Speculation: Imprisoning Odium

[Elementalist he/him]

I was rereading Hero of Ages, and I began to wonder about something. Why did Honor/Tanavast decide on using the Oathpact in the first place? Shouldn't he have done the honorable thing and sacrificed himself to kill Odium? Even if Odium had somehow become more powerful than him, couldn't he have attempted to imprison him by sacrificing his mind, as Preservation imprisoned Ruin?

Any thoughts on why he didn't go with either of these strategies?

[Oudeis he/him]

The "imprison the mind," it's possible that he didn't think of it. From the annotations, Leras surprised Ati with that move because Ati hadn't thought it was an option. Maybe Honor just didn't think of it.

 

For the rest, who knows? Shards have a TON of rules, and we can't necessarily guess what one group are capable of just because we've seen two in action. Perhaps there was some "law of metaphysics" that prevented such a simple solution, or maybe Odium arranged things when he arrived so that doing so would have made something even worse happen.

 

Good questions, but we're gonna need to learn a whole lot more about Shards as a whole, and this specific occasion, before we can even speculate on the answers.

[Shardlet he/him]

The case between Ruin and Preservation was a special one because the intents of the shards were directly opposed to one another.  I suspect that the same applies to the manner of Preservation's imprisonment of Ruin.  In contrast, Honor and Odium do not appear to be directly opposed in intent.  We must also consider what aspect of Honor is Honor's guiding intent and what aspect of Odium is Odium's guiding intent.  Once we have that info, we would be much better equipped to speculate about what the Oathpact was and how it was entered into (that is, assuming we don't learn about it more directly before then).  If Honor was to directly attack Odium in the way that Vin directly attacked Ruin, I very much doubt that the effect would be the same or even similar.  

[Moogle]

I was rereading Hero of Ages, and I began to wonder about something. Why did Honor/Tanavast decide on using the Oathpact in the first place? Shouldn't he have done the honorable thing and sacrificed himself to kill Odium?

 

Preservation was special in his Intent. Using his power to 'freeze' someone, or put Ruin into stasis, is well within his Shard's boundaries.

 

Honor's shtick is his ability to bind things, to force contracts, if Syl is any example as an honorspren. It's probably the case that the Oathpact was simply the best Honor could do. And it's similar with Cultivation- what's she going to do, make Odium grow?

 

Honor and Cultivation's Intents are just not as effective for fighting as Preservation in this case, I would guess.

Edited January 7, 2014 by Moogle

[Elementalist he/him]

You're right, I should have waited until we knew more before creating this topic. Sorry.

[Aether he/him]

You're right, I should have waited until we knew more before creating this topic. Sorry.

Yeah! Fork off! Shame on you!!!!

In all seriousness, I disagree. Of course, you shouldn't just make a Thread about any random thought, but it helps the discussion to present new and different ideas, even if they later turn out to be wrong. If nothing else, we've been able to write off an idea, and even a wrong idea might still inspire another one that turns out to be correct. 

 

EDIT: Removed the asterisks. And added a smiley.

Edited January 7, 2014 by Aether

[Shardlet he/him]

Aether, does replacing the 'u' and the 'c' with a * really make that much of a difference?  While you did not write the actual word, the effect is identical.  We all read and heard the actual word.  Please, (I earnestly request this) recognize the spirit of the rule rather than simply the letter of it.

[Arook he/him]

Preservation was special in his Intent. Using his power to 'freeze' someone, or put Ruin into stasis, is well within his Shard's boundaries.

 

Honor's shtick is his ability to bind things, to force contracts, if Syl is any example as an honorspren. It's probably the case that the Oathpact was simply the best Honor could do. And it's similar with Cultivation- what's she going to do, make Odium grow?

 

Honor and Cultivation's Intents are just not as effective for fighting as Preservation in this case, I would guess.

 

I agree that what preservation did to trap ruin only make sense for preservation to do. Once life had been created I could see preservation doing anything to preserve it. Where honor would have been more driven to make odium fight fair.  Odium could simply have been to strong for that kind of prison, we know Ruin and Preservation were equally matched.

 

Honor having got odium to agree to rule of combat could explain a lot. That could also be the reason that it may be possible to make odium choose a champion. It seems like an odd rule to have just been part of the fabric of the universe.

[Oudeis he/him]

I see in this thread a lot of what I see all on these fora, which is the idea that Shards can only take actions that specifically align with their Intents. There are rules, there are things they can do and things they cannot. But all Shards can see into the future a ways, though to differing degrees. I'm not sure I agree with the base assumption that Honor must, in literally every action, specifically act "Honory".

 

 

The case between Ruin and Preservation was a special one because the intents of the shards were directly opposed to one another.  I suspect that the same applies to the manner of Preservation's imprisonment of Ruin. 

 

I agree with this sentiment. One of the epigraphs points it out specifically in Hero of Ages. It says the minds of Ruin and Preservation, much like the powers of same, could not touch without destroying each other. If Ruin tried to stretch his consciousness past Preservation's "prison", it wouldn't have been like hitting iron bars, it would have felt like hitting an electrified fence.

 

Presumably, two Shards that are less-than-diametrically opposed would not have this problem: Odium, for example, could have survived touching Honor's power/mind long enough to force open a path without having to actually die in doing so.

[Elementalist he/him]

While I agree that Honor could not have imprisoned Odium like Preservation did to Ruin, I don't believe that they only destroyed each other because they were opposites. I find it difficult to believe that every other Shard in the Cosmere is essentially immune to the others' direct attacks. I agree that likely circumstances (and Odium's trickery) prevented a direct fight, but I believe that if that fight had occured, it would have led to either mutual distruction or Odium fleeing.

[Vortaan he/him]

I see in this thread a lot of what I see all on these fora, which is the idea that Shards can only take actions that specifically align with their Intents. There are rules, there are things they can do and things they cannot. But all Shards can see into the future a ways, though to differing degrees. I'm not sure I agree with the base assumption that Honor must, in literally every action, specifically act "Honory".

 

 

 

I agree with this sentiment. One of the epigraphs points it out specifically in Hero of Ages. It says the minds of Ruin and Preservation, much like the powers of same, could not touch without destroying each other. If Ruin tried to stretch his consciousness past Preservation's "prison", it wouldn't have been like hitting iron bars, it would have felt like hitting an electrified fence.

 

Presumably, two Shards that are less-than-diametrically opposed would not have this problem: Odium, for example, could have survived touching Honor's power/mind long enough to force open a path without having to actually die in doing so.

 

Would you concede that the end result needs to align with the Intent? For example, Preservation can stab Elend if at the end of the day, there is a way that Elend is NOT Ruined. Honor can probably lie in order to act Honorably. Ruin can build things up if they are more useful for Ruining that way. AT the end of the day though,I think a Shard's final result -has- to align with it's Intent, or else what are Intents for?

 

On topic, I agree with those that said that Honor just doesn't have the right kind of Intent to fight Odium. I wonder if the Oathpact was his version of the Leras trick. Also keep in mind that as far as we know, Odium has splintered three separate Shards. He's got to be a bit tough to go up against without being pretty clever, I'd think.

[Elementalist he/him]

On topic, I agree with those that said that Honor just doesn't have the right kind of Intent to fight Odium. I wonder if the Oathpact was his version of the Leras trick. Also keep in mind that as far as we know, Odium has splintered three separate Shards. He's got to be a bit tough to go up against without being pretty clever, I'd think.

I think that it was cleverness on Odium's part that allowed him to separate those shards, not an overall greater power level. I don't think Shards can only fight if their Intents are opposite (although I could be wrong). I think there were other circumstances involved that prevented Honor from choosing to fight Odium.

[Moogle]

Would you concede that the end result needs to align with the Intent? For example, Preservation can stab Elend if at the end of the day, there is a way that Elend is NOT Ruined. Honor can probably lie in order to act Honorably. Ruin can build things up if they are more useful for Ruining that way. AT the end of the day though,I think a Shard's final result -has- to align with it's Intent, or else what are Intents for?

 

I'm not Darnam, but I'd argue that it's not the end result, it's the method you use. Leras could stab Elend if he was focused on preserving Ruin's prison. This could involve a lot of mental gymnastics (it's possible to use your Intent to do opposite actions, like Leras could justify not killing Elend if he focused on preserving Elend's life), but I think it should be workable and would explain Leras' actions. I don't think that after thousands of years of having his mind eroded by Preservation that he could have managed most of what he did if he had to be focused on the end result of maximizing preservation.

 

Darnam has said that the Intent being so powerful makes for boring villains, and frankly, I agree. I don't think this hurts the theory though; I think Ruin throughout Mistborn was boring (as a character), so it wouldn't surprise me if the rest of the Shards were. I am okay with all the Shards being that way. They are more natural disasters than actual characters to me, so making them one-dimensional is a-okay. They're all getting killed off anyways.

Edited January 8, 2014 by Moogle

[Shardlet he/him]

While I agree that Honor could not have imprisoned Odium like Preservation did to Ruin, I don't believe that they only destroyed each other because they were opposites. I find it difficult to believe that every other Shard in the Cosmere is essentially immune to the others' direct attacks. I agree that likely circumstances (and Odium's trickery) prevented a direct fight, but I believe that if that fight had occured, it would have led to either mutual distruction or Odium fleeing.

 

It is not that they cannot directly attack each other, but rather that the couldn't touch each other.  In HoA, it was painful for Vin to come in contact with Ruin.  However, to kill Ati, she simply grabbed onto him and held on in spite of the pain until they were both killed.  That only worked because the diametric opposition of Ruin and Preservation.  Such would not be the case with the other shards. 

 

As to a direct fight, I think it is pretty well established that the shards are all roughly equal to one another in power.  So it would likely be down to the cleverness and strategies of each of the people holding the shards.  That gets risky in a one-on-one fight.  Without direct experience, how can you reasonably be assured of defeating your opponent?  Best to play things out in a less risky manner.  So in my view, it is not so much that they can't attack each other directly, but more that it is they won't unless they have a strong reason to suspect they will be the victor.

[Oudeis he/him]

Would you concede that the end result needs to align with the Intent? For example, Preservation can stab Elend if at the end of the day, there is a way that Elend is NOT Ruined. Honor can probably lie in order to act Honorably. Ruin can build things up if they are more useful for Ruining that way. AT the end of the day though,I think a Shard's final result -has- to align with it's Intent, or else what are Intents for?

 

I think Intents are simply non-absolute. I'm not going to argue specific degrees of how an Intent affects you, because it's rampant speculation. What I am going to argue is that people on the fora (maybe I'm reading it wrong) seem to say a lot that "Intent is the thing that matters, and the only thing that matters," and we know that's not true.

 

Shards all have rules. They have universal rules, and they have individual rules (by which I mean, some rules affect all Shards, and some only affect specific Shards). We know they have to Invest in a planet; we know that's a big deal. We know it grants them some capabilities and takes away others. We know that neither Preservation nor Ruin could create, yet for some reason together they could. Why? What part of their "Intents" to preserve and to ruin magically made them able to create? We know most of them have the ability to see the future, and that many of them do it to different degrees.

 

Honor isn't "Iceman" whose powers all have to do with ice. Honor is a Shard, and that alone is a big deal. There are a ton of powers, restrictions, and rules that come with simply being a Shard. One aspect, an important one, perhaps the most important one, is that he views the world through a lens of Honor. It is his baseline, and it's what he thinks of everything in terms of. That doesn't mean we have to assume he has no powers that can't be traced directly back to some basic concept of Honor; it doesn't mean that he pauses before literally every action to think "Wait, could I be more honorable right at this very moment?". Obviously, he has what can only be called an obsessive compulsion to be honorable. But look at the show Monk. The man's OCD affected every action he took, but he was still a human, and he was still a detective. He still had to eat, breath, sleep, walk from place to place, because there are rules about being human that don't go away just because you're now obsessed. He still had skills and drives that were shaded by his compulsions, but not created by them, nor for their express purpose.

 

Honor still felt love. I'm sure he always acted honorably to Cultivation, and I'm sure his romantic gestures were especially noble because that's who he is. But I bet you anything when he looked into her eyes, even after thousands of years, honor was still the second thing he thought about.

 

All I'm saying is, I see people on these fora take it for granted that any question we have about any Shard can, will, and must be answered with "Well, according to his Intent..." and I disagree. I think we've seen evidence that this isn't true.

[Rade]

 

Honor still felt love. I'm sure he always acted honorably to Cultivation, and I'm sure his romantic gestures were especially noble because that's who he is. But I bet you anything when he looked into her eyes, even after thousands of years, honor was still the second thing he thought about.

 

All I'm saying is, I see people on these fora take it for granted that any question we have about any Shard can, will, and must be answered with "Well, according to his Intent..." and I disagree. I think we've seen evidence that this isn't true.

One of the things that we have to remember is that even when Vin turned into Preservation, she kept her own consciousness. Even if the Shard would prevent her from Ruining things, Vin still had emotions, thoughts, and feelings of her own. She was a living thinking being first and a Shard second. 

[Moogle]

One of the things that we have to remember is that even when Vin turned into Preservation, she kept her own consciousness. Even if the Shard would prevent her from Ruining things, Vin still had emotions, thoughts, and feelings of her own. She was a living thinking being first and a Shard second. 

 

Vin only held it a short time, though. I'm sure Ruin was also a thinking feeling person when he originally took up the Shard, but thousands of years later and he was only capable of viewing the world through the lens of Ruin.

[Oudeis he/him]

One of the things that we have to remember is that even when Vin turned into Preservation, she kept her own consciousness. Even if the Shard would prevent her from Ruining things, Vin still had emotions, thoughts, and feelings of her own. She was a living thinking being first and a Shard second. 

 

 

Vin only held it a short time, though. I'm sure Ruin was also a thinking feeling person when he originally took up the Shard, but thousands of years later and he was only capable of viewing the world through the lens of Ruin.

 

Rade, I think you're close but not quite there. Moogle, you're right of course, at a certain point Vin would have eventually started thinking about everything by the metric of Preservation.

 

I say Shard first, Intent second. A close second, mind you, and a big enough deal to at least influence any decision she would have made. But Shard still comes first.

 

I think there are rules that pertain to being a Shard that supersede even an Intent. Just because it's the biggest single part of a Shard's personality, doesn't mean it's literally the entire personality.

 

And moreover, people keep acting like every "power" a Shard has has to relate somehow to the Intent, like how Batman is literally incapable of operating a vehicle that isn't bat-themed. I disagree. There were once sixteen Shards, and they have their own rules. This includes capabilities that they have. They may more-often-than-not choose to use those powers in a way that aligns with their Intent, but that doesn't mean the inherent abilities themselves must be derived from their Intent.

 

Just one man's opinion.

[Edgedancer he/him]

I remember there being a theory about shardic intend that went somewhat like this: "A shard can only recover the power it used if it is used in a way that alignes to it intend." (strongly paraphrased and shortend)

If we consider this acurate it would mean that Honors power would most likely not stick to a prison that isn`t based on Honor. This leaves the Oathpact as the only safe methode, as Odium has a better chance of winning a one on one.

[Oudeis he/him]

I remember there being a theory about shardic intend that went somewhat like this: "A shard can only recover the power it used if it is used in a way that alignes to it intend." (strongly paraphrased and shortend)

If we consider this acurate it would mean that Honors power would most likely not stick to a prison that isn`t based on Honor. This leaves the Oathpact as the only safe methode, as Odium has a better chance of winning a one on one.

 

?? Do you know if there's any actual evidence for this theory? Can you link us to it?

[Edgedancer he/him]

?? Do you know if there's any actual evidence for this theory? Can you link us to it?

This http://www.17thshard.com/forum/topic/369-theory-the-principle-of-intent/?hl=%20shardic%20%20intent should be it.

[Elementalist he/him]

I read in the God Beyond theory thread that Shardic intents are external, not internal. Ruin doesn't destroy himself, Preservation doesn't preserve himself, Odium doesn't hate himself. This would mean that Honor may not have sacrificed himself honorably to destroy Odium because he wasn't bound to be honorable himself.

Now, this is just one theory. It's probably more likely that there were other extenuating circumstances; I just wanted to throw this one out there.

[18th Shard he/him]

They may be only allowed to act according to their intent, but there is a bit of wiggle room there. the how of it isn't controlled directly. It's like their Intent is gravity. They have to go down, but how they get down is up to them, How fast, where to land, what to land on.

 

Edit: That's me speaking, I don't need to quote that.

Edited January 28, 2014 by 18th Shard

[DocHoliday he/him]

I read in the God Beyond theory thread that Shardic intents are external, not internal. Ruin doesn't destroy himself, Preservation doesn't preserve himself, Odium doesn't hate himself. This would mean that Honor may not have sacrificed himself honorably to destroy Odium because he wasn't bound to be honorable himself.

Now, this is just one theory. It's probably more likely that there were other extenuating circumstances; I just wanted to throw this one out there.

I disagree with this idea about Intent being external.

Mistborn spoilers

Preservation clearly had a desire to preserve himself since he was unable to Kamikaze like Vin. His ultimate plan revolved around someone with a bit of Ruin taking up his power and ending Ruin. WoN is that this is what Elend saw when he burned Atium and Duralumin.

I believe his Intent overrode his will to destroy the thing that threatened his creations.

 

 

Note Darnam that I agree with you still that Intent is not the all-time beat-all, but it plays a major influence as I described.

[Aonar he/him]

Just playing devils advocate here, but if you wanted to, you could look at it as Preservation being unable to destroy Ruin, not because he had to preserve himself, but because he had to preserve Ruin.