Amaram: Redemption or Revenge

[Torian'Omil Stonespark]

It is interesting that everyone is speaking of Amaram as a misguided person, and I do not know what will happen if they meet, but the 2nd Ideal that Kaladin spoke was, I will protect those who cannot protect themselves". Amaram murdered men in front Kaladin who could not protect themselves in an act of greed. All of this eventually added up to Kaladin being who he is, but I do not believe Amaram is a victim of his misguided notions and I hope Kaladin does not see him in this manner. At best Kaladin should not kill him because it will endanger the lives of those he is responsible for now. 

Edited February 8, 2014 by Torian'Omil Stonespark

[Moogle]

Indeed if this were any other world but Roshare I think your position would be stronger. Fortunately this is Roshare and on this world Honor can give you more then simple moral standing. On this world striving to behave with honor can actually give you magical power and a lot of it.(e.g. Kaladin)

Imagine you are Taravangian. You can choose between being able to fly OR you can get tons of information about the Desolation as well as knowledge of the future. Which are you going to choose?

Hopefully the knowledge of the future. Kaladin can kill a few thunderclasts. Knowledge about the Desolation tells you how to kill all the thunderclasts.

Acting honorably got the Rosharans very little, ultimately. 9/10 people dead in Desolations, and more importantly, repeated Desolations. What Roshar needs is a way to end the cycle of Desolations, and it's quite apparent that Honor wasn't capable of doing that. I would not be surprised to learn that he was responsible for the Desolations as an 'honorable' way to fight Odium.

(Offtopic note: someone should just teach Rosharans how to worldhop. They can leave a token amount of people on Roshar, and evacuate the majority of people to a nice scarcely populated paradise. Say... Scadrial?)

The magical power is spiffy, and you have a very good point in that acting honorably on Roshar is bound to be effective sometimes. I think it would be best to have someone like Taravangian in power, leading the Radiants, and let him do all the decision making so the Radiants can have clean consciences and obtain tons of power.

Edited February 8, 2014 by Moogle

[vikorr]

I think a lot of people treat the 'is Amaram honourable' argument as if they were on earth. Honour is all of cultural, environmental, and personal....when you want to talk about a persons honour accurately, you need to discuss all relevant aspects.

 

On the cultural side we have :

- war and battle skills are a virtue (the best go to reclaim the Tranquiline Halls),

- The High Princes (and not Amaram) are virtual kings in their own right - Elokhars role would be easier to understand as, and is closer to, an earthly Emperor.

- Amaram is at the beck & call of his leige lord

- Amaram is left with the dregs, and all squads that become good eventually go to the shattered plains

- Roshar is a land of storms (yes environmental), mean it is the strong that survive...which means weakness is not a virtue (see again that battle skill is). Any form of weakness would be reason for loss of face / condescension / loss of influence etc...which could possibly result in the downfall of your family / invasion of your lands.

 

Environmental:

- the lands he looks after, are constantly being attacked

- he appears to be looking after all of Sadeas' lands, not just his own

- Roshar is a land of storms (this plays back into cultural)

- recruiting is going very badly

- he's still being attacked

 

Personal :

-  does he have well formed values that also account for cultural and environmental factors

-  does he stick to his values

-  what percentage does he give to his worth vs others, and is it reasonable, or self deceptive (I word it this way, because this isn't as easy a question as most people think it is)

 

As an example of why such things have to be considered - if your boss (the High Prince) tells you to 'get back Anciently Ours Passage back, it's our land'...do you has Amaram say :

- "No"; or

- 'Okay'...even knowing that you haven't held it for 3 centuries, and that doing so will cause needless deaths?

 

What is the honourable thing to do?

Edited February 8, 2014 by vikorr

[Yamahako he/him]

I think Kaladin will Duel Amaram for his Shards, and in the Duel reveal that he is a surgebinder, proving to the rest of the war camps that Dalinar's attempt to reforge the Knights Radiant is not in vain. 

[Aminar]

It is interesting that everyone is speaking of Amaram as a misguided person, and I do not know what will happen if they meet, but the 2nd Ideal that Kaladin spoke was, I will protect those who cannot protect themselves". Amaram murdered men in front Kaladin who could not protect themselves in an act of greed. All of this eventually added up to Kaladin being who he is, but I do not believe Amaram is a victim of his misguided notions and I hope Kaladin does not see him in this manner. At best Kaladin should not kill him because it will endanger the lives of those he is responsible for now.

All the Alethi Nobility are misguided. Most used Sadeas's bridges, which are a far worse offense than anything Amaram has done. Amaram gave in to the system, giving up his honor at some point. With the philosophies of his commander(Sadeas) can you blame him? I think we're going to see a wonderful character arc of apology, repentance, and eventual friendship here. Very similar to what Szeth will have to go through, but less severe. Remember, these books are about uniting before a common foe, not the constant backstabbing for power. Dalinar isn't Ned Stark. That's not the style we're going to see.

[Arondell]

Acting honorably got the Rosharans very little, ultimately. 9/10 people dead in Desolations, and more importantly, repeated Desolations. What Roshar needs is a way to end the cycle of Desolations, and it's quite apparent that Honor wasn't capable of doing that. I would not be surprised to learn that he was responsible for the Desolations as an 'honorable' way to fight Odium.

 

 

Actually the 9/10 dead ratio is not accurate in relation to the effectiveness of the Knights Radiant.  The only time we hear that ratio is in Dalinar's Nohodon vision which was before the Knights Radiant existed.  Subsequent visions I felt implied that the rise of the Radiants helped quite a lot.

 

As for the repeated desolations.  We simply don't have enough information about the reason for them.  Some sort of agreement appears to have been in place.  Some details can be inferred but the precise conditions or reason for the agreement are great big question marks.

[Moogle]

Actually the 9/10 dead ratio is not accurate in relation to the effectiveness of the Knights Radiant.  The only time we hear that ratio is in Dalinar's Nohodon vision which was before the Knights Radiant existed.  Subsequent visions I felt implied that the rise of the Radiants helped quite a lot.

 

As for the repeated desolations.  We simply don't have enough information about the reason for them.  Some sort of agreement appears to have been in place.  Some details can be inferred but the precise conditions or reason for the agreement are great big question marks.

 

I don't disagree here, because there's not enough information, but I will note this line by Kalak:

 

The battle had been so furious this time, one of the worst. The enemy was growing increasingly tenacious.

 

This is with Radiants. It seems that the stronger the forces of Honor got, the stronger Odium's forces could be. It seems 'fair' and something Honor would enforce. It sounds to me like the Desolations were just as devastating with the Radiants, the Radiants could just help with the aftermath (provide healing, knowledge, transport refugees to safety, create shelters).

 

I can't imagine that the 9/10 people dead figure became very small, or else Desolations would have been a minor annoyance every hundred years. A hefty chunk of your population dying every once in a while is a terrible thing.

 

But yes. We know next to nothing. Hopefully WoR sheds more light on the matter.

 

It doesn't change my point, in any case: Honor didn't stop the Desolations. A way has to be found to kill Odium, and it's quite obvious that honorable combat over several millennia is not a very effective course of action. I hope Taravangian or Jasnah figures something out.

Edited February 8, 2014 by Moogle

[JoeAgain he/him]

The Black Death killed 1/3 of Europe's population and its still infamous. Being decimated meant losing 1/10, and that word has become synonymous with devastating. So even if the Radiants reduced population loss to 1/2, the Desolations would still be epically horrific events.

I agree with the point that Honor did not stop the Desolations and may have in fact been a party to their recurrence. Perhaps,

just like Preservation couldn't destroy Ruin until someone new and sufficiently free from the trappings of Shardic Intent took up its power

, Honor simply could not defeat Odium.

[Sasake]

A little off topic but has anyone mentioned that the reason Amaram made it to the shattered plains in the first place might be because the border fights might of stopped.  Since you know most the worlds leaders have been killed by a certain assassin in white.  In that case most country's would pull back their force to consolidate there power.

[Aminar]

Actually the 9/10 dead ratio is not accurate in relation to the effectiveness of the Knights Radiant.  The only time we hear that ratio is in Dalinar's Nohodon vision which was before the Knights Radiant existed.  Subsequent visions I felt implied that the rise of the Radiants helped quite a lot.

 

As for the repeated desolations.  We simply don't have enough information about the reason for them.  Some sort of agreement appears to have been in place.  Some details can be inferred but the precise conditions or reason for the agreement are great big question marks.

This feels off. We know that the last desolation was 4500 years ago or so. We know that almost no written works from that time period exist. The radiants existed then, the Heralds mentioned them in conversation. At the time of the desolation nohadon experienced he had not yet written The Way of Kings, so I'm inclined to believe that while the Radiant's used The Way of Kings, they predate it.

[Natans he/him]

I think Kaladin will Duel Amaram for his Shards, and in the Duel reveal that he is a surgebinder, proving to the rest of the war camps that Dalinar's attempt to reforge the Knights Radiant is not in vain. 

 

I like your take on the matter. Sadly i feel that Kaladin will stay all the book in inner conflict. By one side he  will strugle to convince himself that me must tell everyone about himself  and for the ther side his mistrust in Amaram will make him afraid of tell the true to Dalinar given his friendship with Amaram.

[vikorr]

Sadly i feel that Kaladin will stay all the book in inner conflict. By one side he  will strugle to convince himself that me must tell everyone about himself  and for the ther side his mistrust in Amaram will make him afraid of tell the true to Dalinar given his friendship with Amaram.

 

Kaladin isn't going to have any choice but to reveal his powers once szeth shows up to kill Dalinar.

[Natans he/him]

Kaladin isn't going to have any choice but to reveal his powers once szeth shows up to kill Dalinar.

 

He could choice the easy way and flee like Amaram bodyguards did. Risk his life to save a person that he potentially mistrust (Dalinar if Amaram stay at his side) are a hard choice. Honor against vengance =)

[Aleksiel]

He could choice the easy way and flee like Amaram bodyguards did. Risk his life to save a person that he potentially mistrust (Dalinar if Amaram stay at his side) are a hard choice. Honor against vengance =)

 

Kaladin mistrusts Dalinar even before Amaram. And Kaladin has friends in bridge four who did terrible things as well, just think about Teft. Kaladin knows Dalinar is so far his best hope for a better life, he won't jeopardize it because of Amaram. Or it would be like letting Amaram destroy his life all over again.

 

edit: spelling

Edited February 9, 2014 by Aleksiel

[Gloom he/him]

Kaladin is a Windrunner. He won't choose vengeance.

 

Kaladin isn't really all that hard to figure out. He holds life sacred, and while I don't see him getting all cozy with Amaram, I don't believe that he will put on his red bandana and go all Rambo Kaladin on him. Instead he will more likely glare at the man and act civil and do what he sees as his duty to Dalinar. He will almost certainly warn Dalinar that the man is a snake and that he isn't to be trusted, their may be tension, and this may lead to problems between Kaladin and Dalinar, but Kaladin will do what he sees as the right thing for his men and his people, which is to remain in Dalinars employ and help him achieve his goals. I'm on the fence about whether Kaladin will share his secret with Dalinar willingly, or be forced to show his abilities in order to save Dalinar from Szeth.

[xbauks he/him]

This feels off. We know that the last desolation was 4500 years ago or so. We know that almost no written works from that time period exist. The radiants existed then, the Heralds mentioned them in conversation. At the time of the desolation nohadon experienced he had not yet written The Way of Kings, so I'm inclined to believe that while the Radiant's used The Way of Kings, they predate it.

 

Surgebinders existed before the Way of Kings was written by Nohadon. However, it is believed that the KR were founded on the Way of Kings. This would imply that the Way of Kings predates the KR. If we were to carry this further, this means that the Nohadon vision took place BEFORE the last Desolation.

 

Here is the general consensus of the timeline:

 

-Second to last Desolation

-Nohadon vision

-KR formed based on WoK

-Starfalls vision

-the last Desolation

-Heralds' Betrayal

-WoR vision

-Recreance

-Hierocracy

-Gavilar's Murder

-Present day

 

Correct me if I missed something. This is off the top of my head. 

[hoser he/him]

I would do the timeline as follows:

-Nohadon vision

-KR formed, WoK written, Urithiru founded during Nohadon's lifetime

-multiple desolations (Purelake vision could be here)

-Starfalls vision

-multiple desolations (Purelake vision could also be here)

-the last Desolation, Heralds betrayal

-splintering of Honor possible here

-abandonment of Urithiru

-splintering of Honor also possible here

-Recreance

-splintering of Honor also possible here

-Hierocracy

-Sunmaker

-Shattering and fall of Natanatan

Edited February 10, 2014 by hoser

[Pinpoint he/him]

There will be a formal duel after Kaladin's surgebinding abilities are revealed.

Kaladin will have Windrunner abilities and Amaram will have a shardblade.

They both will be given plate for safety reasons.

Kaladin will be getting beat up while in the plate and will decide to take it off during the duel. 

Although this makes it so he can surgebind, if he dies nobody will blame Amaram. It would be Kaladins own fault for taking the armor off.

This gives Amaram a chance to destroy the one who can undermine his power and creates a tense  life or death situation. Kaladin starts using his surgbinding abilities and woops Amaram's shardplated rear end. However after the beating he took while wearing the plate. it takes extra effort.

 

 

Its a big stretch but I think it would be pretty cool 

Edited February 11, 2014 by Pinpoint

[xbauks he/him]

I would do the timeline as follows:

-Nohadon vision

-KR formed, WoK written, Urithiru founded during Nohadon's lifetime  (I don't think it's mentioned anywhere that the KR were formed while Nohadon was alive. It's just mentioned that the KR were formed based on the WoK.)

-multiple desolations (Purelake vision could be here)

-Starfalls vision

-multiple desolations (Purelake vision could also be here)

-the last Desolation, Heralds betrayal

-splintering of Honor possible here

-abandonment of Urithiru (I couldn't find any evidence for this. Can  you point to me why you think this falls here?)

-splintering of Honor also possible here

-Recreance

-splintering of Honor also possible here (Since there is a vision of the Recreance I'm inclined to back this as the time period when Honour was splintered)

-Hierocracy

-Sunmaker

-Shattering and fall of Natanatan 

[hoser he/him]

I know nothing.  Here's the best I've got.

 

I would do the timeline as follows:

-Nohadon vision

1. -KR formed, WoK written, Urithiru founded during Nohadon's lifetime  (I don't think it's mentioned anywhere that the KR were formed while Nohadon was alive. It's just mentioned that the KR were formed based on the WoK.)

-multiple desolations (Purelake vision could be here)

-Starfalls vision

-multiple desolations (Purelake vision could also be here)

-the last Desolation, Heralds betrayal

-splintering of Honor possible here

2. -abandonment of Urithiru (I couldn't find any evidence for this. Can  you point to me why you think this falls here?)

-splintering of Honor also possible here

-Recreance

3. -splintering of Honor also possible here (Since there is a vision of the Recreance I'm inclined to back this as the time period when Honour was splintered)

-Hierocracy

-Sunmaker

-Shattering and fall of Natanatan 

 

1. Two inferential reasonings:

a. Nohadon talks about walking (from Abamabar) to Urithiru in the in-book WoK.  I think the Knights were involved in establishing Urithiru. 

b. Nohadon's parables relate to ideals including 5th ideal for each order.  If the 5th ideals were known, there were 5th ideal Radiants. 

 

2. Jasnah tells Shallan that the Radiants abandoned Urithiru before the Recreance (chapter 45)

 

3. I can't tell whether Honor was splintered before or after the Recreance. 

Recreance vision argues for after, but it could have been a future vision.

The epigraph before chapter 2 that says something like "Ten orders.  We were loved, once.  Why have you forsaken us, Almighty!  Shard of my soul, where have you gone?" seems like it could have been a Radiant after the splintering. 

Edited February 11, 2014 by hoser

[+Aletus he/him]

I don't see Kaladin dueling Amaram at all - he's not interested in the shards - or at least he wasn't. I mean, it's all very dragonball to assume he'd need to get even - but I think it will all go quietly, at least - no duels. 

[Torian'Omil Stonespark]

All the Alethi Nobility are misguided. Most used Sadeas's bridges, which are a far worse offense than anything Amaram has done. Amaram gave in to the system, giving up his honor at some point. With the philosophies of his commander(Sadeas) can you blame him? I think we're going to see a wonderful character arc of apology, repentance, and eventual friendship here. Very similar to what Szeth will have to go through, but less severe. Remember, these books are about uniting before a common foe, not the constant backstabbing for power. Dalinar isn't Ned Stark. That's not the style we're going to see.

I am sorry, but to do things because everyone else does them is not a justification for wrong...Amaram, knew he did wrong and apologized by NOT killing Kaladin. He murdered people to cover up a lie. The same people who risked everything to save his life, not at the behest of Sadeas or any other liege lord, he made the final decision. I am not screaming for blood, and I am not a George Martin fan (I just read a lot). But with the concept of being bound to honor I do think or wish to see Kaladin assume a mantle of understanding, because Amaram's actions were not those of survival or something any person of honor would do, but an act that revealed his nature in a moment of weakness (maybe) but he is flawed. As I mentioned, I accept the premise that in line with the ideals of his order Kaladin will not harm Amaram as it would put the 2,000 bridge men/soldiers he now has to protect at risk, but I believe what happens depends entirely on Amaram's actions.

[Chlehrma]

Kaladin as a citizen and 2nd Nahn has the right of inquest, a sort of judge session if a lighteyes does him wrong and he demands it. I doubt that applies to his spearmen.

Slaves have no rank

[Looter he/him]

Slaves have no rank

Kaladin nor the bridgemen are slaves at this point.  Kaladin was also not a slave until Amaram enslaved him, I would actually say that because the initial enslavement was a lie it is yet another flouting of Alethi laws and Honor Amaram has committed, he will of course have some battlefield laws that totally back up his actions but even that is just more twisting of rules so Amaram can claim he killed a shardbearer by himself.

[Gloom he/him]

I've yet to see Amaram claim he killed a Shardbearer. He alluded to it, and he hasn't denied it, but he hasn't claimed it. Why bother, he's wearing the Shards, it's obvious he killed the Shardbearer isn't it?

 

Anyways, I've my doubts that branding a slave the way Kaladin was branded was strictly legal even had he been a deserter. Fortunately Amaram has his stormwardens to back him up that everything was done in the right and proper fashion.