What's with all the Kaladin love?

[DreamEternal]

That's likely because Kaladin plays a major part in the story, and will continue to for some time.

Sorry but... Why?

I mean, he is running out of deeply personal plot-points, having only the reunion with his parents. He isn't the de-facto head of the most powerful nation in Alethkar. He didn't recently kill a very powerful man in a fit of rage and now must deal with the consequences. He didn't get recruited into one of Roshar's many conspiracies.

Why shouldn't he be rotated out of the spotlight, since this series explores worldchanging events that affect many more people and does not lack interesting characters to take some of his space?

Edited December 8, 2015 by CognitivePulsePattern

[DSC01 he/him]

Kaladin actually is a very important figure in this story, even if a lot of his personal arc has been resolved. The lighteye/darkeye cultural disparity is not a minor thing, and Kaladin is pretty much the key player in addressing that huge issue. I don't think he'll have quite so much time dedicated to him as we move forward, but his arc is far from over and done with.

[maxal she/her]

I don't believe anyone truly believes Kaladin's story arc is finished or he should be removed from the story. I believe what some of us are expressing is a growing discomfort at seeing Kaladin being over-developed as a character while others are severely under-developed. There is a imbalance when it comes to characters and the balance beam is much heavier on Kaladin's side.

 

What we are saying, essentially, is coming into book 3, some of us find the issues resolving around other characters, such as Szeth or Adolin, more interesting and more relevant to the overall story arc than Kaladin inner turmoil upon seeing his family again. This being said, Kaladin's arc is certainly not done, but it probably does not need to occupy 1/3 to 1/2 of the next book.

 

I personally believe a diverse cast of equally well developed character is more interesting to read than a multi-POV story where one character is clearly favored. This being said, Brandon may have different ideas and I have since come to realize the story I wish to read may not be the story he wishes to write. Only time will tell.

[Vander]

Something that irks me is that apparently Brandon has been considering writing a second Kaladin book. Not completely sure where I read that,  so if anyone knows the source I'd welcome the knowledge.

 

While his arc was enjoyable, I feel that it's unfair to the other characters to lavish so much time on one person. I'd much rather read more about Adolin, or Jasnah, or Dalinar. (My feelings about the Szeth arc are, of course, transparent.) The classic "small-town boy turned world leader" is just too... meh.

[WeiryWriter he/him]

Something that irks me is that apparently Brandon has been considering writing a second Kaladin book. Not completely sure where I read that,  so if anyone knows the source I'd welcome the knowledge.

 

While his arc was enjoyable, I feel that it's unfair to the other characters to lavish so much time on one person. I'd much rather read more about Adolin, or Jasnah, or Dalinar. (My feelings about the Szeth arc are, of course, transparent.) The classic "small-town boy turned world leader" is just too... meh.

 

He did mention doing a second Kaladin book, but that was quite a few years ago (as in shortly after the release of WoK).  Brandon has mentioned his current line-up and a second Kaladin book is not a part of it.

[Vander]

He did mention doing a second Kaladin book, but that was quite a few years ago (as in shortly after the release of WoK).  Brandon has mentioned his current line-up and a second Kaladin book is not a part of it.

*cries* Thank you! I needed that: I've disliked even thinking of a second such book. Honor knows he already has one, and another that may as well be his...

[maxal she/her]

*cries* Thank you! I needed that: I've disliked even thinking of a second such book. Honor knows he already has one, and another that may as well be his...

 

I share the feeling, but Brandon seems rather fixated on his current line-up.

[Meg]

Just throwing a few thoughts into this thread. As for I'm not as eloquent as others it'll be a concise post.

I do like Kaladin for all reasons that have already been mentioned. I don't see him as the *boy from the village that turns worldleader*. Funnily that's exact how I feel about Vin, and, though not that strongly, I also feel similar for Shallan.

So there were parts when I thought *no, not that again*, those made him just more interesting. What about a character, who is only progressing?

Me personally I don't like Szeth (and mostly agree with Maxal here). He had the possibility to keep his oathstone from others and only his "screwed up pseudo-morality" made him refuse that decision. I take into account his cultural background (though it's only hinted at). But he's been around outside of Shinovar for years and this time around should have shown him that him obeying to those orders for killing are not right (simply said).

I am curious, though, what exactly the oathstone means in regard to Szeth's blind obedience. Or did I miss an important tidbit?

Szeth behaves similar to those people in the story Hoid told Kaladin in TWoK ("Wandersail"), where the people murdered their fellow citizens because of them believing what their emperor expects them to do.

Being *picked up* by Nalan isn't a good thing in my estimation. Anyway Nalan goes around killing people (like Ym, who just delivered poisoned wine, though I think that might have been a pretense for just not telling straight on that he's trying to eliminate potential Surgebinders).

So the Nalan-Szeth-combination doesn't give me an easy feeling. Though I wonder how Nightblood will be *fed* once Szeth is drawing him, given that non-invested persons (like ourselves) would only live a short time (as BS told at the AMA a few days ago).

.

So I like Kaladin and all around him as in Syl (!), Bridge Four, Dalinar etc. I do hate him for giving the Shards to Moash, though, as it felt wrong to me instantly.

[Aminar]

As far as Seth goes, I don't like him right now. We're not really supposed to. I pity him. But I don't buy that he needs to be punished. Working in the line of work I do I see a lot of punishment that creates no chance for change or atonement. Instead it perpetuates a negative cycle that cripples the person and everyone in their lives, often leading to whose crimes. Szeth is a prefect example of this. And so I'd rather see him work for his own atonement. I want to see him rehabilitated and made back into the man he was before his culture failed him. Neither execution of imprisonment can do that.

The same holds for our penal system and much of our focus on punishment today.

Punishment teaches all the wrong lessons better than it teaches the right ones because punishment is little more than revenge. It's not about teaching.

[DreamEternal]

As far as Seth goes, I don't like him right now. We're not really supposed to. I pity him. But I don't buy that he needs to be punished. Working in the line of work I do I see a lot of punishment that creates no chance for change or atonement. Instead it perpetuates a negative cycle that cripples the person and everyone in their lives, often leading to whose crimes. Szeth is a prefect example of this. And so I'd rather see him work for his own atonement. I want to see him rehabilitated and made back into the man he was before his culture failed him. Neither execution of imprisonment can do that.

The same holds for our penal system and much of our focus on punishment today.

Punishment teaches all the wrong lessons better than it teaches the right ones because punishment is little more than revenge. It's not about teaching.

I agree almost completely. Although I must say that punishment has its place as a tool not necessarily to reabilitate the criminal, but as way to make society fear the law. I wish it wasn't necessary, but unfortunately I believe it is if reabilitation and softer forms of prevention aren't possible.

Also, I think Szeth wouldn't really hate being imprisioned. I don't think it would be a good idea for any involved to reintroduce him to normal society.

EDIT: Made things clearer.

Edited December 8, 2015 by CognitivePulsePattern

[Shattered he/him]

Because he's clever, capable, and super badchull.

 

Also, he's probably had the most screentime throughout Stormlight at the moment. Except maybe Dalinar. It's been a little while since my last reread.

[maxal she/her]

I am seriously ill-at-ease with comments stating criminals shouldn't be punished and first degree murder is not an offense worthy of imprisonment.

 

I don't think I can comment further on that topic without losing my decency. So that's it for me on the topic of Szeth and his crimes. I have said what I had to say. 

[Jondesu he/him]

I am seriously ill-at-ease with comments stating criminals shouldn't be punished and first degree murder is not an offense worthy of imprisonment.

 

I don't think I can comment further on that topic without losing my decency. So that's it for me on the topic of Szeth and his crimes. I have said what I had to say. 

I have to very much agree with you.  Whatever the motivations behind Szeth's murders, he has to take responsibility and be punished for them, or I will be very annoyed (him dying before that can happen is acceptable, but I think probably unlikely unless Kaladin kills him again, or something similar).

 

As for Kaladin, I see a lot of myself in him as others have said, and his is not the typical journey of nobody to hero, despite having some of those elements.

 

jW

[Aminar]

I am seriously ill-at-ease with comments stating criminals shouldn't be punished and first degree murder is not an offense worthy of imprisonment.

 

I don't think I can comment further on that topic without losing my decency. So that's it for me on the topic of Szeth and his crimes. I have said what I had to say.

The difference is that I want Szeth to define his own punishment. Imprisonment is a terrible punishment. It either breaks the prisoner if they are in solitary or exposes them to a culture that promotes and honors the same violence they already were steeped in. It also wastes resources and... Well. There all kinds of research into why prisons create criminals. We shouldn't want to see anybody punished. We should want to see them redeemed. And prison is the opposite.

That is of course ignoring the nature of Assassination. Everything Szeth has done has been SS an agent of a political power and while World War 2 had given us a system that allows us to punish men for crimes they would have been killed for not committing, I'm not sure that makes it right(but that's a messy subject with no good answers). Instead we should be looking at the architect of the assassinations. Because a lot of the hate for Szeth comes from his own outlook on what he's done. If we saw him as a man who believed in what he done odds are we wouldn't see him as so bad. James Bond regularly does very similar levels of murder in his stories. As do any number of "heroes". All under the guise of saving the world. Much like Szeth is technically doing, so far as his master is concerned. Which is another messy subject with no good answers. When is killing murder is a hard question to answer. It's Szeth's belief enough to make his actions murder? Is he to blame? Or is he making a point about the dangers of indoctrination.

[Vander]

I am seriously ill-at-ease with comments stating criminals shouldn't be punished and first degree murder is not an offense worthy of imprisonment.

 

I don't think I can comment further on that topic without losing my decency. So that's it for me on the topic of Szeth and his crimes. I have said what I had to say. 

While I hesitate to go back to this topic, I would like to point out that most people haven't been saying that he shouldn't be punished, but rather that he should be given a chance to redeem himself. 

 

And, here's a question for you: What is killing "honorably"? Many of the major and much-loved Stormlight (and, in fact, general fantasy) characters have killed, and not always in self-defense. What does it take to differentiate murder from killing? In many cases, people would say it is the context, which leads to the next question: Could it not be that the context of Szeth's killings counts for something in his favor?

[DreamEternal]

I am seriously ill-at-ease with comments stating criminals shouldn't be punished and first degree murder is not an offense worthy of imprisonment.

Welcome to my world. That is how I feel when people take the idea that crimes must be punished as a goal on itself, even when it wouldn't be of much use preventing future crimes or repairing the damage. Or when they talk about "shifting blame" or things like that. We are all victims of an unjust universe in my opinion.

I thought you had already realized many people who pity Szeth instead of hating him are very far from you when it comes to their philosophy.

EDIT: Plus, most of us wouldn't mind Szeth being imprisioned, as long as it wasn't a nightmarish dungeon like many prisions unfortunately are. And that is if we can be sure he is no longer a danger, since if he is then more drastic measures may be needed.

Edited December 9, 2015 by CognitivePulsePattern

[AerionBFII he/him]

I fail to see why he should, I'd rather see him redeem himself for what he's done than say jail time or the death penalty.

What about Adolin driving a knife through Sadeas' eye? Dalinar slaughtering men? Jasnah assassinating Ghostbloods members, Shallan murdering her father. Where can you draw the line?

 

All im saying is that he is following the orders of his Oathstone. Which to the Shin is a law, he is nothing but scum in their eyes and those of his peers for "falsely" announcing the return of the Voidbringers,  if he just stopped following it would be seen by the Shin as skipping out of his punishment. He has never once enjoyed killing people, it has driven him insane. That is the Punishment. He is being torn apart by it, let him redeem himself instead of punishing him more.

 

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Kal is awesome.

Nuff said 

[DreamEternal]

I fail to see why he should, I'd rather see him redeem himself for what he's done than say jail time or the death penalty.

What about Adolin driving a knife through Sadeas' eye? Dalinar slaughtering men? Jasnah assassinating Ghostbloods members, Shallan murdering her father. Where can you draw the line?

All im saying is that he is following the orders of his Oathstone. Which to the Shin is a law, he is nothing but scum in their eyes and those of his peers for "falsely" announcing the return of the Voidbringers, if he just stopped following it would be seen by the Shin as skipping out of his punishment. He has never once enjoyed killing people, it has driven him insane. That is the Punishment. He is being torn apart by it, let him redeem himself instead of punishing him more.

Idealy, I wouldn't mind if most of those people you mentioned, with the exception of Shallan, spent some time in prision, as long as it is not the nightmare most prisions are. I also wouldn't mind if they went unpunished.

In Szeth's case, though, I think his imprisionment should be more because he proved himself in need of much adaptation before he can handle freedom, and because he is not ready to be be reintegrated into society, and maybe never will.

His "imprisionment" in my opinion should be more a life of isolation in Utithiru dedicated to meditation and service. It could be easily substituted by retirement to a distant monastery in the mountains.

Edited December 9, 2015 by CognitivePulsePattern

[Vander]

Idealy, I wouldn't mind if most of those people you mentioned, with the exception of Shallan, spent some time in prision, as long as it is not the nightmare most prisions are. I also wouldn't mind if they went unpunished.

In Szeth's case, though, I think his imprisionment should be more because he proved himself in need of much adaptation before he can handle freedom, and because he is not ready to be be reintegrated into society, and maybe never will.

His "imprisionment" in my opinion should be more a life of isolation in Utithiru dedicated to meditation and service. It could be easily substituted by retirement to a distant monastery in the mountains.

Hmm... that could work. Personally, the one thing I WOULDN'T be able to handle is Szeth being imprisoned forcefully: That would just bring us back to square one. 

[muco]

Kaladin's arc is just starting.

To be honest we are not even exposed to the 'plot' of the series.

 

All we saw in 2 books are personal developments of few characters and events that are a prelude to the main storm that is coming. What the storm is any ones guess at this point.

 

The point is, Kaladin as a character was invested heavily in both the books by author. And going by the tid bits from book 3, it looks like Kaladin will again have loads of POV's. That obviously makes him the prime focus of the series, at least up to this point.

 

Unless BS does a George Martin or Steven Erikson, I think we may be looking at Kaladin a lot.

[CHOUTAGOD he/him]

NOOOOOOOO!!!!! Kaladin cant die like Ned!!!! That would totally make me cry.

( I might never recover ) EVER!

[Vander]

Kaladin's arc is just starting.

To be honest we are not even exposed to the 'plot' of the series.

 

All we saw in 2 books are personal developments of few characters and events that are a prelude to the main storm that is coming. What the storm is any ones guess at this point.

 

The point is, Kaladin as a character was invested heavily in both the books by author. And going by the tid bits from book 3, it looks like Kaladin will again have loads of POV's. That obviously makes him the prime focus of the series, at least up to this point.

 

Unless BS does a George Martin or Steven Erikson, I think we may be looking at Kaladin a lot.

Except, as you said, these are only the first two books. My opinion is that, while Kaladin will have a lot of PLOT involvement, it'll most likely take place in another character's perspective, or off-screen. I simply do not see too much more to his personal arc, and a LOT for other characters. As such, it would be kinda silly to give him EVEN more screen-time.

 

(I mean, seriously. This guy already took over Shallan's book...)

[Eagle of the Forest Path he/him]

Let's look at this by comparing with Mistborn.

 

People related to elend that Vin killed:

• his father
• his brother
• his fiancee
• his god

Now in SA, people related to Adolin that turn out to be radiants:

• his father
• his brother
• his fiancee
• ...

There! Conclusive logical proof that Kaladin = god. 

[AerionBFII he/him]

Kaladin will be going to his home, having all that Laral + Roshone nastiness to deal with as well as a family reunion.

He has got to swing by the capital, which is currently in riots, thanks to the church + Dumb queen.

Oh wait then a Radiant comes walking in, im sure the Ardants will just step aside and let him waltz around.

He has the rest of his oaths to swear.

Battles to fight against the Voidbringers.

Squires to train from Bridge Four.

Meeting Lift (shut up. It WILL happen)

He is also Team Dalinars best fighter. Im sure he could just step aside for the last battle though seeing how their is no longer any need for him to grow though.

[DreamEternal]

Kaladin will be going to his home, having all that Laral + Roshone nastiness to deal with as well as a family reunion.

He has got to swing by the capital, which is currently in riots, thanks to the church + Dumb queen.

Oh wait then a Radiant comes walking in, im sure the Ardants will just step aside and let him waltz around.

He has the rest of his oaths to swear.

Battles to fight against the Voidbringers.

Squires to train from Bridge Four.

Meeting Lift (shut up. It WILL happen)

He is also Team Dalinars best fighter. Im sure he could just step aside for the last battle though seeing how their is no longer any need for him to grow though.

With the exception of the reunion at Hearthstone, none of those plot points are deeply personal, like Shallan's search for knowledge about her brother, Adolin's murder of Sadeas, or Dalinar's recent bond with the Stormfather. Or whatever Nale plans to do to Szeth.

Oh, and Kaladin is a great warrior, yes, but why in Braize should it make him more relevant than Shallan's spying or Dalinar's political leadership? Knowledge and unity are much more important than a single warrior, no matter how powerful. Unless that warrior was recently recruited by a possibly insane Herald and give a weapon of mass destruction, and may cause even more chaos.

And while it is nice to see Kaladin trying to do his duty, we need time for everyone else too! No one wants him to mysteriously vanish, just to lose some screen time.

Edited December 10, 2015 by CognitivePulsePattern