Dustbringers' Division Surge

[Bloodfalcon he/him]

I vote for none of the above.  My personal idea is that division is the ability to manipulate molecular (not atomic) bonds.  Thus, what once was a rock becomes dust.  In the case of the Purelake vision, I think the KR is a Dustbringer who uses friction and division to make it easier for herself to move through the water by reducing friction and eliminating the polar bonds thus decreasing the viscosity (resistance to flow) of the water. 

In the prologue of WoK (I have to say that now that we have a second prologue, Yay!) Kalak notices smoke an char marks or something, and comments that the Dustbringers did their work well. I assume there is some explosion involved. Maybe they make explosions by dividing certain molecules, but that isn't really the point. Atomic, molecular, it's the same theory.

[Shardlet he/him]

They may be able to cause things to explode or burn by manipulation using both friction and division.  It will be hard to say until we learn more about both.  The most we've seen on any surgebinding is gravity and pressure and we have really only seen a few uses of that.  We have not seen someone lash something to reduce or manipulate its gravitational attraction to the ground such that the surgebinder can lift or toss it (yes, we have seen gravitation be altered such that Roshar's gravity is completely overcome and Szeth alters his own gravity such that he is lighter.  My point is, we have not seen all that the lashings are capable of).

[The Rooster he/him]

In the prologue of WoK (I have to say that now that we have a second prologue, Yay!) Kalak notices smoke an char marks or something, and comments that the Dustbringers did their work well. I assume there is some explosion involved. Maybe they make explosions by dividing certain molecules, but that isn't really the point. Atomic, molecular, it's the same theory.

 

Ughh, Bloodfalcon I hate to be pedantic but tho every book in the SA will have a prolouge, only WoK has a Prelude, and this is from the prelude.  It's exclusive.   (Yes I pushed up my glasses and spoke in a nerd voice for this)

[Bloodfalcon he/him]

Ughh, Bloodfalcon I hate to be pedantic but tho every book in the SA will have a prolouge, only WoK has a Prelude, and this is from the prelude.  It's exclusive.   (Yes I pushed up my glasses and spoke in a nerd voice for this)

No..... this is good.... I need it to feel special again... Finally, I can relax.

[marianmi]

Surges can be used in various unexpected ways.

 

For example, my theory is that spanreeds work by somehow using the Division surge -- they need a DIVIDED ruby - the gem of the Dustbringers.

So I don't think dividing a Dustbringer's power with humans is out of the question.

[Scott]

I don't remember much of high-school chemistry, so someone should correct me if they can here but... Bonded molecules are typically in their lowest-energy state, and they require either additional energy or a catalyst to break those bonds and do something else.  It would require a lot of Stormlight to give the bonds the energy they needed to break.  However, once that happened, there'd be a whole lot of excess energy in those molecules.  An explosion or sudden increase in heat shouldn't be out of the question.  

 

Here's to hoping a chemistry person comes in and explains that better  (or corrects it)

[Stoneward]

I don't remember much of high-school chemistry, so someone should correct me if they can here but... Bonded molecules are typically in their lowest-energy state, and they require either additional energy or a catalyst to break those bonds and do something else.  It would require a lot of Stormlight to give the bonds the energy they needed to break.  However, once that happened, there'd be a whole lot of excess energy in those molecules.  An explosion or sudden increase in heat shouldn't be out of the question.  

 

Here's to hoping a chemistry person comes in and explains that better  (or corrects it)

 

Warning: This Post Contains Science.

 

You're mostly right. Bonded molecules are "low" energy, but that's relative; some bonds have much more energy stored in them then others. To break a bond, you always have to add energy, and then that energy + the original bond energy sticks around with the unbonded leftovers.

 

Those leftovers aren't just going to sit there, though; they form new bonds with each other. If the new bonds require less energy than it took to break the old bonds, the excess energy gets released into the environment.

 

Explosive substances have a lot of energy stored in the original bonds. When you break those high-energy bonds and the leftovers form into molecules with low energy bonds, you get a ton of leftover energy. BOOM!

 

How much BOOM is very dependent on which bonds you start with and which bonds you end with. If Division is only about breaking bonds, your explody effects are going to depend entirely on what you "divided".

Edited January 15, 2014 by Stoneward

[shadewolf]

Warning: This Post Contains Science.

 

You're mostly right. Bonded molecules are "low" energy, but that's relative; some bonds have much more energy stored in them then others. To break a bond, you always have to add energy, and then that energy + the original bond energy sticks around with the unbonded leftovers.

 

Those leftovers aren't just going to sit there, though; they form new bonds with each other. If the new bonds require less energy than it took to break the old bonds, the excess energy gets released into the environment.

 

Explosive substances have a lot of energy stored in the original bonds. When you break those high-energy bonds and the leftovers form into molecules with low energy bonds, you get a ton of leftover energy. BOOM!

 

How much BOOM is very dependent on which bonds you start with and which bonds you end with. If Division is only about breaking bonds, your explody effects are going to depend entirely on what you "divided".

 

there's also a bit of a cascading effect before the final boom, the initial charge serves to break a couple of bonds, which then release more energy causing other bonds to break apart till suddenly you have 99% of of the bonds broken, and that when you get the boom.

 

Curiously enough when I first heard of the devision surge, I was thinking do the dustbringers cause nuclear fission. And then I laughed myself silly, because that would just be to OP

[11thorderknight]

I don't think it's going to be quite that scientific. Any substance with "high-energy" bonds (what one would call chemical potential energy) is capable of releasing that energy if the bonds are broken. It might be very stable, but ultimately, it will trend toward releasing that energy. Us simple folk call such objects "flammable", and wood is a great example. It's very stable and durable, but add enough energy to it, and the bonds start to break. And once they do, you start a cycle of the energy from some bonds going to break others and releasing more energy....lather, rinse, repeat. This process is called "fire".

 

Note that, in real life, stone is not "flammable". You can shove it into the center of the earth and heat it until it melts, and it still remains stone, albeit in liquid form. It does not undergo any chemical change into simpler compounds and release heat in the process, as does wood. And that's a good thing, because otherwise our planet would have burned up a long time ago. The reason for this is that almost all stone is primarily composed of silicon dioxide crystals with various metals and salts tossed in, and silicon dioxide is about as low-energy a state for those two elements as you can get.

 

My point with all this babbling is that there is no natural way to get stone to burn. Therefore, the "smoldering stones" caused by Division can't be just a byproduct of chemically splitting rocks, the way smoldering wood might be a byproduct of chemically splitting wood. The fire to make the stones smolder had to come from somewhere extrinsic to them. 

[Swimmingly he/him]

I don't think it's going to be quite that scientific. Any substance with "high-energy" bonds (what one would call chemical potential energy) is capable of releasing that energy if the bonds are broken. It might be very stable, but ultimately, it will trend toward releasing that energy. Us simple folk call such objects "flammable", and wood is a great example. It's very stable and durable, but add enough energy to it, and the bonds start to break. And once they do, you start a cycle of the energy from some bonds going to break others and releasing more energy....lather, rinse, repeat. This process is called "fire".

Note that, in real life, stone is not "flammable". You can shove it into the center of the earth and heat it until it melts, and it still remains stone, albeit in liquid form. It does not undergo any chemical change into simpler compounds and release heat in the process, as does wood. And that's a good thing, because otherwise our planet would have burned up a long time ago. The reason for this is that almost all stone is primarily composed of silicon dioxide crystals with various metals and salts tossed in, and silicon dioxide is about as low-energy a state for those two elements as you can get.

My point with all this babbling is that there is no natural way to get stone to burn. Therefore, the "smoldering stones" caused by Division can't be just a byproduct of chemically splitting rocks, the way smoldering wood might be a byproduct of chemically splitting wood. The fire to make the stones smolder had to come from somewhere extrinsic to them.

Unless all rock on Roshar is actually hardened crem, which can burn at very high temperatures. Also, the smouldering bit could just be those various metals and salts evaporating into the air.

[Shardlet he/him]

My point with all this babbling is that there is no natural way to get stone to burn. Therefore, the "smoldering stones" caused by Division can't be just a byproduct of chemically splitting rocks, the way smoldering wood might be a byproduct of chemically splitting wood. The fire to make the stones smolder had to come from somewhere extrinsic to them. 

 

That is not necessarily accurate.  I suppose it depends on what you mean by stones.  But sulfides will burn and carbonates release CO2 when sufficiently heated thus becoming oxides (calcination).  So there are stones or minerals which burn when sufficiently heated.  (Although, calcination is endothermic).

[Stoneward]

Thank you all. This has been... SCIENCE!

[Macen he/him]

I really should have gone to college....

*Edit* Or at least taken more than basic chemistry and biology.

Edited January 16, 2014 by Macen

[Kersplattle]

Thinking about named swaords; after the KR abandoned their swords, how would those who picked one up (and retained it !) know what any name given by the KR for that sword, was ? The KR didn't stick around to tell them. So any names must have been given by the post-KR holders.

[Draconis he/him]

This is just wild speculation, but i'm curious.  If a Dustbringer can split molecular bonds, s/he should be able to split salt water into its constituent components.  If this were in fact possible would that mean that there would be pure hydrogen, oxygen, chlorine, and sodium.

 

Hydrogen and Oxygen in gaseous form would be highly volatile and the now pure Sodium would react with whatever water was left over, causing a flame resulting in a fairly spectacular explosion.  Alternatively, could a Dustbringer  separate the Chlorine from salt water resulting in Chlorine gas. 

 

I could, and probably am, wildly off base.  But if not, a Dustbringer could be the ultimate weapon in any form of naval combat.

[Swimmingly he/him]

This is just wild speculation, but i'm curious.  If a Dustbringer can split molecular bonds, s/he should be able to split salt water into its constituent components.  If this were in fact possible would that mean that there would be pure hydrogen, oxygen, chlorine, and sodium.

 

Hydrogen and Oxygen in gaseous form would be highly volatile and the now pure Sodium would react with whatever water was left over, causing a flame resulting in a fairly spectacular explosion.  Alternatively, could a Dustbringer  separate the Chlorine from salt water resulting in Chlorine gas. 

 

I could, and probably am, wildly off base.  But if not, a Dustbringer could be the ultimate weapon in any form of naval combat.

Except that every Surgebinding we've seen done so far has been at close range.

[Kurkistan he/him]

Except that every Surgebinding we've seen done so far has been at close range.

 

*Cough Jasnah coughcough* 

Edited January 16, 2014 by Kurkistan

[Moogle]

Except that every Surgebinding we've seen done so far has been at close range.

 

Except for that one by Jasnah. Her order has some ridiculous combat potential.

 

Edit: Damnit Kurk. Too fast for me.

Edited January 16, 2014 by Moogle

[Draconis he/him]

I'm mostly concerned with the mechanics of the surge itself.  If such a thing is possible then that opens the doors to different ways to take advantage of it. Naval combat may be a bit overly optimistic, but if any liquid water could be separated to form a mixture of Hydrogen and Oxygen gas then there are possibilities that can be explored. 

[Swimmingly he/him]

*Cough Jasnah coughcough* 

Still close range - they were in a group, and one was close enough to touch. If she'd Soulcast those men into exploding chlorine gas, the shockwave would have ruined her makeup for sure.

[Kurkistan he/him]

Ah, I'd interpreted "close" as "touch"; though I think at least a few of the thugs were a fair distance away when she got them.

[Swimmingly he/him]

For me, close is within 10 - 20 feet or so.

[Kurkistan he/him]

Fair enough.

[Shardlet he/him]

This is just wild speculation, but i'm curious.  If a Dustbringer can split molecular bonds, s/he should be able to split salt water into its constituent components.  If this were in fact possible would that mean that there would be pure hydrogen, oxygen, chlorine, and sodium.

 

Hydrogen and Oxygen in gaseous form would be highly volatile and the now pure Sodium would react with whatever water was left over, causing a flame resulting in a fairly spectacular explosion.  Alternatively, could a Dustbringer  separate the Chlorine from salt water resulting in Chlorine gas. 

 

I could, and probably am, wildly off base.  But if not, a Dustbringer could be the ultimate weapon in any form of naval combat.

 

Well, it doesn't precisely fit what I was saying (not that it has to).  I was thinking of bonds between molecules rather than bonds within molecules.  It is merely a matter of energy level required to accomplish it.  Also you would be bringing elements from an ionic state to an elemental state which involves swapping around electrons and such.  And it takes much more energy to get a cation to accept an electron rather than to donate one.  The opposite for a anion.  To me this seems a bit overpowered, but who knows.

[Draconis he/him]

Thanks Shardlet, this is what I was looking for.