DeadFencer Posted January 13, 2016 Report Share Posted January 13, 2016 So we know Sazed didn't want people to know about and use Hemalurgy, since he excluded it from the words of founding. Why, then, did he keep it? Why not just remove that magic system all together? If he had to leave it in for balance or something, he could have changed the way it worked to make it impossible to use. Make it so only atium can be used for hemalurgic spikes, then put all the atium deep underground on another planet. He could give the koloss, kandra, and Marsh atium spikes of he wanted to keep them around. I don't get it. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DreamEternal Posted January 13, 2016 Report Share Posted January 13, 2016 So we know Sazed didn't want people to know about and use Hemalurgy, since he excluded it from the words of founding. Why, then, did he keep it? Why not just remove that magic system all together? If he had to leave it in for balance or something, he could have changed the way it worked to make it impossible to use. Make it so only atium can be used for hemalurgic spikes, then put all the atium deep underground on another planet. He could give the koloss, kandra, and Marsh atium spikes of he wanted to keep them around. I don't get it. The shards have minimal influence over their magic systems. They arise from the passive interaction between their power and the planet, and while some minor tweeks like the creation of Atium and Malatium mistings are possible, removing an entire magic system is most likely not. Plus, you must remember that the intent of shards limits their holders. While holding two completely opposite shards gave Sazed some protection from being warped by the power, he cannot act against his intents unless throught increasingly indirect means, just like Leras had to use Vin to kill Ati. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Edgedancer he/him Posted January 13, 2016 Report Share Posted January 13, 2016 (edited) He probably couldn't, either because the influence of Ruin's intent stopped him or because he doesn't have enough control the system to change it that much. Hard to say without a WoB. And there was a much more elaborate ninja. Edited January 13, 2016 by Edgedancer Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WeiryWriter he/him Posted January 13, 2016 Report Share Posted January 13, 2016 The thing you have to remember is that the magic systems are not actively created by the Shards, they arise naturally from the interactions between the Shards and the planet they are Invested in. Maybe if he was somehow able to unInvest all of Ruin's Investiture from Scadrial (which would just cause problems) Hemalurgy /might/ cease to exist, but I don't even know if that's possible. Likewise Shards do not have unilateral control over how the systems work. They do have some wiggle room for messing with things, such as Leras swapping atium/malatium in for cadmium/bendalloy or Sazed lowering the threshold necesary for Snapping, but they cannot do what you suggest. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shardbearer he/him Posted January 13, 2016 Report Share Posted January 13, 2016 Well, Scadrial and the humans there were created by Ruin and Preservation, so that would probably be the end if Harmony removed the Ruin investiture. As others have said, magic systems arise from the interaction between Shardic investiture and the Spiritual DNA of the planet. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DeadFencer Posted January 13, 2016 Author Report Share Posted January 13, 2016 He wouldn't have to remove the magic system, just make it impossible to use. We know shards can change parts of their magic systems, since Preservation did the cadmium/ bendalloy atium/malatium swap, and Sazed changed how snapping works. Couldn't he just make only atium work with Hemalurgy, then hide all the atium, like I said earlier? 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
natc Posted January 13, 2016 Report Share Posted January 13, 2016 Preservation made atium mistings a thing and set up the mists to snap those mistings instead of cadmium/bendalloy. The metals replaced would obviously still work if you do somehow burn it . . . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moogle Posted January 13, 2016 Report Share Posted January 13, 2016 He wouldn't have to remove the magic system, just make it impossible to use. We know shards can change parts of their magic systems, since Preservation did the cadmium/ bendalloy atium/malatium swap, and Sazed changed how snapping works. Couldn't he just make only atium work with Hemalurgy, then hide all the atium, like I said earlier? Preservation didn't fundamentally change anything about Allomancy. Cadmium and bendalloy Mistings were still born - the only thing Preservation was able to do was, when the mists were artificially making Allomancers, was only make Mistings of a certain type. He was also able to create atium and malatium Mistings... but he never took away anything from Allomancy. We don't know how the Snapping changes work. Snapping is needed for the bit of Preservation in you to overcome the Ruin, so it might be that he was able to reduce the amount of innate Ruin every human gets, or something. But that's a far cry from being able to change Hemalurgy to make it unusable. Note that if he were to remove Hemalurgy, the kandra and koloss die. So there's another reason not to try. I think if Sazed was able to remove Hemalurgy without dire consequences, he would have. Because he didn't, it's a good sign it wasn't something he could do. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DreamEternal Posted January 13, 2016 Report Share Posted January 13, 2016 Preservation didn't fundamentally change anything about Allomancy. Cadmium and bendalloy Mistings were still born - the only thing Preservation was able to do was, when the mists were artificially making Allomancers, was only make Mistings of a certain type. He was also able to create atium and malatium Mistings... but he never took away anything from Allomancy. I was under the impression he did actusly make people be born as atium and malatium mistings instead of cadmium and bendalloy. How else natural atium mistings like Yomen could arise? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pechvarry Posted January 13, 2016 Report Share Posted January 13, 2016 You know, even if shards could remove one of their magic systems, I'm not sure Sazed would. From a philosophical standpoint, Hemalurgy is perhaps the one thing Ruin would want to Preserve. And I'm not sure Preservation would want to Ruin that. But, you know, what they said. Current evidence supports it's not really up to the shards. 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yata he/him Posted January 13, 2016 Report Share Posted January 13, 2016 Preservation didn't fundamentally change anything about Allomancy. Cadmium and bendalloy Mistings were still born - the only thing Preservation was able to do was, when the mists were artificially making Allomancers, was only make Mistings of a certain type. He was also able to create atium and malatium Mistings... but he never took away anything from Allomancy. We don't know how the Snapping changes work. Snapping is needed for the bit of Preservation in you to overcome the Ruin, so it might be that he was able to reduce the amount of innate Ruin every human gets, or something. But that's a far cry from being able to change Hemalurgy to make it unusable. Note that if he were to remove Hemalurgy, the kandra and koloss die. So there's another reason not to try. I think if Sazed was able to remove Hemalurgy without dire consequences, he would have. Because he didn't, it's a good sign it wasn't something he could do. And also Sazed will lose a powerful tool (not only Marsh). Without Spike, he can't comunicate with anyone (not insane) on Scadrial. He putted some effort to build something "usefull" for his own agenda with the Hemalurgy and I don't think that he will be happy to lose it (also without dire consequances) 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moogle Posted January 13, 2016 Report Share Posted January 13, 2016 I was under the impression he did actusly make people be born as atium and malatium mistings instead of cadmium and bendalloy. How else natural atium mistings like Yomen could arise? They definitely existed in the Final Empire. My own speculation is that Allomancy has a bunch of sDNA genes, and Preservation artificially crafted some and placed them in the population, allowing atium Mistings to arise "naturally" as the new genes worked their way through everyone's bloodlines. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AerionBFII he/him Posted January 13, 2016 Report Share Posted January 13, 2016 Harmony is probably the most powerful Shardholder in the Cosmere but also the most limited. So i imagine he is even less likely to be able to alter his own Eco-Magic System than the other remaining Shards. I find it interesting that his two Shards seem to conflict and hinder him more than level each other out though..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Voidus Posted January 13, 2016 Report Share Posted January 13, 2016 So we know Sazed didn't want people to know about and use Hemalurgy, since he excluded it from the words of founding. Why, then, did he keep it? Why not just remove that magic system all together? If he had to leave it in for balance or something, he could have changed the way it worked to make it impossible to use. Make it so only atium can be used for hemalurgic spikes, then put all the atium deep underground on another planet. He could give the koloss, kandra, and Marsh atium spikes of he wanted to keep them around. I don't get it. The only way he could give them Atium spikes is if he murdered about 20 people for Marsh, 2 for each Kandra and 4 for each Koloss in order to make those spikes. Given that so far as we know only one person has actively been using Hemalurgy so far (And most if not all of their victims were spiked with something that Sazed would be very unlikely to be able to remove from Hemalurgy) he'd be killing far more people than he'd save. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hoidhunter he/him Posted January 14, 2016 Report Share Posted January 14, 2016 All excellent points. If I may add my own two cents...I think we've heard from Brandon that Hemalurgy is possible in some form or another with every system of magic. It may not be possible to alter something so fundamental to the operation of investiture in the cosmere. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KnightGradient Posted January 14, 2016 Report Share Posted January 14, 2016 I've been thinking about whether or not Harmony would want to do that lately. I mean, Hemalurgy is an incredibly powerful tool, as we see with the chimeras. In minutes, Rashek had developed three different creations. In 300 years, Sazed must've learned about many powerful aspects of the art. Who's to say if he didn't use any of them? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Weltall Posted January 15, 2016 Report Share Posted January 15, 2016 All excellent points. If I may add my own two cents...I think we've heard from Brandon that Hemalurgy is possible in some form or another with every system of magic. It may not be possible to alter something so fundamental to the operation of investiture in the cosmere. He's said it directly and it comes up in the Ars Arcanum as well. Hemalurgy is considered very interesting Cosmere-wise because of the potential interactions between it and... everything. And Brandon has explained that it's the reason he came up with it, he wanted a universally applicable magical system. So even if Harmony wanted to somehow remove Hemalurgy and could actually do it, he'd still find himself thwarted by the God Beyond whose name is Sanderson. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stormgate he/him Posted January 16, 2016 Report Share Posted January 16, 2016 The Spiritweb can be mapped out by the human body. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Ninja Yodeler he/him Posted January 20, 2016 Report Share Posted January 20, 2016 All excellent points. If I may add my own two cents...I think we've heard from Brandon that Hemalurgy is possible in some form or another with every system of magic. It may not be possible to alter something so fundamental to the operation of investiture in the cosmere. That's what I was thinking. Ruin discovered Hemalurgy, but he didn't invent it. He just utilized a Cosmere wide effect for his agenda. So yeah, not sure he (Harmony) even has the power to remove it at all. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yata he/him Posted January 20, 2016 Report Share Posted January 20, 2016 (edited) That's what I was thinking. Ruin discovered Hemalurgy, but he didn't invent it. He just utilized a Cosmere wide effect for his agenda. So yeah, not sure he (Harmony) even has the power to remove it at all. Any Shard "invented" any Magic System. They arise alone through the interaction of Shard's Investiture and Shardworld where the Shard Invested itself Edited January 20, 2016 by Yata Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Weltall Posted January 20, 2016 Report Share Posted January 20, 2016 (edited) Yeah, the Shards don't directly create the magic that they empower (WoB) so while Brandon might have deliberately created Hemalurgy to be a Cosmere-wide system, in-universe it's just a happy accident. Or Adonalsium works in mysterious ways or something like that. Edited January 20, 2016 by Weltall Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yata he/him Posted January 20, 2016 Report Share Posted January 20, 2016 Yeah, the Shards don't directly create the magic that they empower (WoB) so while Brandon might have deliberately created Hemalurgy to be a Cosmere-wide system, in-universe it's just a happy accident. Or Adonalsium works in mysterious ways or something like that. Exactly also because the Hemalurgy is the result of Ruin's Investiture+ Scadrial Focus (metals). Without this combination, we don't obtain Hemalurgy but some other Magic System. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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