Long Game 15: ...The Shards Themselves...

[STINK he/him]

I think Ada is innocent btw, unless he is trying to meta-game me in which case he is doing a great job. I won't say why but some other people playing this game should know why... and if they don't then good for me and him!

Edited November 4, 2015 by IrulelikeSTINK

[little wilson she/her]

 “While it’s ideal for player’s to follow their current alignment / win conditions, we do not want to force player’s into playing a certain way.

 

I want to be clear that none of that post had anything to do with the current game. There was a reason I put the disclaimer of speaking as mod!Wilson rather than player!Wilson at the beginning. That post is from a mod. Not from a player. Were I the impartial mod for this game, I would've said the exact same thing.

 

In regards to your comments about discussion. I didn't contribute to the discussion that had been taking place at that point in time because I'd already made my views on that known in 15a. I think the Hemalurgists and no other role should contact the HI. I know the game is slightly different about this, but my views are unchanged.

 

My reasons:

The eliminators likely still have a Forger. They did last time, and the role is nerfed so it's even more likely that they have one. What's to stop them from Forging the Hemalurgists to a different role to get the HI to subvert? So while the HI would like Elantrians to protect the Hemalurgists, if the Hemalurgist is forged into something else, that protection isn't going to stop that forgery. They'll still lose the Hemalurgist (albeit temporarily) and if that Hemalurgist is the last one, the HI will subvert and there's nothing that can be done about it.

 

There are a lot of things that can be done that we cannot prevent without our own forgers forging those roles and hoping to win over the eliminator forger, while at the same time, not knowing who they're stamping and what role they're costing the village for 2 cycles. I'm not going to go into all the things the eliminators could do to make the HI subvert regardless of our preparations because this is the thread and I don't particularly like giving eliminators strategy ideas.

 

Suffice it to say that I agree the Hemalurgists should contact the HI. No one else should. I also agree with Kas and everyone else who's been promoting role secrecy. I cannot even describe how many role reveals I tend to get in open communication games. Of course, I tend to also be one of the ones revealing, and while sometimes that's gone very well for me in the past, other times, it really hasn't. Unless you have a good reason to trust someone, you shouldn't be giving your role to them.

 

And if you're wondering why I didn't say any of this yesterday, it's because I was kind of a bit busy yesterday, and I figured that, since my views were virtually the same, that there wasn't much point in parroting them. I guess I thought wrong. Also, I'm going to be busy most of the remainder of this week, but I'll try to keep up as much as I can and respond when I can. For all of you watching the lurkers, you'll see my name regularly, yes. That's because I keep a tab open on my work PC and regularly refresh when I've got a couple seconds of downtime while a page is loading for work. I also split screen my desktop so I can work/read the thread at the same time. Then there's the times when I check on my phone, but I don't like typing long posts on my phone, so I tend to avoid posting on my phone as well. Being able to read does not equate to being able to post. But I will post when I can (I also tend to make time to post when I'm specifically called out, so there's that too ).

[Clanky he/him]

Clanky

Clanky: Provides clarification to Alvron regarding Forgers and Hemalurgists. Responds to Cow’s OOC. Asks Wyrm a question: Answer - if a person with a forged role dies their original is revealed in the write-up and it enters the pool of possibly forgable roles if applicable.

 

 

I know that the original role is added to the list forgers get but I don't see anything about what is revealed in the write-up.

 

"Players scan as their Forged Role, but if they die while Forged, their original Role is added to the list."

 

Where do you see the part about he write-up?

[Amanuensis he/him]

@Wilson: I appreciate you taking the time to respond despite your busy schedule. I am just generally more suspicious of players who seem to avoid posting in large amounts, whether quantitative or qualitative. Given that the only way we can obtain information during a day turn (especially on day 1) is through conversation, anyone who gives me reason to believe they are neglecting participating makes me uncomfortable.

 

@Kipper: I believe I had said this to you at the beginning of MR9 shortly before the skaa killed me. If you have reason to suspect me this early in the game it is because I am good. If anybody thinks I would involve myself this heavily on day 1 as a traitor you're wrong. I would have kept up with appearances certainly, but not be this open with my thoughts / opinions, let alone be this willing to challenge others so quickly. As you can see it is an extremely poor strategy for an eliminator given I am currently tied for the lead with the most votes.

 

@Clanky: That was actually the quote from Wyrm I was referencing, however it seems my memory added an extra part of it than I was aware. Still, my interpretation of it is that in order for their actual role to appear in the list of things that can be Forged the next night I would guess that it'd have to be common knowledge too. However we will just have to wait until Wyrm confirms or denies this, and I hope that with it being mentioned again it will be answered soon.

 

 

EDITED SPELLING ERRORS, ADDED LINES IN ITALIC

Edited November 4, 2015 by Adavantos

[Clanky he/him]

 

@Kipper: I believe I had said this to you at the beginning of MR9 shortly before the skaa killed me. If you have reason to suspect me this early in the game it is because I am good. If anybody thinks I would involve myself this heavily on day 1 as a traitor you're wrong. I would have kept up with appearances certainly, but not be this open with my thoughts / opinions, let alone be this willing to challenge others so quickly. As you can see it is an extremely poor strategy for an eliminator given I am currently tied for the lead with the most votes.

 

 

See the problem with the defence of "Why would an eliminator do that" is exactly why an eliminator would do that. The whole point of being an eliminator is not to act like an eliminator. You won't find eliminators saying "Oh, I can't do that! An eliminator would never do that!" Also everyone can share opinions and thoughts. You don't have to be telling the truth about who you suspect and even an eliminator can have strategic ideas about the game. Also about you being currently tied for leading in votes, I don't think that is something that would worry you. Firstly there is still over a day left in the turn and secondly you are a good enough player to sway those votes away from you.

[STINK he/him]

So, is it possible that someone could make a list of what is currently being discussed/ might be worthy of discussion?

 

This is also an edit to say that it's really annoying when people edit their stuff. I've already viewed it!

Edited November 4, 2015 by IrulelikeSTINK

[Amanuensis he/him]

See the problem with the defence of "Why would an eliminator do that" is exactly why an eliminator would do that. The whole point of being an eliminator is not to act like an eliminator. You won't find eliminators saying "Oh, I can't do that! An eliminator would never do that!" Also everyone can share opinions and thoughts. You don't have to be telling the truth about who you suspect and even an eliminator can have strategic ideas about the game. Also about you being currently tied for leading in votes, I don't think that is something that would worry you. Firstly there is still over a day left in the turn and secondly you are a good enough player to sway those votes away from you.

 

Using it as a defense is not my entire intention. If I was trying to defend myself I would be bring up several different points that could actually be considered legitimate cases in my favor, at least in comparison to the statement I directed at Kipper. I am not worried about being lynched for the same reason that I am not worried about being killed tonight. I don't expect to live long this game, and I have never been afraid of being a martyr. My entire goal this turn is to get as many people talking as possible and hopefully uncover something of use before I'm taken out, one way or the other.

 

EDITED FOR STINK

 

• If Hemalurgists should contact the HI or not; ways to prevent this knowledge from getting into to the traitors. 
• Potential role interactions / strategies that could benefit the crew that can be mentioned without endangering the plans or the crew.
• Any reads you may have on a player, whether it's purely instinct or analytical
• Who we are lynching, because it is not a question of if. We are lynching someone today even if it has to be me

Edited November 4, 2015 by Adavantos

[Elithanathile he/him]

If you guys are really that suspicious thanks to my vote on Alvron, would the votes on me be removed if I retracted said vote? I believe in the first day lynch, and want to place my vote on someone at least this time around, and while it is preferable that they be suspicious, anyone is an option. Right now, I understand that there is no real reason to have my vote on Alvron, but I don't really have a reason to change it. If me retracting my vote will keep me alive, I'll do it, but as of right now, while there is no reason to vote for Alvron, there is also no reason to retract my vote on Alvron. He is currently under no danger, and my vote is not affecting anything. If my vote is such a big deal, I will remove it to save my life, but I don't see why I need to.

 

Also, you guys keep on bringing up my joke. You guys accuse me of wasting my time and whatnot, and of distracting people from analysis, but I was seriously responding to a post, and took an extra 30 seconds to point out something that I found amusing. I don't understand how me pointing out something funny puts me under suspicion, when Alvron's joke clears him of suspicion, while mine did not involve lynching someone. Also, I did not realize that Alvron's joke was in fact a joke when it was first posted, and was not aware that the game end conditions had been altered by the time I made my first post, accusing him. So yeah. That's on me.

[STINK he/him]

Thanks for the list Ada!

 

I think that Hemalurgists should contact the HI and we should be told how many there are, so that if we get down to 1 then the forgers know that they need to forge or people can start to get defensive and super-analysey etc.

 

Not sure on the second one, I'm rubbish at getting game mechanics to work for me, but I can point out errors!

 

I don't have any reads on any player yet, as I don't really do them so much as everyone else. I do enjoy reading posts though!

 

For the lynch, I guess we can go for Mailliw73? I don't remember seeing anything much from him and apparently he has a reputation of something according to previous games. I'll change it if you all want it to change.

[Kasimir he/him]

Several things to add:
 
1. Understood, Adavantos. I agree that we're just offering advisories to the Hemalurgists; I just wanted to make sure that we didn't get too bogged down in discussion on this one point because the last thing we need is this issue being blown out of proportion when we still have a little over 24 hours left, and it would be unfortunate if we all stalled here.
 
2. All Hemalurgists, this is hopefully the last I will say on the issue. While you are hopefully considering your options, I want to warn to wait for Word of Wyrm and to factor that into consideration. I've spoken to Wyrm and he's considering allowing the HI to play under the assumption they will eventually swap to Team Eliminator; he'll get back to us later. If that is the case, I would shift towards agreeing more with Adavantos. So please check on what Wyrm says!
 
3. Remember Wyrm's a troll? I take back my words on trusting Deathclutch. Consider small, non-zero probability that there are no loyal Hemalurgists to begin with. (He did consider that during Playthrough 1, so...)
 
4. I don't want to get mired too much in the lynch-or-no-lynch issue because as people have rightly pointed out, it's a distraction. But I do want to remind everyone that there's a very good reason why we ought to be proactive and aggressive on this: we're on a timer. Let us assume that we do in fact have Loyal Hemalurgists, and that Deathclutch is temporarily on our side.
 
Model it however you like; unless Deathclutch is going to desist from scanning roles and leave it all up to our Kandra (if we have any), a major issue we're going to face is that as the timer (likely; it's possible we're exceedingly lucky and none of our Hemalurgists get hit at all) runs out, or if Deathclutch chooses to play to his long-term win condition (if Wyrm permits this), then the more rounds we take to root out the Traitors, the more information he gleans. And that information on roles--which is exactly what Traitors would like, as it enables them to target strategically--all goes over to them, the moment our last Hemalurgist falls. While it would not exactly be game-shattering, I believe it would be a significant setback for us, and would prefer to try to take down a few of the Traitors before they get access to that information.
 
5. Last, while I have no fixed opinion yet on most players (partly because I'm very paranoid, and I've even relaxed my certainty on Deathclutch, now that I've been reminded of the Zero-Loyal-Hemalurgist possibility), I'd like to ask Clanky what his opinions are. I've noticed that you've spent a few posts poking at Adavantos's points, but you've always seemed to shy from driving the nail home: do you, or do you not think he is suspicious? (Or, assuming you begin, as I do, by considering everyone suspicious--do you then think there is something especially problematic about him that demand attention?)

 

Edit: Araris, I would like to hear more from you as well; Stink, I would like to know how "he has a reputation of something" pushes you to vote for Maili.

Edited November 4, 2015 by Kasimir

[STINK he/him]

Because I don't remember seeing him posting anything, and I'm not sure what his reputation is but he has one so he should post.

[Amanuensis he/him]

@Stink: There are two reasons why I think Mail should not be lynched today. One has nothing to do with this game, but MR9. Mail was killed N1, therefore I think it unfair not to give him a chance to partake in this game, regardless of his alignment. I make it my personal policy to try and spread out who gets killed at what stages of these games so that everyone has equal opportunity of having fun. Second, I believe Mail is also one of those players who tends to use PMs more often than the thread itself to gather information, whether good or evil. I am suspicious of him for earlier posts, but not nearly as much as some other players, let alone willing to see him get strung up quite yet,

[Clanky he/him]

5. Last, while I have no fixed opinion yet on most players (partly because I'm very paranoid, and I've even relaxed my certainty on Deathclutch, now that I've been reminded of the Zero-Loyal-Hemalurgist possibility), I'd like to ask Clanky what his opinions are. I've noticed that you've spent a few posts poking at Adavantos's points, but you've always seemed to shy from driving the nail home: do you, or do you not think he is suspicious? (Or, assuming you begin, as I do, by considering everyone suspicious--do you then think there is something especially problematic about him that demand attention?)

 

 

I am not suspicious of Adavantos*, I was just pointing out the problem with people saying "Eliminators would never do what I just did". That is just a general thing that just bothers me a bit. It isn't enough for me to want to kill him since he is doing a lot to promote discussion. 

 

I don't have the time at the moment to put the analysis in for a vote as I am going to a lab and I will be in their till potentially 10 tonight (8 hours from now). When I get back from that I will probably be putting down a vote.

 

*Beyond the fact that everyone is suspicious as you said.

[STINK he/him]

Oh yeah he died in MRGamma. Mailliw.

 

That's me out :/

[Wyrmhero he/him]

So, two points that need clarifying:

 

Forging

• The list of Forgeable Roles will be released to the Forgers at the end of the day. It will not be shown in the write-up or anything, only Forgers will know what Roles can be Forged.
• If a player dies, their original Role is added to this list.
• You will not not know whether a player was Forged when they die.
• A Role once Forged is removed from the game.

 

The HI

• It is impossible to accurately judge whether a player is following their objectives in a game like this, particularly if they are not discussing it with other people. Is Deathclutch checking X's Role out because he thinks X is an Eliminator, or for fuel for when they become an Eliminator? Deathclutch is lynching someone who has claimed to be/he has found out is a Hemalurgist. Is that because he wants to become a Traitor quicker, or because he thinks they're a Traitor Hemalurgist? Hard to say unless I go and ask each time he votes.
• As such, I cannot 'police' the HI without dictating 'this is what you do next'. This is not what I want to end up doing for obvious reasons.
• The HI has two possible objectives: Win as a Villager, or win as an Eliminator. Assuming the HI started as a Villager, then their objective is to kill all the Traitors. If/When they are an Eliminator, their objective is to help the Traitors outnumber the crew.
• I am of the opinion that the HI (or indeed any convertible Role) should aim for their current objective. Consider them to be running off of a modified version of Asimov's Zeroth Law: The HI must protect the crew as much as they can. They should not be aiming to be converted. After all, the entire game could go by without them being converted.
• However, and this is where it gets a little grey, I have few problems with them making plans for if they are converted. The HI is always meant to keep the crew guessing which side they're on, after all. They are not meant to be a traditional 'Confirmed' Villager.
• The HI is a very sensitive Role, I am aware of this. But we have a good community here, and I would hope that people do not consider 'winning' or 'being an Eliminator' to be an optimal objective. The objective should always be to have fun playing, and to help other people have fun playing as well.
• The HI is a role which I am trusting to be played fairly and in a not-unpleasant manner. This goes double for the fact that it is unkillable, and thus the fact that the player cannot be removed from the game by normal means.
• People have very different ideas of what is 'fair' and what is 'not-unpleasant'. I understand this. As always, people are free to come to me or one of the impartial mods (whichever of Gamma/Meta it is, though admittedly they're both rather busy) about any concerns they may have over how a player is playing the game.

Edited November 4, 2015 by Wyrmhero

[DeathClutch19 he/him]

In the event that a crew member did not see my earlier posts or did not understand my earlier posts, I will be playing to my current win condition every day. I will not be giving you all the names of the Traitors if I turn Traitor. I will not be giving Traitors the names of the Loyal Hemalurgists in order to turn Traitor.
Doing otherwise would be..... Illogical.

 

END OF LINE.

Edited November 4, 2015 by DeathClutch19

[Kipper]

I'm somewhat interested as to what changed your view from the first game so completely, Adavantos

LG15a:

No matter the end result, the HI contributes to the progression of the game therefore preventing it from stagnating. While it may be unpopular because of the potential of Araris turning evil, I am going to invest my trust in him (at least until he says or does something that might actually suggest him turning) as he is the only player that we all know is good right now. I don’t know him as a player right now, I just know how I would play that role if I were him (which is to do everything in my power to ensure the majority wins, including preventing myself from being turned) so I will assume that he will be doing the same until I have reason to believe otherwise.

Emphasis mine.

Also, Wyrm, about voting? Sorry to bother.

[Wyrmhero he/him]

Also, Wyrm, about voting? Sorry to bother.

 

Whoops, apologies.

 

I would really like it if you did green previous votes, as it makes things easier for me, but I am going to be going through the thread taking all red votes in chronological order, overwriting any previous ones with each subsequent vote. So you don't have to, but it'd be good if you did.

[Amanuensis he/him]

Two things that changed. First, the impermanence of forges, making it that much easier for the HI to turn by the end of this game. Second, my alignment. It was more beneficial to me as a traitor to align to a process of thought that was supportive, as it would foster good opinions of me in other people. Additionally I had nothing to fear of the traitors targeting me as I was among them, and while I was saying in thread that the village should trust the HI I had every intention of taking out the Hemalurgists as soon as possible to get him on my side. This game however there are 30 players apart from myself and Clutch that are not confirmed on my side, so I have to be infinitely more cautious and aggressive.

Edited November 4, 2015 by Adavantos

[Elithanathile he/him]

Something I would like to just point out is that we have heard nothing from PK this game, which is odd, because last game is posted in the first hour or two, and it's been over 24 hours now with nothing. He might have a reason for it, but I'm going to toss a poke vote his way, which will hopefully give rise to post, and will get people off of my back for voting Alvron.

 

Alvron

Paranoid King

[Creccio he/him]

 

 

Creccio

Joke-votes Alvron. Retracts. Page 3: Emphasizes that he is contributing. Does not provide any information relevant to this turn, but predicts that an experienced player will be killed by next cycle and some players would have gathered information through PMs that may be of use. Does not believe that we will have much to work with for the first few days.

 

 

 

EDITED OUT SPELLING / GRAMMAR ERRORS

 

 

What? 

 

I did joke vote. More than one person did. I retracted within 10 mins i believe because it was just that, a joke.

 

I did not emphasize i was contributing, i even put it with * as implying i was doing it. After that I said "As for ACTUAL contribution"

 

Tell me, what do you believe that will happen? Do you not believe that you, as an experienced player, are a threat to the traitors and they want you dead? I was just assuming that it is what will happen. It IS what usually happens; be it fearkills or what have you, i believe one of the experience players will die, just based on the fact that the traitors dont want to deal with them. If you want to believe other wise, do so and lets talk about it, but I firmly believe someone "experienced" is dying.

 

I believe in the use of PMs as a way to gather information, in PMs people are just more open and can be more willing to cooperate instead of revealing their thoughts to 30+ people. Out of 32 players, at least someone will have something useful for their end, if they share it or not is a their thing.

 

On the point of the AMOUNT of information,  it just makes sense. The more checks, votes, posts, pms and discussion there is, there is just exponentially more information. Day 2 at this exact time we will have incredibly more information than we do now; if it is public or not, thats something else. Day 3 at this exact time there will be even MORE information. It just compounds.

 

I believe we can agree to disagree on points and im more than willing to discuss with anyone my ideas.

 

If you have more questions please let me know, let us work together

 

Also, i turned in my project and 1 of the exams, one exam left. Come at me math.

[RippleGylf she/her]

Gylf was surprised at the amount of conversation surrounding the HI. She believed Hellscythe's robotic assurance that he would remain trustworthy, at least for the moment. However, she saw another flaw in Kipper's relatively foolproof plan. What if a traitor falsely informed the HI that they were a hemalurgist, when in reality, they were not? It would certainly mean that the entire ship would be misinformed and perhaps trust the HI for too long. She didn't want to be a critic; Kipper's plan could work fairly well. However, she didn't want to risk a potential oversight.

[The Cow he/him]

I don't have a grasp of this site's terminology yet, so if I start using jargon which makes no sense, let me know and I'll put it into other words.
 

As am I. Emotions are incomprehensible. Humans like to refer to it as a "gut" feeling.
 
END OF LINE.

 To clarify, the vote you lodged was in earnest, yes?
 

That's a fair question, Arraenae. Here's my answer: I signed up to play this game because I thought it would be fun, and so a bit of mischief by posting pictures appealed to me, particularly in response to Wyrm.

I also signed up because I liked the setting: I mean, spaceship, right? Awesome!

So really, the main thing is that I don't regard the only function of posting to be always directed towards putting down analysis to help everyone find the Traitors. Sure, that's our goal, and I'm always ready to do my bit, but I don't see why that precludes having fun, whether with a bit of mild trolling/mischief or with RP, really. (And I am having fun RPing! Even if everyone else is really sick of The Adventures of Sonder The Doormat! )
 
To be fair, I will grant it's a bit of a switch from Srs!Bsns!Kas, so a further question might be asked about why I'm not being as aggressive as I usually am. Well, I've been trying to get a bit of distance and perspective when playing SE to endorse the principle [Maxifun]: Maximising the most fun for the most number of people! To go with that, I have been trying to change my playstyle since I got called out for excessive aggression in LG12 Being at the receiving end of it isn't fun, and that just increases my desire to play in a way that is more friendly, ethically okay and encourages fun. [No worries, if this experiment doesn't work out, 'No Prisoners'!Kas is coming right back ]
 
-
 
I'm just going to echo what Adavantos said about sharing roles. Cease and desist! (I have not yet formulated my position on the Hemalurgists visiting the HI, and I suspect I will need to go through the arguments from the first round of this game in order to better weigh the issues.) This one goes to everyone else who's not the special case of a Hemalurgist approaching the HI. Don't do it! It doesn't matter if you're a regular or you have a role, we don't want to make it easier for an Eliminator to figure out who they ought to be taking down and who they oughtn't, alright?
 
This doesn't just cover in-thread, it covers PM safety. Practice safe PM use, people! Role reveals even over PMs can come back to haunt you later.
 
tldr; loose lips sink ships, plus, everyone on this ship has a part to play, if you have no role, then it's all the more important you vote, your vote is your voice and your power, etcetera.

Alas, at this point, I am going to have to do a poke vote. Sonder, what do you have to say for yourself?
 
More seriously: Orlok, I'd like to know your views on what's going on so far. Oh, and Maili--so, I noticed you commented you shared Wilson's views on Bridge Boy. What about on Alv? My personal take is that I think it a bit of a stretch to read heavy suspicion into Alv's joke (to be fair, I did spend my entry into this game messing around myself), but for obvious reasons (Urbain Paranoia!), I shan't bring myself to trust anyone just yet. Except Deathclutch, since at this point, he's the only confirmed Loyalist.
 
I do have a final thought though. Is there anything wrong with asking the HI now to reveal the number of Hemalurgists, if Plan Reveal H. to HI is a go? My immediate impression is that it really doesn't hurt giving us a countdown as to when Clutch is gonna turn on us. (After all, we just have to check the dead for the number of dead Hemalurgists!) On the other hand, it's not super helpful to the Eliminators if they don't know who the Hemalurgists are (and obviously, that's information that should be kept secret.) Because the moment our last Hemalurgist dies, Clutch gets added to their doc anyway. So I don't actually see all of us knowing the number of Hemalurgists as something that helps the Eliminators--or at least it helps us far more than it helps them, since it's information they would have eventually received anyway.
 
I should also add that while I trust the HI for now, I'm against trying to make the HI a nexus of information, for the obvious reason that if he goes over, so does all that delicious intel. But my impression is that that much has also been previously said.

The PM safety bit here feels redundant to me. That sort of talk, nailing down what should be mere convention, feels like filler grasping for easy town-cred. Sort of a scumtell in my eyes. The words aren't wrong exactly, but the needlessness coupled with the jumble appears to be showboating. Have there been issues of games being lost due to scum-sided PM conspiring in the past?
 

So here's what I think, given the changes in the rules.
 
Nothing against Deathclutch, but I do not think that he should be trusted with the identities of the Hemalurgists. Without the ability to permanently forge replacements, it is far more likely this game than the last that he will turn. I didn't agree it was a guarantee then, but unless fate works very much in our favor this game, I'm convinced it is inevitable. He could easily lie to us by saying there's more than there actually are, and over the course of 12 cycles or so direct the traitors hit all but one to make it look like random luck while feeding them all the information he has, guaranteeing his change over and their end victory even if his win condition remains on our side for most of the game. I'm not saying he would do it, but what do we really gain by having a count down, which only he would know is accurate or not? The fact of the matter is it doesn't help us. Once the HI turns we can't do anything about him. He's immune to death and all actions. He is part of the game, good or bad. We need to focus on other aspects of the game.
 
@Everyone: No matter what your role is, I think an overall good strategy for this game is to keep it an absolute secret from anyone. Do not reveal it until the HI or Kandra approach you via PM with an accurate deduction. And just because a player approaches you in PM claiming to be a Kandra who scanned you good, it could easily be a traitor - who knows everyone's alignments - just trying to get you to trust them and give your role up. If someone PMs you saying they're the Kandra and you're good, tell them to scan your role themselves and message you the next night. Whether or not they get it right, deny it. If they are a Kandra they will know the truth anyway. If they are a traitor they will think they just guessed wrong and will probably act very erratically after that. Hopefully me just mentioning this will keep them from even attempting it, but still. Be wary. Trust no one until you have a legitimate reason to.
 
Also, @Kandra, I should have to say this but just in case, make sure you test a player's alignments before their role. Never reveal yourself to a player before you know they are good for sure. If you end up finding a Loyalist Elantrian, tell him both at once and ask him to protect you. At the very least it'll buy you an extra cycle to weed out the traitors. I would also recommend using a Loyalist Crewmember as an intermediary, that way if you find a traitor you can announce it to the crew without implicating yourself.
 
One more thing. I believe it was Lopen who referenced the numbers and alignments of LG15a's Hemalurgists. What I want to point out is that this game is not the last one. If you try to use knowledge of LG15a to determine role/alignment distribution this one, you are doomed for failure. If you think any GM, especially Wyrm, isn't going to use that thought process against us by changing things up completely, you're wrong. Until we have evidence in this game that suggests anything like that, don't assume. I'm sure you've all heard the saying of what assuming makes out of u and me.
 
That is all, for now.

Same issue with this quote as the above quote except to an even greater extent. "Don't reveal if you're an investigative". More showboating, attempting to 'coordinate' the townies, getting that sweet, sweet obv town read. That is the @everyone and @kanra sections. Again, I agree with the points being made (especially the last paragraph) but these things are like wordless contracts.
 
As for the last paragraph, as a person who has created and hosted countless games, believe me: a GM never reveals their secrets. The list was 99 rerolled between the two hostings of this game. Meta is worthless here as the set isn't part of the setup. If the set were a part of a setup it would work 100%, but that isn't the case.
 
Minor alienation of our 3rd party in the first paragraph. Dubious.
 

Just wanted to say that I do not like all this talk of the HI turning Traitor before his time. Kipper deems this a VERY BAD IDEA. Our win conditions are what they are for a reason, and I think it should (if it's not already) be against Fair Play Rules to turn on your own team because winning with another team might be easier. When you have a certain alignment, you are to stick to that alignment, and do your best for your team to win. Just because the possibility exists that your alignment might change DOES NOT MEAN that you can simply say, "Ah, storm it. Imma just pick my team now."
 
"But I could just make my alignment switch faster." Is it helpful to the village (your current team) to reveal information to the Eliminators that will result in them winning sooner? Then no, don't reveal the Hemalurgists to the Eliminators.
 
I will assume that the HI is good until proven otherwise, because that is at the core of the game. How did it get to a point where we even considered voluntarily switching Alignments an acceptable idea? If I did that, what would you guys say? I'll bet you would be mad. Oh, he gamethrew, etc. Well so is the HI, if he voluntarily helps out the Eliminators without an intention to trap them, manipulate them, etc. Gamethrowing. Now, let's all play for our win conditions, and be good boys and girls.
 
So: I think that the Hemalurgists contacting the HI and the HI revealing the quantity of Hemalurgists in thread is a good idea. Although if he does this, he needs to be all in (i.e. don't hold back a "personal" Hemalurgist or anything), because if he is not, he will be prematurely lynched. And I really don't want to lose our only confirmed good role. Again, let me repeat this. Just because doing this might hurt you later, as an Eliminator, that is not a good reason to not do this. Your win condition is for the village, and it is quite obviously helpful to the village to know when you turn.

 As Kipper says here, though the HI has a "choice" or an influence over their alignment, it isn't a proper choice. The HI gains nothing from choosing a side now, so by talking about how the HI could potentially screw us over, we are alienating a potential asset. Anyone doing this is scummy in my eyes.
 
That being said, revealing the number of Hemalugists seems like a bad idea.
 

Personally I do not see that as gamethrowing as his alignment changing is an aspect of his role. Is it gamethrowing in Town of Salem when an Amnesiac remembers he's a Consigliere to help the Mafia win when there's a Bodyguard in the graveyard and the village is mostly alive? I personally do not think so. In a perfect world I would agree with you 100%. But this is not a perfect world. Though an HI remaining loyal to the crew is certainly honorable, the very foundation of elimination games is deceit.
 
I'm not saying that we should condemn the HI. It's not like we even could if we wanted to. I'm saying there is no benefit to the Hemalurgists contacting the HI. Do you know how easy it would be to sit on the main page of this website during a night turn and continuously refresh the member list, watching for any player who enters a personal conversation around the same time that Deathclutch leaves them, and vice versa? Chances are an eliminator will do just this and take notes, targeting whoever has the most consistent pattern. Then bam, we're that much closer to losing him to their side, whether or not he betrayed us.
 
If someone can give me a good reason why a countdown would help us, please do. But I fail to see the point. It doesn't matter if he's good or if he's evil. Deathclutch is untouchable. All he is good for is a vote and scanning roles, which isn't a unique ability anymore nor one that is particularly useful to the crew. Even if we know he is evil it's not like we can kill him for it. If we want we can turn this into a mayor game and have all the useful roles contact him so he can tell the Elantrians who to protect, the Kandra who to scan, the Forgers who to forge and the Mistborn who to kill. But who here really wants that? Who thinks that would be fun, let alone fair? Unless we do this, I don't see him being confirmed as useful to us in any way other than he's one less loyalist for us to suspect / analyze / accidently lynch.
 
 
EDITED IN ONE LAST SENTENCE

The ToS analogy is a non-sequitur. We should not be alienating the HI since they are a resource. Not an ally, a resource. We can trust them for now, that much is a given. Later, it will get iffy. We cannot put faith into this ally, but we CAN put in trust. 
 

As you may know I have had no powers up until the point where I died. In both LG15a and LG15b my tiny human body was Loyal but powerless. I did not know that the captain sent you your actions.
 
EDIT: If I were to immediately choose to side with the Eliminators from round 1(Which I am not) that would be playing against my win condition. If I was the kind of player to play against my win condition what is to stop me from telling you all the Traitors the second I turn and get put into the Traitor Doc.
 
Edit B: Me pming means nothing. Do not think anything of it. I may pm moderators, forgers, no roles, elantrians, hemalurgists, even traitors! I also almost always have 2-3 tabs of 17th shard open at all times. What this does to people trying to see if I'm pming? Indiscernable.
 
END OF LINE.

The bit about turning on the traitors is misrepresentation. You cannot turn on the Traitors because if you betray the Traitors, you have zero chance of winning.

Adavantos is my current largest scum read at the moment.

[DeathClutch19 he/him]

 To clarify, the vote you lodged was in earnest, yes?

 

Sure.

 

The bit about turning on the traitors is misrepresentation. You cannot turn on the Traitors because if you betray the Traitors, you have zero chance of winning.

 

I can turn on the traitors. If I went against my current win conditions at the time of my alignment change. Which is what the crew is suggesting. That I can go against my current win condition. I used that analogy to show them how absurd their suspicions are.

 

If the Traitors do end up winning this game there is a 91.663% chance I will be on the side of the Traitors when that happens. However if the Crew is to win there is only a 63.812% chance I will be on the side of the Crew when that happens. That number goes down the more I try to help the Traitors. There is no point in going against my current win condition. If the Traitors are going to win I am most likely going to win anyways so there is no point in helping them now.

 

I am a Computer. Do not question my computations.

END OF LINE.

Edited November 4, 2015 by DeathClutch19

[Paranoid King he/him]

Something I would like to just point out is that we have heard nothing from PK this game, which is odd, because last game is posted in the first hour or two, and it's been over 24 hours now with nothing. He might have a reason for it, but I'm going to toss a poke vote his way, which will hopefully give rise to post, and will get people off of my back for voting Alvron.

 

Alvron

Paranoid King

My apologies. I didn't think about this game much yesterday and today I had a lot of work to do.

 I personally feel that Alvron's "joke" vote could be an eliminator tactic to put us at ease and make us not suspect him. And so far, it seems to have worked. I'm not taking Alvron off my suspect list, but I'm not thinking that he's an eliminator unless he gives me surer evidence with which to convict him.

 As for the subject of the HI, I feel that while he is our guaranteed ally for now, we should not trust him too much. At the the same time, what use is a definitely loyal crewmember unless we trust him? As a compromise, I suggest that we tell our alignment suspicions to the HI, as that would be of no use to team evil anyway, but the HI may be able to draw connections between the points of evidence. And if team evil throws in some red herring suspicions? All the better, because that is more data the HI can use to draw a pattern.