Everyday life on Shardworlds - What I'd want to see in cosmere books

[Landis963 he/him]

5 hours ago, asterion137 said:

(why go to school when you can just compound copper and pass out coppermind textbooks?).

Because Nicrosil is expensive to produce, and there aren't enough copper veins in the world to keep up with demand.  The limitations on Copper feruchemy are such that the memories in question will emerge from the coppermind as short-term memories, defeating the purpose of using them as study aids.  I could go on, but it won't be quite so simple as "Copperminds make school obsolete."

[asterion137 he/him]

4 hours ago, Landis963 said:

Because Nicrosil is expensive to produce, and there aren't enough copper veins in the world to keep up with demand.  The limitations on Copper feruchemy are such that the memories in question will emerge from the coppermind as short-term memories, defeating the purpose of using them as study aids.  I could go on, but it won't be quite so simple as "Copperminds make school obsolete."

Copper is relatively common and extremely reusable. Nicrosil might be tricky but it's mostly nickel and copper. The problem would be the production rate rather than the metals involved. The Scadrians also have a very strong incentive to find a way to produce nicrosil cheaply. I don't know if they can, but if they end up mass-producing nicrosil, school could very well become obsolete. Copperminds could be given to employees with the knowledge they need to become an expert at their job. A copper compounder could refresh their memories at the end of each day. 

[Pathfinder]

23 hours ago, asterion137 said:

Copper is relatively common and extremely reusable. Nicrosil might be tricky but it's mostly nickel and copper. The problem would be the production rate rather than the metals involved. The Scadrians also have a very strong incentive to find a way to produce nicrosil cheaply. I don't know if they can, but if they end up mass-producing nicrosil, school could very well become obsolete. Copperminds could be given to employees with the knowledge they need to become an expert at their job. A copper compounder could refresh their memories at the end of each day. 

I don't know. I think they would still require training. There is a difference between knowing how to do something, and applying said knowledge. I could know how a jackhammer functions, and how to use it, but that doesn't mean that when I have it in my hands, I am going to be able to handle the kick back like a pro the first time I use it. Then again this is also coming from me, a person who has never held a jackhammer in his life nonetheless employed one lol. 

[Landis963 he/him]

2 hours ago, Pathfinder said:

I don't know. I think they would still require training. There is a difference between knowing how to do something, and applying said knowledge. I could know how a jackhammer functions, and how to use it, but that doesn't mean that when I have it in my hands, I am going to be able to handle the kick back like a pro the first time I use it. Then again this is also coming from me, a person who has never held a jackhammer in his life nonetheless employed one lol. 

If the memories in the Copperminds in question involve using a jackhammer like a pro, then the new hire would get a 1st-person example of how to hold it, how to deal with the kick, etc.  It wouldn't obviate training entirely, no, but it would definitely cut out a large chunk of time from the training process.  

[Irkutsk he/him]

I don't think having copperminded would make school obsolete. I mean, look at Earth. The vast majority of people in first-world countries have access to the Internet, often in their pockets at all times in the form of smartphones. But we still have school. Similar arguments can be made: "Why do I need to learn algebra when I can learn it on the fly from the Internet if my job requires it?" Because memorizing is not the same as putting into practice. All the copperminds in the world won't help you fix a transmission or win a court case, they can only give you information, just like a cell phone can. People trained in these areas are valued for their skills and experience, not their ability to memorize information. 

That said, copperminds would still probably be banned in schools, for the same reasons cell phones are. I imagine bronze medallions might be standard-issue though- who wants student falling asleep in class? 

[Pathfinder]

26 minutes ago, Landis963 said:

If the memories in the Copperminds in question involve using a jackhammer like a pro, then the new hire would get a 1st-person example of how to hold it, how to deal with the kick, etc.  It wouldn't obviate training entirely, no, but it would definitely cut out a large chunk of time from the training process.  

Eh, I dunno. I still think the ability of a coppermind is being exaggerated in this case. Tapping a memory in a coppermind does not impart skill. Only the memory. It would be the equivalency of you watching a how to video on using a jackhammer like a pro. So sure you would feel what it was like for the jack hammer to kick, and how the person who made the copper mind dealt with it, but unless you have the same physical stature, and physique, you are going to need to adjust and that takes practice. Another example are vr simulations. You could sit in a chair shaped like a nascar seat, with a steering wheel, and the vr set, where the wheel and seat vibrate and react as you drive, but that still doesn't count as a license to drive in a real nascar race. You aren't gaining the skill of the person who made the copper mind. You are just experiencing the result of said skill. But given what we know, I do not feel there is a concrete way to determine either way. It comes down to opinions. In our opinions, we disagree on the level of utility of the coppermind. Personally I am not sold. 

[asterion137 he/him]

if you could use nicrosil to make everyone a copper compounder it might make school obsolete except for a few select professions. Normal copperminds that everyone has cheap access to might not be able to do the same.  However, I think universal copperminds could possibly stop the growth of school as an institution (we actually haven't seen any schools besides a single university on scadrial iirc)

[Pathfinder]

9 minutes ago, asterion137 said:

if you could use nicrosil to make everyone a copper compounder it might make school obsolete except for a few select professions. Normal copperminds that everyone has cheap access to might not be able to do the same.  However, I think universal copperminds could possibly stop the growth of school as an institution (we actually haven't seen any schools besides a single university on scadrial iirc)

Before I respond, could you clarify as to why you feel by being a compounder, the result would be different than just regular copper? Are you referring to mass production, or a different manifestation of the power being resultant of the compounding?

[Oversleep]

Knowledge =/= skill. And the knowledge copperminds offer is short-term, so it means it fades. To learn we need to have long-term knowledge, and still that knowledge is mostly useless without skills needed to apply it.

And skill means training, and training means school.

And even if there was a way to impart both knowledge and skill onto someone else, arguments can be made that without learning these things personally it's not gonna work great.

EDIT: I should probably add that there is a difference between knowing and understanding - I could tell someone a formula and that person could memorize it; but only through learning would that person be able to understand it and know its inner workings, connections and implications.

Edited July 14, 2016 by Oversleep

[DrakeMarshall he/him]

Copper compounding and medallions probably would make books obsolete, not school, no? I mean, they are a superior way of holding information, because the time it takes to assimilate information from a coppermind is theoretically instantaneous where a book needs to be read through. But otherwise it has the same effect as a book, which is to say we still would use schools. Mind you, one can learn with only a book and no school if they are determined, but school definitely helps.

It would be interesting to see someone selling chromium medallions...

Lol I just thought of something with your talk about taking measures against allomancy in schools... "No smoking" signs would have a double meaning

Edited July 16, 2016 by Drake Marshall

[Eki]

You'd need to learn FROM something though, and copper memories degrade when not in storage. Copperminds have many advantages, but so do books, etc. One isn't clearly superior in every way.