Amaram: Redemption or Revenge

[Aleksiel]

I would like to say that I believe that Amaram had a very good reason for stealing the shards in the way he did.

Well, most bad guys have some 'greater good' that they are aiming at and use it to justify all the horrible things they do. People overall are great at justifying their actions no matter how bad. Doesn't change the fact that their deeds were terrible and wrong. So to me, Amaram is still guilty for what he did.

 

 

You make a very good point. The difference between him and Sadeas, though, is that there still seems to have been a tiny little shred of reticence and guilt left in him. While what he did is by all definitions despicable, there could still be hope for him yet. 

 

Which to me shows that Sadeas was the one who really believed he was doing the right thing. Doing the wrong thing when you know it's wrong, now that's worse.

 

Is Amaram beyond redemption? No. But I think it will be much harder for him to be redeemed than for Sadeas, because Amaram knowingly wronged Kaladin and his man. Sadeas needs to realize his mistake (not strong enough word, I know) and change his views, but Amaram needs to change as a person much more. 

[Lorna]

Well, most bad guys have some 'greater good' that they are aiming at and use it to justify all the horrible things they do. People overall are great at justifying their actions no matter how bad. Doesn't change the fact that their deeds were terrible and wrong. So to me, Amaram is still guilty for what he did.

 

 

 

Which to me shows that Sadeas was the one who really believed he was doing the right thing. Doing the wrong thing when you know it's wrong, now that's worse.

 

Is Amaram beyond redemption? No. But I think it will be much harder for him to be redeemed than for Sadeas, because Amaram knowingly wronged Kaladin and his man. Sadeas needs to realize his mistake (not strong enough word, I know) and change his views, but Amaram needs to change as a person much more. 

 

8000 soldiers abandoned to be slaughtered, countless hundreds of bridgemen thrown to the enemy like so many rags, former friends and allies betrayed to death, and he didn't bat an eye! He had the filthy gall to be disappointed when Dalinar and Adolin survived with 2653 of their men!

 

Such was not committed from merely ignorance or misguided views. Scarce claim he has on good intentions. Even had that been so, strong disillusionment and stronger remorse could not redeem him from that ocean of blood!

 

If Sadeas has no regrets, I doubt its him thinking he did right. More like he's not feeling bad about it because his conscience is beyond dead.

 

As much as I detest Amram's deeds, they pale in comparison. At least his conscience is still speaking to him. There may be some hope yet.

 

... Obviously a raw subject for me. I just finished rereading the Tower battle the new scene of Kal walking the hauntingly sparse warcamp.

High prince of snakes, indeed. Don't throw him to the whitespines - that would be to merciful.

[Aleksiel]

Such was not committed from merely ignorance or misguided views. Scarce claim he has on good intentions. Even had that been so, strong disillusionment and stronger remorse could not redeem him from that ocean of blood!

 

If Sadeas has no regrets, I doubt its him thinking he did right. More like he's not feeling bad about it because his conscience is beyond dead.

 

As much as I detest Amram's deeds, they pale in comparison. At least his conscience is still speaking to him. There may be some hope yet.

 

Technically, Sadeas didn't kill his own men. Dalinar said in WoK that the Highprinces with their soldiers are more like ten armies fighting together rather than one big force. So, in a way Sadeas thinks of Dalinar and his soldiers as them (the only way a soldier can think according to Kaladin) and Sadeas easily abandoned them. To Sadeas what he did was a maneuver against an enemy. While Amaram slaughtered his own subordinates who defended him and pulled some 'I'm a merciful God, be a slave'-speech, when he destroyed Kaladin's life. 

[Binnut he/him]

Amaram went against both the Alethi Codes of War and the shared radiant ideal, both of which seem to be set up as in-universe guides to morality. I'm not entirely sure what the consequences for Amaram would be for killing Kaladin's squad and appropriating the shards for himself as darkeyes seem to be quite expendable on the whole, but I imagine Dalinar at least would disavow him.

Kaladin as a citizen and 2nd Nahn has the right of inquest, a sort of judge session if a lighteyes does him wrong and he demands it. I doubt that applies to his spearmen.

[Fenris]

Amaram went against both the Alethi Codes of War and the shared radiant ideal, both of which seem to be set up as in-universe guides to morality.

Neither of those has been followed by the Alethi for the last centuries, at least. Even Dalinar admitted that Sadeas' betrayal was "the Alethi thing to do". Who knows if what Amaram did would be considered a crime among Lighteyes...

I don't think Amarams past mistakes will matter much to Dalinar, if he helps with the troubles ahead. (But I've been wrong before)

[junior]

Neither of those has been followed by the Alethi for the last centuries, at least. Even Dalinar admitted that Sadeas' betrayal was "the Alethi thing to do". Who knows if what Amaram did would be considered a crime among Lighteyes...

 

I dunno.  Even the most cynical of the bridgemen seemed to hold it as a basic fact of life that if you beat a shardbearer, you got to keep their shards.  This seems to be ingrained pretty deeply into Alethi culture for some reason.  While Amaram might officially be unharmed if word were to get out about what had really happened, it's possible that others might start to hold him in deep contempt.

 

Additionally, Amaram has apparently built his reputation on being an honorable Alethi.  Word getting out about what really happened would wreck that reputation.

[Arondell]

Technically, Sadeas didn't kill his own men. Dalinar said in WoK that the Highprinces with their soldiers are more like ten armies fighting together rather than one big force. So, in a way Sadeas thinks of Dalinar and his soldiers as them (the only way a soldier can think according to Kaladin) and Sadeas easily abandoned them. To Sadeas what he did was a maneuver against an enemy. While Amaram slaughtered his own subordinates who defended him and pulled some 'I'm a merciful God, be a slave'-speech, when he destroyed Kaladin's life. 

 

An interesting perspective but Sadeas act still qualifies as the betrayal of an ally on the field of battle.  Frankly if I truly thought that reasoning was true then no act could ever be a betrayal because the person you were acting against was really an enemy.

 

I think it really comes down to trust.  Dalinar trusted Sadeas and Sadeas used that trust to try to get Dalinar killed.  That is what makes it a betrayal.

[Aleksiel]

An interesting perspective but Sadeas act still qualifies as the betrayal of an ally on the field of battle.  Frankly if I truly thought that reasoning was true then no act could ever be a betrayal because the person you were acting against was really an enemy.

 

I think it really comes down to trust.  Dalinar trusted Sadeas and Sadeas used that trust to try to get Dalinar killed.  That is what makes it a betrayal.

 

I agree, Sadeas did commit betrayal. I simply showed a different perspective, a reason why Amaram is further from redemption.

 

I've just reread the chapter of Amaram's betrayal and I wonder - if Kaladin had said he changed his mind and wanted the Shards, would Amaram gave them? If yes, then why did he refuse them to Kaladin's men? Amaram says:

 

You see, the men must believe that I killed him. 

 

so I'd say no, he would have denied Kaladin the Shards as well. After all, he didn't even ask Kaladin if he wanted them back. Amaram asks Kaladin why he went back and why he rejected the Shards. Amaram insolently tells Kaladin

 

 

But you are spared death by my mercy.

 

Perhaps if Amaram didn't like Kaladin's reasons, he would have murdered him as well.

[junior]

Perhaps if Amaram didn't like Kaladin's reasons, he would have murdered him as well.

 

I think sparing Kaladin was Amaram's way of assuaging his own guilt.  Kaladin saved Amaram's life.  Only a completely monstrous individual would murder the man who saved him.  So by letting Kaladin live, Amaram can continue to tell himself that he's not a monster.

 

(of course, killing Kaladin's squad was a monstrous act; but that was pretty much required if Amaram was going to take the shards)

[Aminar]

I think the conflict with the Ghostbloods is a big part of what Amaram had for his betrayal.  He's expressed awareness of them, something very few characters have done(Shallan's family, Jasnah, Amaram and Gavilar).  Even Dalinar hasn't acknowledged their existence.  If Amaram is heavily invested in dealing with them and they're willing to send Shardbearers against him he might every well need not only the plate and blade to survive, but the reputation of a man who killed a shardbearer without Plate and blade.(Speaking of which, I've seen a distinctive lack of Ghostblood theorizing on this forum...  Personally I think the Surgebinder hunters are related, but I can't say for sure because they appear to follow the laws of the land better than the Ghostbloods have.)

Moreover, his fight with them is seemingly important given their sinister choices, such as putting a savage, seemingly abusive and violent man like Shallan's father on the throne.  

[junior]

If Amaram is heavily invested in dealing with them and they're willing to send Shardbearers against him he might every well need not only the plate and blade to survive, but the reputation of a man who killed a shardbearer without Plate and blade

 

Ironically, if Amaram were truly the kind of man his reputation suggested he was, then Syl might have become drawn to him instead of Kaladin.  And then Amaram wouldn't need the plate and blade.

 

Or at the very least, not killing Kaladin's squad would have meant that Kaladin was still in his army, which would have meant that when Kaladin developed his powers and abilities, he would have been capable of acting as protection for Amaram.

 

So while Amaram's choice looked like the right one from a purely pragmatic amoral standpoint, the reality is that he probably made the worse of the two decisions no matter how you look at it.

[Moogle]

So while Amaram's choice looked like the right one from a purely pragmatic amoral standpoint, the reality is that he probably made the worse of the two decisions no matter how you look at it.

 

Unless Amaram has been responsible for, say, preventing the Ghostbloods from putting violent psychopaths on thrones in the past few years, saving thousands of lives. I don't think we can quite say that Amaram has 'probably' made a good or bad choice at this point.

[Aminar]

That depends on if you think Surgebinding is not nearly as useful as being a shardbearer.  That and I don't think Syl would have gone for him anyways.  Kal has been something beyond Amaram for some time now, in that he's never been nearly as restrained by politics, supplies, and the like as Amaram, so he had the freedom to walk his own path without endangering hundreds to thousands of lives.  Kal got to show real honor.  Amaram got to be trapped in bureaucracy by his position.(This is the advantage of being the little guy on the team.)

[Moogle]

That depends on if you think Surgebinding is not nearly as useful as being a shardbearer.  That and I don't think Syl would have gone for him anyways.  Kal has been something beyond Amaram for some time now, in that he's never been nearly as restrained by politics, supplies, and the like as Amaram, so he had the freedom to walk his own path without endangering hundreds to thousands of lives.  Kal got to show real honor.  Amaram got to be trapped in bureaucracy by his position.(This is the advantage of being the little guy on the team.)

 

This is a good point.

 

As for Surgebinding being useful, that's an interesting question. Having a spren with a knife to your throat at all times (they can revoke their powers when they want) limits your options to an incredible degree. Given the choice between a spren and an Honorblade, I think I'd go for an Honorblade with what I know right now, even if it results in weaker Surgebinding. A choice between Surgebinding and Shards is very undecidable.

Edited February 7, 2014 by Moogle

[Aminar]

And Shards give a distinctly huge amount of social mobility.  You're immediately the best warrior in a dudes army, giving you rank, prestige, and wealth.  Meanwhile becoming a surgebinder is going to cause mistrust and confusion in most places, at least during the time period the book is in now.  At the moment I'm pretty sure Amaram is much happier with his choice.  Later in the series, we'll see.  But I think Kaladin learning more about Amaram, and understanding that Light Eyes are just people too, would be much better for his character arc than going straight to revenge.

[laeelin]

What bothers me most about Amaram isn't what he did to Kaladin. 

 

It's the polices of his army.

 

1) Medics normally leave dark eyes on the field without even bothering to attempt to keep them alive. 

2) It's standard practice to put the untrained in front to slow the charge - even with the horrendous losses this causes.

 

For all we know he has been fighting to stop both of these for years... but they bother me far more than what he did to Kaladin.

 

I want to know more about what is going on, but things are looking really bad at this point.

[Aminar]

That's not Amaram, that's military pragmatism in the setting.  The same tactic was used by most medieval battlefields not made up of purely trained forces.  Give the peasantry/conscripts spears, throw them in front, and once the numbers go down some get in there and fight.  Most people wouldn't even see the tactic as dishonorable at the time.  It was just how war was done, and good writing onBrandon's part to show it.

[junior]

Deep down, Amaram is a pragmatist.  He wants to believe that he's a noble and honorable man.  And given what the vast majority of the Alethi nobility is like, it's probably not hard to convince himself of that.  But when push comes to shove, he's a pragmatist.  And he always has been, even back before he stole the shards.

 

IMO, the slaughter of the messenger boys - who were used up as fodder to slow an enemy advance - should have made that clear.

[hoser he/him]

That's not Amaram, that's military pragmatism in the setting.  The same tactic was used by most medieval battlefields not made up of purely trained forces.  Give the peasantry/conscripts spears, throw them in front, and once the numbers go down some get in there and fight.  Most people wouldn't even see the tactic as dishonorable at the time.  It was just how war was done, and good writing onBrandon's part to show it.

Yeah, sure.  It might be typical.  It is not clear that it is better.  Amaram is in charge, and could insist on more training and/or older recruits.  The Kholin army shows that there is another way that works.  Amaram knew Gavilar and Dalinar and could see it. 

It also reflects Amaram's approach.  He doesn't value the darkeyes, but he wants to make it look like he does.  He lets a few darkeyes shelter inside during highstorms, but lets them be slaughtered rather than training or leading them properly. 

It is good writing by Brandon to show that the murders he commits to steal the Shards and gain a false reputation are not inconsistent with his general approach.  

[Moogle]

Amaram is in charge, and could insist on more training and/or older recruits.  The Kholin army shows that there is another way that works. 

 

Amaram has no older recruits and was leading an army of soldiers too crappy to go to the Shattered Plains. The army was struggling to find new volunteers to the point where it had to draft people! Dalinar is highprince of a highly trained elite force which has no lack of people who want to join it. Comparing the two people when Dalinar isn't in a situation like Amaram's is unfair.

 

Amaram did keep his promise about using Tien as a messenger boy for a few months. And then recruitment was down, and they were out of reserve forces in a horrible battle, so they ended up using messenger boys as fodder. Saying it's Amaram's preferred tactic is misleading.

 

I agree with your general point that Amaram is pragmatic when he has to be and honorable when he can get away with it, but to say that he's not as refined in his methods of war as Dalinar is impossible to say until we see Dalinar in a position where he has to constantly fight with an army taking heavy casualties and has no recruits.

 

Dalinar's the one who's starting a war and trying to commit genocide in order to unify the highprinces. He's breaking the Codes (or at least stretching them) to do it. Dalinar can be pragmatic.

Edited February 7, 2014 by Moogle

[hoser he/him]

Well, I can't prove anything with the limited data we have about a fictional world.  It just seems totally obvious to me that it is self-fulfilling prophecy that puts Amaram sacrificing untrained, underage, undersize peasants and the Kholins with a larger (pre-betrayal) well-trained force. 

Amaram has no older recruits and was leading an army of soldiers too crappy to go to the Shattered Plains. The army was struggling to find new volunteers to the point where it had to draft people! Dalinar is highprince of a highly trained elite force which has no lack of people who want to join it. Comparing the two people when Dalinar isn't in a situation like Amaram's is unfair.

 

Amaram did keep his promise about using Tien as a messenger boy for a few months. And then recruitment was down, and they were out of reserve forces in a horrible battle, so they ended up using messenger boys as fodder. Saying it's Amaram's preferred tactic is misleading.

 

I agree with your general point that Amaram is pragmatic when he has to be and honorable when he can get away with it, but to say that he's not as refined in his methods of war as Dalinar is impossible to say until we see Dalinar in a position where he has to constantly fight with an army taking heavy casualties and has no recruits.

By not adequately training or effectively leading the peasants in his care, Amaram continually wastes them.  He then "has to" recruit more less-qualified prospects, which he then squanders.  It seems clear to me that by just taking a less aggressive stance for a few months, he could train his forces better.  If he managed the battles better at the beginning, his losses would be lower.  Either or both of those would lower his attrition rate and turn his vicious cycle into a virtuous one. 

 

Instead, he engages in a few small symbolic gestures to make it seem like he cares, while neglecting the darkeyed soldiers he is responsible for. 

 

I don't think it is really pragmatic.  It's just ignorant and lazy.

 

Dalinar's the one who's starting a war and trying to commit genocide in order to unify the highprinces. He's breaking the Codes (or at least stretching them) to do it. Dalinar can be pragmatic.

 

I understand that you think that Dalinar has to be taking a less strict interpretation of the codes and want to condemn him for it.  I don't get that that whole discussion is relevant to the current discussion about Amaram.

[laeelin]

I went back and reread chapter 1 of WoK.

 

Those who can fight well end up getting sent to the Shattered Plains to battle the Parshendi. Kaladin’s trying to get us into shape to go there, to fight for the king.

 

The real soldiers are all gone, Cenn thought. Off fighting in a real battle at the Shattered Plains. No wonder Kaladin wants to get his squad there.

 

That does make how they used the kids more understandable. It's still a stupid way to do things, but he might not have been given a choice.

 

“With so many wounded on the field, how can we think that the runners’ll come for us?”

 

“Squadleader Kaladin bribes them,” Dallet said. “They usually only carry off lighteyes, but there are more runners than there are wounded lighteyes. The squadleader puts most of his pay into the bribes.”

 

I wonder how much control Amaram has over things like that.

[Moogle]

I understand that you think that Dalinar has to be taking a less strict interpretation of the codes and want to condemn him for it.  I don't get that that whole discussion is relevant to the current discussion about Amaram.

 

I don't condemn him. I approve entirely of Dalinar becoming a tyrant. I hope he goes farther than he has and starts employing assassins.

 

My point is that Dalinar has not been in a position where it's hard to be honorable. Dalinar has had no one's life be at stake as a result of his actions throughout TWoK (until the end, where his honor gets half his soldiers killed). Dalinar has had a very cushy life where it was easy to be honorable and decry the terrible slaughter of bridgemen while lounging about and sipping on orange wine (but not too much because that would be against the Codes).

 

Amaram? Amaram's in a position where he has no soldiers and has to constantly fight because other people attack him and Sadeas orders him to attack other territories. Being honorable and not using message boys as fodder means death for him and the rest of his soldiers. He's constantly under threat of assassination because of his position in a secretive group which is opposed to the Ghostbloods (who wanted to put a psychopath on Jah Keved's throne, so +10 Moogle points for Restares).

 

The instant things get serious for Dalinar and he realizes he has to unite everyone against the coming Desolation (and loses his half his men), his honor goes out the window. He abandons all attempts to get people to become honorable by being a good example, and instead takes over the kingdom from Elhokar. Duels for everyone! He has to steal the other highprince's Shardblades so he can have a power advantage. And to me, this is the correct course of action.

 

You're condemning Amaram for using fodder to protect his more valuable soldiers and praising Dalinar when Dalinar has not been in any sort of situation where there is a need to use fodder. Dalinar's led a sheltered life in comparison to Amaram (at least, since Gavilar's death). He could afford to be honorable. When Amaram says that Kaladin doesn't understand the weights he bears, he's not talking about the difficulties involved in shopping for the right uniform.

 

 It seems clear to me that by just taking a less aggressive stance for a few months, he could train his forces better.  If he managed the battles better at the beginning, his losses would be lower.  Either or both of those would lower his attrition rate and turn his vicious cycle into a virtuous one. 

...

I don't think it is really pragmatic.  It's just ignorant and lazy.

 

Do you honestly think that if it was that easy, Amaram wouldn't do it? If it was as easy as saying "okay guys, let's take a breather and get everyone trained up", Amaram would have done it in a heartbeat. Anyone who does not have the intelligence of a chull would see that it was the easiest way to win fights.

 

If he could train a thirteen year old darkeyes into a Kaladin Stormblessed in a matter of a month, Amaram would be all over that. When Amaram trains good soldiers, they get sent to the Shattered Plains. He also can't take a "less aggressive stance" when his orders come from Sadeas and the other highprinces are constantly attacking.

[Gloom he/him]

I think the answer is more dependent upon on Amarams reaction to Kaladin more than Kaladins reaction to Amaram. If Amaram devotes himself to destroying Kaladin than Kaladin will probably end up gutting Amaram like a fish. On the other hand, if Amaram openly plays dumb, or is even conciliatory towards Kaladin, Kaladin won't be able to bring himself to taking action against Amaram. This could be a great opportunity to get more out of Moash as well. If Moash gets wind of the situation, how Kaladin reacts to it could easily affect their relationship for better or worse.

[Arondell]

I in some measure I understand, Moogle, where your coming from with your feelings on the kind of person Dalinar is and what you feel he should be doing, "...so much as it is possible to understand someone with whom I disagree so completely."

 

Indeed if this were any other world but Roshare I think your position would be stronger.  Fortunately this is Roshare and on this world Honor can give you more then simple moral standing.  On this world striving to behave with honor can actually give you magical power and a lot of it.(e.g. Kaladin)

 

What your essentially arguing is that Dalianar should behave in a way that will virtually guarantee that not only will he not get access to those abilities but he will also not likely be willingly followed by those who do.  You may feel that a leader striving to maintain honorable behavior is foolish and makes things needlessly harder but on Roshare if nowhere else I think it is more likely to get Dalinar the power he needs to face the final desolation.

 

I don't think Tanavast's instruction to "Act with honor, and honor will aid you" was just an appeal to Dalinar's rectitude.  I think it was advice on how to access the abilities and power that Honor's magic provides.

Edited February 8, 2014 by Arondell