Prologue, Chapters 1 & 2 (from Tor)

[The Rooster he/him]

Gavilar's bodyguard. Has he been mentioned before? Szeth must have killed him but I don't remember him killing anyone else after Gavilar showed up in plate.

[The Count he/him]

Gavilar's bodyguard. Has he been mentioned before? Szeth must have killed him but I don't remember him killing anyone else after Gavilar showed up in plate.

I would assume he was one of the men guarding Sadeas.

I read the scene to be that the intention was for the assassin to believe that Gavilar in the shardplate was the bodyguard since he was seen wearing Gavilar's plate for the last few months.

[Natans he/him]

I would assume he was one of the men guarding Sadeas.

I read the scene to be that the intention was for the assassin to believe that Gavilar in the shardplate was the bodyguard since he was seen wearing Gavilar's plate for the last few months.

  

One think that looks odd to me is that Gavilar worn his plate that are being used by other person in question of minutes when he noticed the attack. It was a very odd strategy now that we know that the bodyguard was already using the plate. 

 

I'm very suspicius of this bodyguard now. It look like that Gavilar was trying to protect him or something. Why so much trouble to change place with him. And where are this fella ?

 

If Gavilar wanted to have someone in secret by his side would be very easy put that person inside of the shardlate with the helm on so that person could stay at his side listining to everything with the excuse of being guarding the King.

 

Maybe i'm reading to much but something is odd here.

 

 

Gavilar's bodyguard. Has he been mentioned before? Szeth must have killed him but I don't remember him killing anyone else after Gavilar showed up in plate.

 

No Gavilar as the last one to die. The bodyguard as with Sadeas and he should be at the king side when Szeth attacked, because Gavilar used his own plate to fight Szeth. They changed places before Sadeas stunt. 

Edited January 9, 2014 by Natans

[meddler]

They were trying to fool the assasin into thinking that the guy in Plate was indeed the guard and not the King.

This was mentioned in the prologue of WoK, Unfortunately, Szeth figured it out and came back.

 

As to the second part, if you are saying that they could have the King in full plate and have another guard in Shards alongside him, I'd imagine it is possible but they probably didn't think there would be that much of a threat in a banquet to a one person army. 

Edited January 9, 2014 by meddler

[Moogle]

They were trying to fool the assasin into thinking that the guy in Plate was indeed the guard and not the King.

This was mentioned in the prologue of WoK, Unfortunately, Szeth figured it out and came back.

 

Sadeas was playing the part of the running king, though. Where did Tearim end up, given that he was wearing the King's Plate not too long before? Plate takes time to put on - look at how Dalinar needed help.  The time from Jasnah seeing Tearim leave in Gavilar's Plate and Gavilar ending up with the Plate on would have been 5 or 10 minutes at most.

 

I will not be surprised if it turns out Gavilar is still alive. Lightweaving could have made for a very convincing Gavilar-looking Tearim. Shallash had only just recently passed through, given that the Shallash statue was missing from the feast and the maybe-Herald talking about how worried he was about Ash.

 

That wouldn't explain the Shardbearer's ridiculously good skill, or the dying words of whoever was wearing the Plate (which seemed intended for Dalinar). I'd give Gavilar being alive a 10% chance, though.

 

... I may as well go make a thread so I can go bring it up in case I'm right.

Edited January 9, 2014 by Moogle

[Natans he/him]

They were trying to fool the assasin into thinking that the guy in Plate was indeed the guard and not the King.

This was mentioned in the prologue of WoK, Unfortunately, Szeth figured it out and came back.

 

As to the second part, if you are saying that they could have the King in full plate and have another guard in Shards alongside him, I'd imagine it is possible but they probably didn't think there would be that much of a threat in a banquet to a one person army. 

 

Yes that was explained, Szeth discovered the plan, but that was very odd plan, I don't know what but something looks fishy here.  

 

Do it Moogle =)

Edited January 9, 2014 by Natans

[The Rooster he/him]

Where did he go after this? Maybe protecting Elhokar's wife? That could cause issues for Jasnah's assassin/spy.

[dionysus]

One other observation. It is so refreshing to read a fantasy novel where competent characters recognize the competence in other characters and behave accordingly by including each other in plans, working together, and sharing information.

 

Too many authors generate tension in the story by having the main characters behave like complete imbeciles to each other even though the text tells us the are best friends, have deep respect, etc etc etc.

 

The biggest example of this is the fact that Jasnah told Navani about Shallan's potential, and Navani recognizing the importance. But also her willingness to teach Shallan so she can reach her potential.

Edited January 9, 2014 by dionysus

[Moogle]

One other observation. It is so refreshing to read a fantasy novel where competent characters recognize the competence in other characters and behave accordingly by including each other in plans, working together, and sharing information.

 

I'll admit, it's doing better than the Wheel of Time, but I'm not sure it's doing well enough to be called refreshing.

 

Sharing information? Honor's visions and the Parshendi's explanations to Jasnah are frustratingly vague. The Stormfather that Kaladin sees in his highstorm vision was also vague. Kaladin's hiding important secrets from Dalinar, Shallan still hasn't told Jasnah about her Shardblade. The Alethi fighting the Parshendi without knowing why they killed Gavilar. Gavilar's dying words were hardly illuminating (though he has extenuating circumstances). Taravangian keeping his death prophecy collection secret. I'm sure there's a dozen more examples I've missed.

 

I'm not trying to say that there should be no secrets, but come on Honor - you're dying and have a mind the size of a planet, you can explain how you go about getting Odium to choose a champion, what the Dawnshards are, who has to be united, etc. Same goes for quite a few people.

 

Clear communication skills are not something fostered on Roshar.

Edited January 9, 2014 by Moogle

[dionysus]

Moogle, there are at least in-universe reasons that make sense for a lot of things: Kaladin's distrust of the nobility which is a central point of his character arc, Taravingian being pretty much a bad guy doing the opposite of journey before destination and overwhelming hubris (only I can save the world), Shallan not admitting to murder makes a lot of sense, etc.

 

In say Wheel of Time, best friends would treat each other like children despite all evidence of competence, lovers would behave like they hated each other and never talk to each other ever, and no one would ever seek out help in the face of overwhelming odds no matter what, and untrained children would be sent to take on the equivalent of demi-gods.

 

So yea it is refreshing.

Edited January 9, 2014 by dionysus

[Shardlet he/him]

I agree with dionysus.  Most of the cases you pointed out Moogle, while frustrating to us as readers, are natural responses to the circumstances of the characters.  There is no way, if I were in Kaladin's place, I'd be talking about it with anyone, other than Teft really, until I understood a lot more about it from Syl at least.  There is not a country on Earth that wouldn't have declared War on the Parshendi in response to the assassination and how the Parshendi admitted to and handled their response to it, assuming of course the capacity to carry out such a war (without allies, Belgium would not be likely to declare war on the USA for such an action).  Shardblades are dicey business particularly in the hand of a woman, and Shallan is only just beginning to develop trust in Jasnah.  Taravangian is, however, one who is overly-cagey for no apparent good reason, but we've only talked to him for a couple of chapters.  The highstorm visions, that we've seen so far, are vague.  But, judging by the Purelake vision, there is more that we don't have yet.  I suspect much more.  I think we have only seen a sampling of the visions (I'd guess 25-33%).  

 

The first book in a 10 book series should introduce several key characters, provide sufficient info to get a feel for the world, establish some basis of conflict for the book itself as well as the entire series, and build tension.  WoK does all these things and does it well.  If everyone was open and sharing with all their information the story would be limp, cumbersome to read (because the info dump would not be interesting or valued until the reader is well situated with the characters, the world, and the story).  Now if these same secrets are still being kept in book 4, then that is a different situation all together.  Then there is lack of progress and development of the characters and the story.  

 

But, we only have book 1 so far and I don't see many irrational secrets being kept (by either the characters or the author).

[Scott]

I think you've hit the nail on the head Shardlet.  Nice post!

 

I feel that the people here condemning the Alethi for going to war over the assassination of Gavilar are being sanctimonious.  Wars have been started over much less.  Our entire world was plunged into war in 1914 after an archduke, the heir but not yet the emperor, was assassinated.  The Alethi were already a warmongering civilization, and they had their king brutally murdered on the very night a treaty was signed.  I find their reaction completely believable.

[Moogle]

Reasonable enough, Shardlet. I'll give it a few books. It is better than WOT in any case.

 

Wars have been started over much less.  Our entire world was plunged into war in 1914 after an archduke, the heir but not yet the emperor, was assassinated.  The Alethi were already a warmongering civilization, and they had their king brutally murdered on the very night a treaty was signed.  I find their reaction completely believable.

 

Who says their reaction isn't completely believable? Has anyone argued that? It's well in line with their established culture, and naturally most nations on Earth would do the same thing. That doesn't mean I can't condemn most Earth nations for doing the same thing as well. 9/11 comes to mind as a similar, recent example of it happening, though the War in Afghanistan is nowhere near as clear-cut badly done as the Alethi's Vengeance Pact. Understandable, believable, but poorly thought out.

 

(I would prefer not to get into real world politics, but suffice it to say that the War in Afghanistan was an inefficient use of money, has gotten tens of thousands of civilians killed, and thousands of American soldiers killed. I believe it's done some good for the region, though I don't know whether it balances the deaths and millions of refugees created. Public opinion polls of Afghans have a majority saying that they approve of the US attempting to remove the Taliban, though how much I can trust them I do not know. Apparently, increased health care has also saved tons of lives in Afghanistan, too, which is great. It still would have been more efficient to use the billions of dollars per month spent on that on charity, with tons of drones being used to strike the Taliban rather than spending money sending soldiers. If you'd like to discuss 9/11 specifically, I'm welcome to doing it over PM.)

Edited January 9, 2014 by Moogle

[Natans he/him]

I think you've hit the nail on the head Shardlet.  Nice post!

 

I feel that the people here condemning the Alethi for going to war over the assassination of Gavilar are being sanctimonious.  Wars have been started over much less.  Our entire world was plunged into war in 1914 after an archduke, the heir but not yet the emperor, was assassinated.  The Alethi were already a warmongering civilization, and they had their king brutally murdered on the very night a treaty was signed.  I find their reaction completely believable.

 

Well that as the excuse at least, by what I remenber Germany, France, and the United Kindgom are at which other throats for a good half century before the war =)

 

Like in the Parshendi case the Gavilar death was the last drop, not the first one. Many people, like Sadeas and other highprinces, from the begin wanted dominate the parshendi with brute force and when Gavilar was killed they gained momentum, the political and economic reasons are what prolong this war (it's to damnation lucrative). 

 

After the war begun everyone that talked about peace was segregated, like Dalinar, so the problem aren't really the parshendi treason(they already killed some 20% of their population any revenge seeked was obteined long ago), this is just a excuse, the problem is that there are too much money to gain in this war to let end it.

 

Real life examples of war with economic reasons (war is lucrative) disguised as something are everything but uncommon. I don't mean to offend anyone here but i think that this is Brandon critic of stupidbility of war in general in our society.

 

The Alenthi could be compared with any nation modern or ancient with imperialist ambition. And in this book you could see critics to politics, capitalist, religion organazation, etc if you look for with.

Edited January 10, 2014 by Natans

[Shardlet he/him]

WWI is an interesting case.  It became a world war because of the network of diplomatic treaties an alliances that were in place.  It was essentially a war of diplomatic necessity.  Everyone held their treaties and alliance as weightier than the presumed costs (not just financial) of  war.  Although, had they known what that war would turn out to be like, I suspect that more than a few countries would have said thanks, but no thanks.

 

You are absolutely right Natans.  While the War of Reckoning was expected in its origin, it is vastly different in its current form.  The only people who apparently care about what the war is actually about are Dalinar and to a lesser degree Elhokar.  The other highprinces pay the vengeance pact lip service as a means of enriching themselves by winning gemhearts.  

 

I am anxious to see how the other highprinces will react to the changes Dalinar intends to implement.  I expect the more successful highprinces (like Sadeas) will be furious as they see their incomes decrease.  In contrast, I expect that some of the less successful highprinces (particularly those geographically close to Sadeas) will be pleased because they will now have greater opportunity for income. 

[Cad he/him]

I don't think any of the highprinces will be happy at all about the changes that Dalinar is going to make. Despite Gavilar uniting the country in name, he never truly brought Alethkar together. Most of the highprinces still view the king as a figurehead. Elhokar Is a weak king and has allowed the highprinces to do whatever they want while paying him lip service. The only reason the country hasn't broken apart is because Sadeas and Dalinar back the king and Elhokar doesn't impose on the autonomy of the highprinces much. It will be interesting to see what the fallout will be...I think Sadeas will still end up being Dalinar's closest ally in protecting Elhokar, and we've already seen what kind of an ally Sadeas is.

Edited January 9, 2014 by Cad

[Gamma Fiend he/him]

Only in a Brandon Sanderson forum can a complete discussion and breakdown of WW1 not be a thread derailment.

[dyring]

Noticed one thing. Navani seem to know about Jasnah´s soulcasting/shadesmaring(nice word that;))

 

She wouldent consider Adolin marrying some daughter to a minor bankrupt house with powerful enemies for no reason right? So likely Jasnah could tell her about her having special abilities.

 

Thats interesting.

[JesseQ]

I am not disappointed in the least with Dalinar’s decision or method to actually end the war. Nor am I disappointed with Jasnah’s refusal to defuse the situation. I don’t view either decision as a manifestation of a character flaw. I certainly hope that Kaladin does not try to talk Dalinar out of what I consider a sensible course of action. However, I understand why one might disagree with me. I guess that comes down to beliefs you hold in the real world.

 

That said, I think we can probably all agree that if the Alethis, the Parshendi, the Voidbringers, Cultivation and Odium all sat down, worked it out with hugs and good will, then had a spot of tea and some biscuits whilst discussing Rosharan pop culture… well, then we wouldn’t have a very engaging story here.

 

Now, I would like to make a prediction. I do not think Dalinar will be killed off… just yet. However, I have a feeling that Adolin might not survive this book. Obviously, this is not a theory because it cannot be backed up with any quotes; it is however my prediction. I feel like he’s a little mini-Dalinar and that it’s too easily assumed that he will take his father’s place as Highprince. By the end of tWoK he’d fallen in line with his father’s way of thinking and was embracing the teaching of that stormin book. It seems to me that father/son conflict died a quick death. Wit mentioned Relarin’s hidden strength in the Chasmfiend scene and hidden strength is easier to build upon than the established strength of Adolin; however, it may need a catalyst and what better catalyst than the death of a strong, capable and proven heir. I do think there will be tension between Adolin and Renarin regarding Shallan but in the end Adolin will die trying to save his father or his little brother. I think we may see Adolin become less likable as the book progesses due to tensions with Kaladin and Renarin and then in one last heroic act of redemption he sacrifices himself for the people he loves. Just a guess.

 

Also, I think Shardplate is grown once an individual becomes KR; I think it’s “retractable”. That’s why in Dalinar’s first mentioned flashback he notes that one of the KR’s helmet disappeared.

 

Also, the Shin are hiding something on their “farms” that no foreigners are allowed to see.

[marianmi]

JesseQ - good analysis.

I also think at least 1 Kholin will die in this WoR.

Dalinar is protected by Kaladin and Bridge 4, and we've seen they are serious about guarding him. I don't think he will die in this book, I think he will survive, but it will be costly on his new bodyguards.

Renarin is an interesting character, and seems to have a lot of potential. But he does need a catalyst, and he needs to be put in a position of power. Highprice might be too much now, so heir might do.

Adolin is actually a character I like. He's got a nice transformation in TwoK. But he does look like he's the one to die. His death will not only be a catalyst for Renarin, but for Shallan as well (made widow before the marriage) and Dalinar.

Edited January 9, 2014 by marianmi

[2dark he/him]

I think that WoB says that Adolin will probably get his own book, so I doubt that he will die, atleast not in WoR...

[Shardlet he/him]

He might get his own book, Brandon has waffled on that.  Even so, Brandon has expressly said that even though a character has a forthcoming book which has flashback sequences for that character, they may not survive.  He has no problem doing the flashbacks posthumously.

[Chrono she/her]

If Adolin died in this book, it'd stink too much of Elantris and the whole "Wo is me, I'm a widow before I got married" subplot with Sarene. Brandon's been really good at avoiding repeats of his plot points so far as I've been able to tell. I really think he wouldn't do that with WoR.

[shadewolf]

JesseQ - good analysis.

 

Renarin is an interesting character, and seems to have a lot of potential. But he does need a catalyst, and he needs to be put in a position of power. Highprice might be too much now, so heir might do.

 

I personally think Renarin will be spending alot of time with Kaladin in WoR. I feel that Renarin has developed an acute sense of politics that both his father and his brother lack, but due to his body, he has never tried to be a leader. Kaladin is a great leader, but has no clue of the ins and outs of high alethi society. So by pairing them together, they could learn from each other as well as cover the others flaws.

 

Also Kaladin still seem to have harbor a hatred for the lighteyes; Renarin could be used as a plot device to help Kaladin to sympathize and move on from his distaste.

 

So any theories about why, Jasnah and her mother seem to be at odds?

[Moogle]

So by pairing them together, they could learn from each other as well as cover the others flaws.

 

Kalanarin? Renaradin?

 

... I could see it.