the Three Lashings - For every Order?

[18th Shard he/him]

I was looking at known ways Surgebinders use their Surges. Kaladin and Szeth: use the Basic, Full, and Reverse Lashings. Jasnah and Shallan Soulcast. Lift increases/decreases Friction, Grows things, and uses Regrowth. Then I thought, what if all the orders have three lashings: one from Surge 1, one from Surge 2, and bonus Lashing 3 that's only used by their order. The Basic Lashing is the gravity Lashing, the Full Lashing is the Atmospheric pressure, Lift's sliding/climbing is the Friction Lashing, growing seeds is a use of the Growth Lashing, and Soulcasting is the highly diversified Lashing of Transformation. The Reverse Lashing is the Windrunner Order Lashing , and Regrowth is the Edgedancer(?) Order Lashing. Perhaps Lightweaving (making Illusions) is the Lightweaver Order Lashing. This would put the number of Lashings at 20.

 

The Surge Lashings directly affect the Surge (Basic lashing affects gravity, full lashing affects atmospheric pressure, Soulcasting is the Transfromation, Sliding/Climbing directly affects friction, Growing Seeds directly involves growth, etc.). The other lashings are less directly affecting their surges (how is Regrowth directly affecting Growth or Friction? It heals, not grows something, and friction...)

[Natans he/him]

Well, for what we already know is hard draw a conclusion but you could be correct.

 

All orders must have their peculiarities but from that to say that every order have 3 "powers"  I don't know enough to full agree.

 

For other hand Jasnah have her normal touch here to soulcast power, and her "Ray of death" soulcast power, that I believe are a unique power of the Elsecallers Order  transformation + transportation combo  (and Soulcast something at distance fit with the name of the order to me) if you add to that another power directly related with transportation maybe you have 3 powers and maybe you are unto something.

 

Same thing with Lift she have Friction control, plant(and maybe other things growth) and regrowth.

 

Ym only showed Regrowth and no sign of normal growth so here we have a indication that normal growth(plant growth) maybe are a combo of friction+re-growth, what would be odd.

 

If Shallan have two diferent powers to add with her soulcast maybe you are correct.

 

And another thing that could fit your theory is that Sandeson said that if you looked at a angle would exist 10 powers and at other angle would be 30. The math could be 10 normal surge power + 10 order unique power and 10 something else like odium power, parshendi form and fabrial science. I don't really know.

 

This 30 number always maked my read spin because I don't know if Fabrials and Parshendi forms are in the 10 magic system or in the 30 magic system count  or even if they are something else.

[Bloodfalcon he/him]

These forums are too big, so don't be discouraged when people tell you this, but this has been discussed several times and there are several different theories on it. Some people believe exactly what you proposed, while others think that maybe some of the Ideals will grant additional uses of the Surges. We'll see. 

All I know is that Windrunners have three according to Szeth, and Edgedancers have 3 (it would seem) according to Wyndle. So it sounds like that is the case, but that isn't running on a lot of information and of course if you have ever read any long epic fantasy series, you know that all of those rules are subject to change as your legendary heroes defy all laws. 

[hoser he/him]

Nicely done! Upvote!

 

This puts the information we have together in a very interesting way. 

 

The two orders we know have 3 described abilities, and each order is supposed to have something special to it. 

 

I struggle with some aspects of the theory

1. In each case, two of the uses seem exclusively relating to one aspect.  It seems possible that the basic and reverse lashings will be shared between the windrunners and skybreakers.  Ym and Lift's orders could both do growth and regrowth.
2. There are hints that the windrunner special ability may involve stormriding. 
3. Kaladin has done some things (pressure wave?, voice amplification) that don't fit in the three lashings.  We have seen only 1 book.  I think Brandon will give orders more abilities.

Edited December 17, 2013 by hoser

[Shardlet he/him]

Didn't Wyndle say that regrowth was a specialized form of growth?

 

Edit: not quite. He is not clear on it:

 

 

 

“Your bond to me grants two primary classes of ability,” Wyndle said. “The first, manipulation of friction, you’ve already—don’t yawn at me!—discovered. We have been using that well for many weeks now, and it is time for you to learn the second, the power of Growth. You aren’t ready for what was once known as Regrowth, the healing of—”

Edited December 17, 2013 by Shardlet

[cem he/him]

Nicely done! Upvote!

 

This puts the information we have together in a very interesting way. 

 

The two orders we know have 3 described abilities, and each order is supposed to have something special to it. 

 

I struggle with some aspects of the theory

• In each case, two of the uses seem exclusively relating to one aspect.  It seems possible that the basic and reverse lashings will be shared between the windrunners and skybreakers.  Ym and Lift's orders could both do growth and regrowth.
• There are hints that the windrunner special ability may involve stormriding. 
• Kaladin has done some things (pressure wave?, voice amplification) that don't fit in the three lashings.  We have seen only 1 book.  I think Brandon will give orders more abilities.

1. I really, really don't think what Ym did was Regrowth. It was most likely plain Growth, because the kid's foot was scabbed over(is this the correct word?). This implies to me what Ym did just sped up body's regular healing.

 

When Lift and the Lady Knight from Starfalls do Regrowth, the wounds healed like they'd never existed. Also IIRC, Regrowth restored Dalinar's energy as well.

[hoser he/him]

I, as always, know nothing. 

1. I really, really don't think what Ym did was Regrowth. It was most likely plain Growth, because the kid's foot was scabbed over(is this the correct word?). This implies to me what Ym did just sped up body's regular healing.

 

When Lift and the Lady Knight from Starfalls do Regrowth, the wounds healed like they'd never existed. Also IIRC, Regrowth restored Dalinar's energy as well.

Reading the following excerpts leaves me with none of the certainty you seem to feel:

 

Ym undid the rag and found a nasty cut on the bottom of that foot. It was already infected, crawling with rotspren in the shape of tiny moats of red. Ym hesitated.

... The infection had spread up the leg.

.... The medicine wasn’t going to be enough, not with the boy unable to stay off his feet. Lying in bed for weeks to heal, constantly applying expensive medication. ...

The boy should probably have been laid out in bed, feverish, but every urchin knew to chew [rich]bark to stay alert and awake longer than they should.

... The rotspren fled from the wound. When he removed his hand, the cut had scabbed over, the color returning to normal, signs of infection gone.

 

The infection, which has spread up into the leg, is instantly banished.  It is not clear to me that growth actually repairs things, rather than accelerating growth processes.   Your point could certainly be correct, as the scabbing is different, but it could also be an effect of the amount of time the boy was injured (cognitive realm blah, blah, blah). 

 

In any case, my point is that, whatever Ym did with that child, the order with the same surges as Ym may well have been able to do both Growth and Regrowth. 

[Shardlet he/him]

I concur with hoser.  The healing of the spreading infection indicates to me regrowth rather than growth. 

Edited December 17, 2013 by Shardlet

[Moogle]

The Surges are fundamental forces of reality. It would be very odd if you could only use them in one way. Kaladin uses Pressure to bind things, and potentially Pressure to create shockwaves. He also uses Gravity to set thing's 'fall direction' in any way he wants, and also uses it to create a gravitational field around an object, which pulls arrows towards it.

 

Similarly, we see Growth used to grow seeds into vines, breaking a window. We also see it used to heal wounds. We've only seen one use of Friction by Lift, but it's possible there's more. (Perhaps she can use it on other people, and increase their air resistance to the point where it's like paralyzing them?)

 

Illumination, Shallan's Surge, likely provides the ability to create illusions (her order's name is Lightweavers, and that is a type of illusion magic) and also, since I suspect Teft hinted at it (along with Ym's spren), the ability to focus sunlight.

 

I also don't think there's only two uses of magic for each Surge. It would not surprise me if Kaladin could explode things by making vacuums with the Pressure Surge, for example.

 

Sanderson has said there are '10 or 30 magic systems, depending on how you look at it'. Each combination of two Surges counts as a system, I would guess, and how many magic systems have the ability to do only three things?

Edited December 17, 2013 by Moogle

[11thorderknight]

I think the 10 or 30 quote has to do with how people access the magic, to be honest. 10 different surges/combination of surges, but a different way to access each of them for each Shard.

[dj26792 he/him]

doesn't lift use growth to break a window open?

with the seeds right near the start...

 

I also would like to suggest that all healing is a manipulation of the growth surge and referred to as regrowth, but I don't really have much proof, except the chart thats floating around with growth labelled as a surge and neither of those orders having another surge called regrowth.  But I don't really remember where it was to get a link.

[Aether he/him]

I do think the "three powers" hypothesis is rather arbitrary, as there are clearly more powers that does not fall within the range of any of the Surges:

• Rapid healing
• Protection from high falls
• Booming voice, ect.
• Naturally enhances strength, reflexes, speed and stamina
• There is evidence that suggests that Windrunners have a "Force Push/Wave" kind of ability

Now, some of these might be inherent to Surgebinding itself and are not a result of either of the surges, but it does seem like a rather weak claim.

 

The "three lashes" - one effect for each surge and one resulting from the combination of the surges - also seems rather misleading, as there is at least one particular set of powers where this is not the case, such as the Windrunners having two abilities solely based upon the Gravity surge and one upon the Pressure surge. Now, if Stormriding is a Windrunner only ability, we might have found something that might quite possibly be of both surges (Gravity to fly within the Storms and Pressure to keep from being thrown around by the hurricane-level winds), but then we're up to four lashings, and the hypothesis falls apart anyway.

Edited December 18, 2013 by Aether

[Swimmingly he/him]

I wonder if the Surges/voids are Realmatic concepts applicable to other magic systems as well. For example, Health working very much like ReGrowth(note that Health can act differently depending on how much power is used), Allomantic iron and Allomantic steel using forces similar to the basic and reverse lashings, etc.

[Swimmingly he/him]

I do think the "three powers" hypothesis is rather arbitrary, as there are clearly more powers that does not fall within the range of any of the Surges:

• Rapid healing
• Protection from high falls
• Booming voice, ect.
• Naturally enhances strength, reflexes, speed and stamina
• There is evidence that suggests that Windrunners have a "Force Push/Wave" kind of ability

Now, some of these might be inherent to Surgebinding itself and are not a result of either of the surges, but it does seem like a rather weak claim.

 

The "three lashes" - one effect for each surge and one resulting from the combination of the surges - also seems rather misleading, as there is at least one particular set of powers where this is not the case, such as the Windrunners having two abilities solely based upon the Gravity surge and one upon the Pressure surge. Now, if Stormriding is a Windrunner only ability, we might have found something that might quite possibly be of both surges (Gravity to fly within the Storms and Pressure to keep from being thrown around by the hurricane-level winds), but then we're up to four lashings, and the hypothesis falls apart anyway.

I hate to double-post. Sorry.

The stormriding seemed much more like an out-of-body experience type thing to me. More like a cognitive link between the windspren-like honorspren and the windspren/stormspren/whatever that drive the/exist within/are caused by the storm extending to allow a Windrunner's Cognitive presence to be relocated with the storm?

[Aether he/him]

The stormriding seemed much more like an out-of-body experience type thing to me. More like a cognitive link between the windspren-like honorspren and the windspren/stormspren/whatever that drive the/exist within/are caused by the storm extending to allow a Windrunner's Cognitive presence to be relocated with the storm?

I have the distinct feeling that Stormriding might be something else than the out-of-body experience Kaladin had. The word "riding" seems to implicate something physical, not cognitive - though I realise this is not much to go on.

[Swimmingly he/him]

I have the distinct feeling that Stormriding might be something else than the out-of-body experience Kaladin had. The word "riding" seems to implicate something physical, not cognitive - though I realise this is not much to go on.

Then we have the problem of Kaladin having done something whereby he gained physical knowledge of a place he had never seen. This knowledge came of some kind of Investure focused around the movement of a highstorm, or had all the illusion of doing so. Their are several possibilities of what this was in my mind:

-a vision from a shard, similar to Dal's

-a subset power available to windrunners

-a subset power available to pressure or gravity surge users

-a subset power available only to surgebinders

-a symptom of a forming Nahel bond

-a quirk specific to Kaladin (likely only if it was not in fact stormriding)

-something theoretically available to anyone using Stormlight (except Szeth, probably, cause Szeth seems to be the exception to every rule in the book)

-A precursor to Aether's idea of stormriding (also known as foreshadowing)

These options are not mutually exclusive. Personally, I believe that Kaladin did in fact stormride, and that involuntary stormriding is a symptom of forming a Nahel bond with a windlike honorspren, though there is little backing this up.

[Aether he/him]

Then we have the problem of Kaladin having done something whereby he gained physical knowledge of a place he had never seen. This knowledge came of some kind of Investure focused around the movement of a highstorm, or had all the illusion of doing so. Their are several possibilities of what this was in my mind:

-a vision from a shard, similar to Dal's

-a subset power available to windrunners

-a subset power available to pressure or gravity surge users

-a subset power available only to surgebinders

-a symptom of a forming Nahel bond

-a quirk specific to Kaladin (likely only if it was not in fact stormriding)

-something theoretically available to anyone using Stormlight (except Szeth, probably, cause Szeth seems to be the exception to every rule in the book)

-A precursor to Aether's idea of stormriding (also known as foreshadowing)

These options are not mutually exclusive. Personally, I believe that Kaladin did in fact stormride, and that involuntary stormriding is a symptom of forming a Nahel bond with a windlike honorspren, though there is little backing this up.

It might very well be a kind of precursor. But from its name and from the way Honour talks about it, I do think there is more to Stormriding.