea. 

Point #3:REALLY off topic again, and I bet somebody else mentioned it, the reocurring theme with Shardpools seems to be...well...pools. What if the lake in Mistborn was a Shard Pool? (Yes, I know this is horribly off topic, but I saw it in the link somewhere about the questions Brandon answered way back when, and one of them was about Kelsier and another was about the lake, and it got me thinking.)

Edited December 16, 2013 by Rade

[Moogle]

Point #2: I know this is off topic of what you guys have been talking about with Kelsier, but I thought I would field this out there. Rereading some of the earlier notes, Jasnah said Urithiru is not in the Shattered Plains, and somebody else pointed out that it might have been in the past. What if Urithiru doesn't move around, but it WAS in the Shattered Plains before something hit it from the sky, like a meteorite? That could explain quite a lot, although I personally think that Urithiru moving around is waaaaay cooler of an idea. 

Point #3:REALLY off topic again, and I bet somebody else mentioned it, the reocurring theme with Shardpools seems to be...well...pools. What if the lake in Mistborn was a Shard Pool? (Yes, I know this is horribly off topic, but I saw it in the link somewhere about the questions Brandon answered way back when, and one of them was about Kelsier and another was about the lake, and it got me thinking.)

 

2) Jasnah says it wasn't in The Shattered Plains because she found a quote saying that people wished it could be placed in Alethkar, but that was not done, and it was instead built westward of Alethkar. The Shattered Plains are southeast of Alethkar. If it moved, it might have ended up there, but this seems unlikely. And if this were the case, why ask for it to be placed somewhere other than Alethkar? It could just move on over there on vacation every once in a while. It seems to me that the implications of having it 'placed' are that it was fixed in one place permanently.

 

3) The metallic lake Alendi and co. passed by was, I think, Ruin's Shardpool, but then Rashek reformed the world and made the Pits of Hathsin. The Pits had Ruin's Shardpool as little pools of liquid metal along the bottom. I may be wrong on the lake, but the Pits definitely had Ruin's Shardpool after TLR used the Well.

Edited December 16, 2013 by Moogle

[Shardlet he/him]

2) Jasnah says it wasn't in The Shattered Plains because she found a quote saying that people wished it could be placed in Alethkar, but that was not done, and it was instead built westward of Alethkar. The Shattered Plains are southeast of Alethkar. If it moved, it might have ended up there, but this seems unlikely. And if this were the case, why ask for it to be placed somewhere other than Alethkar? It could just move on over there on vacation every once in a while. It seems to me that the implications of having it 'placed' are that it was fixed in one place permanently.

 

3) The metallic lake Alendi and co. passed by was, I think, Ruin's Shardpool, but then Rashek reformed the world and made the Pits of Hathsin. The Pits had Ruin's Shardpool as little pools of liquid metal along the bottom. I may be wrong on the lake, but the Pits definitely had Ruin's Shardpool after TLR used the Well.

 

2) Since Jasnah's response was so firm, I suspect that she had more evidence and information than we are in possession of.

 

3) I'm not sure whether or not the lake is canon.

[Oudeis he/him]

2) Since Jasnah's response was so firm, I suspect that she had more evidence and information than we are in possession of.

 

 

 

Yes, her own notes on the "west, closest to honor" discuss how suspect the translation is. I don't think she'd be so firm if that was all she had.

[Kurkistan he/him]

Thought: I'm sure someone's mentioned this before, but it occurs to me that Jasnah's issues with the translation might be the use of "honor" as a noun. We know it's referring to the Shard, most likely, but for Jasnah it would just seem like a weird translation.
 
Here's the full epigraph, by the way. It's been garbled a bit by the discussion:
 

“Though many wished Urithiru to be built in Alethela, it was obvious that it could not be. And so it was that we asked for it to be placed westward, in the place nearest to Honor.”
—Perhaps the oldest surviving original source mentioning the city, requoted in The Vavibrar, line 1804. What I wouldn’t give for a way to translate the Dawnchant.

 

So it's not exactly 100% that Jasnah is questioning the translation, actually. Still, I think it reasonable for Jasnah to be confused over what "Honor" is.

[Shardlet he/him]

Good thought, Kurk.