Final Surge

[The Count he/him]

Um, politely, but, no.

WOR spoiler

Lift specifically talks about making different parts of her body slick.

I see where you are coming from here.

However, consider if you are in shardplate. If an Edgedancer just made herself frictionless then she would be frictionless inside her plate... not very useful.

If she makes the surfaces she touches frictionless, then that seems to have much more utility.

I suppose you could argue that the plate would transmit the frictionless-ness to the surface of the plate, which is a possibility if the plate is as personal and intimate as I have speculated in the past.

Then again plate is still heavily invested and it has been hinted that surges cannot affect them directly.

Then again, the Windrunner in Starfalls clearly has no problem lashing his plate to stuff...

Hmm.. I seem to have talks myself full circle... I hate it when I do that.

Edited January 16, 2014 by The Count

[Moogle]

Then again, the Windrunner in Starfalls clearly has no problem lashing his plate to stuff...

 

A Windrunner could definitely Lash themself (and only themself inside the Plate) and have it work out okay. The Friction Surge doesn't really allow for that.

 

Of course, in another thread, we discussed how magic that affects the self seems to also affect your clothing. It probably has to do with how you consider your clothing 'you'. So I can see an argument for it affecting only you. We have hints from WoBs that Szeth can't Lash through Plate because his use of magic is foreign to it. It's very possible that a Radiant could Surgebind through their own armor, sort of like how burning tin attunes you to the mists in Mistborn, allowing you to see through them. Just replace 'tin' with Surgebinding and 'mists' with Shardplate.

 

I am 100% with Shardlet.

 

Surges are all external. We've seen no exceptions. Some might have internal side-effects (Soulcasting), but ultimately they affect something you touch. This can be you, like how Lift uses Friction (and it's possible she's just affecting the ground as she touches it), but I imagine Lift could also do a more 'extended' Friction use that would make the ground slippery for anyone running at her, like a Reverse Lashing.

Edited January 16, 2014 by Moogle

[Swimmingly he/him]

A Windrunner could definitely Lash themself (and only themself inside the Plate) and have it work out okay. The Friction Surge doesn't really allow for that.

Of course, in another thread, we discussed how magic that affects the self seems to also affect your clothing. It probably has to do with how you consider your clothing 'you'. So I can see an argument for it affecting only you. We have hints from WoBs that Szeth can't Lash through Plate because his use of magic is foreign to it. It's very possible that a Radiant could Surgebind through their own armor, sort of like how burning tin attunes you to the mists in Mistborn, allowing you to see through them. Just replace 'tin' with Surgebinding and 'mists' with Shardplate.

I am 100% with Shardlet.

Surges are all external. We've seen no exceptions. Some might have internal side-effects (Soulcasting), but ultimately they affect something you touch. This can be you, like how Lift uses Friction (and it's possible she's just affecting the ground as she touches it), but I imagine Lift could also do a more 'extended' Friction use that would make the ground slippery for anyone running at her, like a Reverse Lashing.

Edgedancers would probably be best against Thunderclast then, given that they could just slick the ground around their feet and make them crash into the ground.

[The Count he/him]

A Windrunner could definitely Lash themself (and only themself inside the Plate) and have it work out okay. The Friction Surge doesn't really allow for that.

I am not sure about this... As highly invested objects I would have though that shardplate would block the effects of a surge. Szeth comments that Gavilar's plate means he cannot lash the king to the ceiling for example.

I have a feeling that if Kaladin were Dalinar's to wear plate, he would have the same issue as Szeth and not be able to use his lashings.

If it was his own plate though? The KR plate (personal to them) must work differently somehow to allow lashings / suregbinding while wearing it. It is the only explaination I can think of that fits (although that may be due to my limited imagination).

 

I am 100% with Shardlet.

 

Surges are all external. We've seen no exceptions. Some might have internal side-effects (Soulcasting), but ultimately they affect something you touch. This can be you, like how Lift uses Friction (and it's possible she's just affecting the ground as she touches it), but I imagine Lift could also do a more 'extended' Friction use that would make the ground slippery for anyone running at her, like a Reverse Lashing.

This is difficult to say 100% since both Shallan and Jasnah enter Shadesmar without actually going anywhere... seems pretty internal to me. Or do you simply mean that they cannot Soulcast themselves, ok I can buy that.

But does that mean that Jasnah cannot transport herself anywhere either?

I am not yet convinced of this.

Edited January 16, 2014 by The Count

[Moogle]

I am not sure about this... As highly invested objects I would have though that shardplate would block the effects of a surge. Szeth comments that Gavilar's plate means he cannot lash the king to the ceiling for example.

 

No, no, I mean that a Radiant could Lash themself inside the Shardplate. Their body would be Lashed, and it would force their armor along with them. The Shardplate can't block this, can it?

 

 

But does that mean that Jasnah cannot transport herself anywhere either?

I am not yet convinced of this.

 

I am saying that all of the Surges will be able to be used externally. They alter the world around you, no exceptions. A Surgebinder of course is part of the world, so they can use their powers on themselves. But I mean that Jasnah's Transportation should be able to be used on others, not just herself.

[Shardlet he/him]

This is difficult to say 100% since both Shallan and Jasnah enter Shadesmar without actually going anywhere... seems pretty internal to me. Or do you simply mean that they cannot Soulcast themselves, ok I can buy that.

But does that mean that Jasnah cannot transport herself anywhere either?

I am not yet convinced of this.

 

It all depends on how the transportation is accomplished, which of course, we don't know yet.  If it is opening a portal of sorts, then it is definitely external.  The surge opened acted externally to form the portal, however that may manifest.  To my mind this would include transport via Shadesmar.  If it was direct beaming, then it is not as clearly external. 

[The Count he/him]

No, no, I mean that a Radiant could Lash themself inside the Shardplate. Their body would be Lashed, and it would force their armor along with them. The Shardplate can't block this, can it?

I do not know. But if A KR can lash his body to a distant object through HIS shardplate.

Doesn't that mean that he should also be able to lash something like a large rock to another person through THEIR shardplate?

Then again, maybe they can...

I think it likely you are correct on this but will await more information until I make up my mind.

Edited January 16, 2014 by The Count

[hoser he/him]

Well, I promised myself I would just walk away from this one.  But I must be really stupid, because I've gotten really confused, so I will wade in again. 

I think that all surges are going to be external in effect rather than internal.  In other words, they manipulate the forces in the world around them rather than manipulating the surgebinder themselves.  In other words, to make a surgebinder appear strong, what actually happens is that the gravitational force affecting the thing the surgebinder is lifting is decreased or altered.  The frictional forces of the ground  or floor are altered and thus the surgebinder can slide or stick.  So tineye style and telepathy seems unlikely to me.

What does "external" mean?  A similar example is the Chasmfiend.  I now believe that Dalinar either super-strengthed himself or surface-tensed his armor or himself. For purposes of discussion let's pretend it is being done via strength.  I read the above to say that Dalinar would not have actually become stronger, but the weight (not mass) of the Chasmfiend was reduced.  I don't get it.  A windrunner could effectively reduce the weight of something by changing the direction of some portion of the object's gravitational attraction (assuming the Chasmfiend is not invested, which may not be true, as it has spren that allow it to get huge), but that is not what happened. 

The claw came down with incredible momentum (mass x velocity) and Dalinar withstood it.  Furthermore, when Adolin took out another leg or two, the thing collapsed.  So, I see three problem's with the "external" theory as applied to the situation.

1. The chasmfiend was an invested object, so it would resist an external magic applied directly to itself.
2. Dalinar withstood the momentum, not just the weight, of the claw.
3. If the weight of the chasmfiend was reduced, then why did it collapse?  If it could stand with it's full weight on X legs, then it should, with significantly reduced weight, be able to stand on X-1 legs (assuming reasonable X). 

So, I believe the magic can affect the properties of the mage, "internal" by the definition above.

 

WoR spoiler

Lift thinks she is slicking only parts of herself and maneuvers around by using slick and unslick parts of herself on the the same surfaces.  She imagines that she could slide all the way to the ocean.  The investiture to change the properties of all the areas she's moving around would be much greater and she would have to be affecting remote areas that she is not even aware of.  She describes it as slicking and unslicking parts of herself because that is exactly what she is doing.  So the slicking is internal by the definition above.

 

 

Consider Szeth.  He changes the direction and magnitude of his own gravitational attraction to fly around, walk on walls, etc.  The walls he walks on are not attracting other people in those instances.  "Internal" magic by the definition above. 

 

A Windrunner could definitely Lash themself (edited out discussion of clothing and Shardplate)

 

I am 100% with Shardlet.

 

Surges are all external. We've seen no exceptions. Some might have internal side-effects (Soulcasting), but ultimately they affect something you touch. This can be you,

like how Lift uses Friction (and it's possible she's just affecting the ground as she touches it), but I imagine Lift could also do a more 'extended' Friction use that would make the ground slippery for anyone running at her,

like a Reverse Lashing.

By Shardlet's definition of external neither the windrunner nor the spoiler-person can affect themselves, so, as I understand it, you are 100% not with Shardlet. 

 

No, no, I mean that a Radiant could Lash themself inside the Shardplate. Their body would be Lashed, and it would force their armor along with them. The Shardplate can't block this, can it?

I am saying that all of the Surges will be able to be used externally. They alter the world around you, no exceptions. A Surgebinder of course is part of the world, so they can use their powers on themselves. But I mean that Jasnah's Transportation should be able to be used on others, not just herself.

So it seems that Moogle is using a different definition of external than Shardlet.  What is excluded from Moogle's definition of "external"?  I don't think anyone is arguing that surges can't be used externally. 

[Moogle]

An external power affects the Physical world and has obvious effects. This can include you, but that's just because you're a part of the world. The Gravity Surge fits.

 

An internal power affects you and nothing else. It has no effect on the environment, nor can it. Using Allomantic tin is internal because it enhances your senses, using Allomantic pewter is similar (it enhances your muscles). Using Friction is not because you're doing nothing to your body, you're not enhancing it, you're altering the environment around you so that it no longer has any hold on you (or other things if Lift can indeed use Friction and have it last on other objects).

[Swimmingly he/him]

An external power affects the Physical world and has obvious effects. This can include you, but that's just because you're a part of the world. The Gravity Surge fits.

An internal power affects you and nothing else. It has no effect on the environment, nor can it. Using Allomantic tin is internal because it enhances your senses, using Allomantic pewter is similar (it enhances your muscles). Using Friction is not because you're doing nothing to your body, you're not enhancing it, you're altering the environment around you so that it no longer has any hold on you (or other things if Lift can indeed use Friction and have it last on other objects).

Technically speaking, the muscle you gain displaces the air directly.

[Moogle]

Air is a lie.

[Swimmingly he/him]

Air is a lie.

Also one of the Ten Essences.

[Shardlet he/him]

Watch as I harness the power of pewter to slightly displace the air around me!  Fear me!

Edited January 17, 2014 by Shardlet

[Moogle]

Also one of the Ten Essences.

 

While I was being silly, you have to admit that it's really weird that Shallan and Jasnah need air while in Shadesmar. It would be really weird if the Cognitive Realm included vast amounts of oxygen by default, so I suspect there's something up with air in the Cosmere.

Edited January 17, 2014 by Moogle

[hoser he/him]

I see two different definitions of external here.  I don't see how Shardlet's fits the situation.  I have no problem with Moogle's. 

I think that all surges are going to be external in effect rather than internal.  In other words, they manipulate the forces in the world around them rather than manipulating the surgebinder themselves.  In other words, to make a surgebinder appear strong, what actually happens is that the gravitational force affecting the thing the surgebinder is lifting is decreased or altered.  The frictional forces of the ground  or floor are altered and thus the surgebinder can slide or stick.  ...

Here the surgebinder can't be affected, only his environment.

 

An external power affects the Physical world and has obvious effects. This can include you, but that's just because you're a part of the world. The Gravity Surge fits.

...

Here the surgebinder can be affected.  By this definition of external, I have no problem. 

[el_warko he/him]

With respect to the whole shard plate / friction argument. Doesn't the chapter where Dalinar is getting his plate on describe the plate as an (albeit very heavy) extension of himself? So that any surge which was inwardly (i.e. on self) focused affect the plate as it would if you weren’t wearing it?

[Shardlet he/him]

While I was being silly, you have to admit that it's really weird that Shallan and Jasnah need air while in Shadesmar. It would be really weird if the Cognitive Realm included vast amounts of oxygen by default, so I suspect there's something up with air in the Cosmere.

 

I think that they do not necessarily need to breath in Shadesmar.  I think that they need to breath there only because they think they need to breath there.  Or, alternatively, because they believe that what they are breathing is air, then it functional becomes air.  In both cases, this would be because of some sort of cognitive interaction.

[Macen he/him]

I think that they do not necessarily need to breath in Shadesmar.  I think that they need to breath there only because they think they need to breath there.  Or, alternatively, because they believe that what they are breathing is air, then it functional becomes air.  In both cases, this would be because of some sort of cognitive interaction.

This is how I interpreted it - especially considering it's a cognitive realm. 

Now is that different when they Physically travel there, or the same as when they "Cognitively" travel there.

[Shardlet he/him]

I suspect it will be the same regardless.  Perhaps if they are physically there, then actual air will be there for them to breath because they cognitively expect it to be there.  And when they are not there physically it is merely perception of need and air.

[TomR]

Interesting thread.  Going back a bit, I think the final surge having something to do with communication or maybe some sort of clairvoyance (not precognition, obviously, since that's of Odium, but if Voidbinding is a twisted version of Surgebinding, maybe seeing the present?) makes sense.  Thinking back over the first time Dalinar met the Knights Radiant, the Windrunnner mention that they're all stationed in Alethela or Urithiru.  But they end up in Natanatan when there's a threat.  How did they know the Midnight Essence were attacking?  If the last surge lets them know somehow, that would explain it.

 

It could also be that somewhere in the village was a fabrial like the spanreed.  However, from Dalinar's visions I suspect the old fabrials were 1) limited to the Knights Radiant and 2) only imitated the powers they had via the Surges, like Soulcasters and the Regrowth fabrial used by the Stoneward.  If (1) is correct, the villagers wouldn't have had a way to send the S.O.S., and if (2) is correct, any communication fabrial would relate to the last Surge anyway.

 

The last possibility I can think of is that someone had been tracking the Midnight Essence somehow, but if that's the case I'd think they should have tried to warn the village.

 

All of which is a long way of saying I'm another vote for communication.  Not sure what form it would take, though.

[Macen he/him]

As far as it not being precognition. I'm not going to get completely behind the "it's of odium", that's never directly said, just implied. Cultivation does it. Honor TRIES to do it, he just blows at it.

I will concede that it is PROBABLY not precognition, but I wanted to be the one person to say it just in case. I haven't counted it out yet - I actually still give it a somewhat decent chance.

[DocHoliday he/him]

I see where you are coming from here.

However, consider if you are in shardplate. If an Edgedancer just made herself frictionless then she would be frictionless inside her plate... not very useful.

If she makes the surfaces she touches frictionless, then that seems to have much more utility.

I suppose you could argue that the plate would transmit the frictionless-ness to the surface of the plate, which is a possibility if the plate is as personal and intimate as I have speculated in the past.

Then again plate is still heavily invested and it has been hinted that surges cannot affect them directly.

Then again, the Windrunner in Starfalls clearly has no problem lashing his plate to stuff...

Hmm.. I seem to have talks myself full circle... I hate it when I do that.

 

We should bear in mind that not every KR used ShardPlate and ShardBlade. If ShardPlate doesn't transfer the use of the Friction Surge, the EdgeDancers might just go without.

Technically speaking, the muscle you gain displaces the air directly.

*AHEM* *Pushes nerd glasses up*  Allomantic pewter does not affect muscle mass, and therefore wouldn't move air. You may be thinking of Feruchemical pewter.

 

Now external and internal differences...Surges all seem to affect actual physic properties. Which are certainly external to the individual. They exist beyond the individual.

The confusion arises here I think because these properties can be applied to individuals. Despite this I would contend that Surges are still external in nature because these are forces that exist in nature to begin with. Surges allow for the manipulation of these forces and energies.

[Rew he/him]

An additional thought that may impact speculation on the last surges (which I haven't seen discussed here or elsewhere.  If someone's talked about it, I would love a link...)

 

The Ars Arcanum from WoK states -

The preceding list is an imperfect gathering of traditional Vorin symbolism associated with the Ten Essences. Bound together, these form the Double Eye of the Almighty, an eye with two pupils representing the creation of plants and creatures. This is also the basis for the hourglass shape that was often associated with the Knights Radiant.

 

This makes perfect sense with plants being paired with Order 5 (illumination and growth).  However, seeing Order 10 have something to do with creatures makes less sense if we are assuming that its surges are surface tension and atmospheric pressure (or at least I don't see how surface tension paired with atmospheric pressure would help at all in the taming and training of a Chull/Wildspine/Axehound.  But Brandon is much more creative than I, so ....)

 

I think it would make more sense for surface tension to be paired with transportation in Order 8 (could make for some great logistical/support capabilities), and thus leaving the unknown surge as something that could be utilized specifically in the cultivation and husbandry of animals/creatures.  This could still be some sort of communication surge...  But I can't think of a way atmospheric pressure would work in relation to creatures either...
 

[PorridgeBrick he/him]

An additional thought that may impact speculation on the last surges (which I haven't seen discussed here or elsewhere.  If someone's talked about it, I would love a link...)

 

The Ars Arcanum from WoK states -

This makes perfect sense with plants being paired with Order 5 (illumination and growth).  However, seeing Order 10 have something to do with creatures makes less sense if we are assuming that its surges are surface tension and atmospheric pressure (or at least I don't see how surface tension paired with atmospheric pressure would help at all in the taming and training of a Chull/Wildspine/Axehound.  But Brandon is much more creative than I, so ....)

 

I think it would make more sense for surface tension to be paired with transportation in Order 8 (could make for some great logistical/support capabilities), and thus leaving the unknown surge as something that could be utilized specifically in the cultivation and husbandry of animals/creatures.  This could still be some sort of communication surge...  But I can't think of a way atmospheric pressure would work in relation to creatures either...

Except Peter confirmed that Surface Tension is orders 9-10. No ifs about it. Besides, they're talking about soulcasting essences there, not surges: the essence of #5 is wood, plants, etc, and the essence of #10 is flesh, meat.

[Bramble Thorn]

This "Internal" vs "External" seems to be people incorrectly trying to apply a quirk of the Mistborn Ars Arcana magic rules to the Surgebinding System.

 

The "Surface Tension" surge affects physical phenomena. You know, molecules and rust. Literally. You can probably use the surge to make a turd the focus for a banana peel joke, and as stormlight powered ex-lax to relieve constipation. Because the floor is physically there, and so is the meat bag your consciousness currently calls home.

 

Trying do decide if Lift is "Awesomeing" her skin or the floor because you think she cannot do both is you making a very unsupported assumption.