Other Shard Influence in Roshar (warning mistborn/warbreaker/cosmere spoilers)

[goody153]

Hi, 

This is my first post in this forum but this topic has been itching me all recently and i cannot keep looking for random WoB and rereading WoTK, WOR about it. 

Anyways it seems to me that Stormlight Archives has the most crossover between the ones i've read from Sanderson books(or has been spoiled to me by my own fault) 

• So with Harmony also sending his followers (what was it called 13th shard  or whatever ) in Roshar as an example. And Nightblood+ Vasher being there. How many other characters from other Sanderson books are there that i might have missed ? except hoid obviously lol
• I know that the 3 shards that exist in Roshar are Cultivation, Honor and Odium but with Harmony's selected individual in Roshar is it possible that other shards outside Roshar like maybe endowment or other unknown shards have been inserting people or influencing Roshar as well(from the outside of roshar of course) ? Who might they be if i ever missed them?
• If it's yes with the most meddlers from other worlds and Shards trying to meddle in Stormlight as well. Do you think they are doing it cause Odium is stuck and they just decided move sooner or maybe they have their own motive?

Cause with all the Cameo characters from other books it feels like Stormlight is like the big event in the cosmere universe especially since it personally showcases a direct involvement of the portrayed big bad of Cosmere Odium. So thoughts ? 

Edited July 11, 2016 by goody153

[Doc12 he/him]

Galladon from Sel (Elantris), Demoux from scadrial (Mistborn) and Baon from Taldain (White Sand) are the members of the seventeenth shard that show up in the purelake interlude.

Felt is a guy that shows up at keep venture in Mistborn and in the kholin warcamp.

Iyatil is presumed to have a connection with South scadrial due to the mask she wears.

Vasher and Nightblood from nalthis shows up, as you said.

And of course, Nazh from Threnody and Khriss from Taldain provide the maps and ars arcana.

 

Think that's about it

[Cartographer7]

35 minutes ago, goody153 said:

So with Harmony also sending his followers (what was it called 13th shard  or whatever ) in Roshar as an example.

I'm curious why you think the 17th shard is beholden to Harmony. Is there a WoB or something?

[goody153]

2 minutes ago, Cartographer7 said:

I'm curious why you think the 17th shard is beholden to Harmony. Is there a WoB or something?

Well i don't have proof for that i should worded that better but i just assumed they would be Harmony's minions since it had Demoux and Demoux doesn't seem to be the type of guy who would follow other shards direction. 

As much as Sazed is about his hands are tied and he aims to give people with the most options as possible. He does alot of manipulating and meddling so i assume he's not really beneath sending people investigating or meddling with other shards business. Especially that he and Odium know about each other. 

And afaik Harmony hasn't been exclusively been solely involved in Scandrial like Ruin/Preservation did, right? 

[Eki]

I think part of the reason that we see so many worldhoppers in Stormlight is that it's one of the latest series chronologically (almost contemporary to W&W Mistborn books), so we just have more characters and worlds that CAN show up. It's possible that there were more worldhoppers in, say, Warbreaker, but we wouldn't have met them before. (Though there weren't that many characters in Warbreaker, so maybe bad example) And, of course, Brandon hadn't invented as many characters before, so that's another reason why there would be more now.

And yeah, I don't think Harmony has any special connection to the 17th shard?

[Doc12 he/him]

If anything, the seventeenth shard seems to be acting on Frost's orders, as Hoid explicitly tells Frost to call off the shard in the first letter.

[goody153]

Quote

And yeah, I don't think Harmony has any special connection to the 17th shard?

Huh, well i just thought Demoux wasn't the type who would serve other shard but  i really info (which is why i post stuff like this anyways ) or maybe we don't know much about it yet. 

But there is certainly a shard behind 17th shard, right ? At least 1 backing them up or guiding them or encouraging them at least

[goody153]

And what about other shards that might be sending minions poking around Roshar in the first 2 books any hints about them ? Seems like there are awful lot of worldhoppers hard to imagine no outside may have given some interest.

[Cartographer7]

11 minutes ago, goody153 said:

Well i don't have proof for that i should worded that better but i just assumed they would be Harmony's minions since it had Demoux and Demoux doesn't seem to be the type of guy who would follow other shards direction.

Just because he's from Harmony's world doesn't mean he's following Harmony's instructions. People can act without acting on behalf of a shard. (Which isn't to say we know Harmony didn't send him, but we've been given no indication either way.) Plus, the members of the 17th shard being from other shardworlds is probably a sign that the group as a whole isn't doing Sazed's bidding.

 

4 minutes ago, Doctor12 said:

If anything, the seventeenth shard seems to be acting on Frost's orders, as Hoid explicitly tells Frost to call off the shard in the first letter.

Also this.

 

11 minutes ago, goody153 said:

And afaik Harmony hasn't been exclusively been solely involved in Scandrial like Ruin/Preservation did, right? 

Again, I'm not sure where you're getting this from. I could be wrong, but I don't think the novels give us any reason to think this, and I've yet to see a WoB on this.

2 minutes ago, goody153 said:

But there is certainly a shard behind 17th shard, right ? At least 1 backing them up or guiding them or encouraging them at least

Why does this need to be true?

Edited July 11, 2016 by Cartographer7

[Eki]

1 minute ago, Cartographer7 said:

Again, I'm not sure where you're getting this from. I could be wrong, but I don't think the novels give us any reason to think this, and I've yet to see a WoB on this.

Well, we know that something is trying to prevent Harmony from seeing beyond Scadrial, and that wouldn't be necessary if Sazed didn't want to see that far in the first place. Also, Sazed was curious as a human, and he probably still is as a Shard. I definitely think Sazed would want to know more about Cosmere-wide things, just from knowing who he is.

[Doc12 he/him]

Also, I'm pretty sure the name 'Seventeenth Shard' is meant to imply that they're a separate entity from the other 16 shards of Adonalsium. So I really don't think they're acting on the intent of any one shard.

[Argel he/him]

2 minutes ago, goody153 said:

But there is certainly a shard behind 17th shard, right ?

We don't know that, and I actually do not believe it. Frost seems to be the leader, or heavily involved (assuming their goal is non-intervention). If Frost is in charge, then his goalis to let whatever Adonasium has planned out play out without e.g. meddling by Hoid. Of course, unless Hoid's meddling is a direct result of the shattering, one would think Adonalsium factored it in (but then, maybe he factored in the Frost would reign Hoid in...). Assuming Adonalsium foresaw what was coming and planned for it (which Frost's letter strongly implies). 

The rest is a bit spoilery. Not too much so, but I do mention some non-SA stuff.

Spoiler

 

Speaking of Frost, he has never left Yolen, so he's technically not a worldhopper, but given the letter, you probably want to count him. He's from the unpublished Dragonsteel, so guess his (confirmed) race.... Which reminds me, I believe we have a WoB that we have seen a dragon in non-dragon form. There's also a female worldhopping Kandra, and I think another WoB implied there may be more than one Kandra worldhopping. We may not have seen them in SA though. 

As a side note, there is a Terris woman in Warbreaker, but it's so obscure we will 99% probability need to wait for Brandon to confirm or reveal her identity.

IIRC, Demoux's wife is in the 17th Shard and recruited him. So perhaps a harmony of a different sort.... I cannot recall if that is confirmed or speculation though.

FYI, Mistborn era 2 (W&W) takes place at the end of just after SA5. 

Back to the 17thShard, all evidence we have suggests someone pre-dating the shattering formed (or at least leads) them. I agree about the name suggesting they are independent. It's possible that a shard is protecting them. Or all worldhoppers, since we know there is a "colony" of sorts somewhere (presumably where Iyatil  is from, since she is descended from SoScads but not from there). There was a thread about it usinga Hitchiker's Guide to the Galaxy themed title -- something like the Resteraunt of the End of the Universe).  

 

 

[Cartographer7]

9 minutes ago, Eki said:

Well, we know that something is trying to prevent Harmony from seeing beyond Scadrial, and that wouldn't be necessary if Sazed didn't want to see that far in the first place. Also, Sazed was curious as a human, and he probably still is as a Shard. I definitely think Sazed would want to know more about Cosmere-wide things, just from knowing who he is.

The specific word I took issue with was "involved". I don't think we've been given any reason to think Sazed has been doing anything other than use his... passive god-sight, I guess you'd call it, which is a far cry from actually being involved. 

[Eki]

1 minute ago, Cartographer7 said:

The specific word I took issue with was "involved". I don't think we've been given any reason to think Sazed has been doing anything other than use his... passive god-sight, I guess you'd call it, which is a far cry from actually being involved. 

We have also heard about worldhopping kandra though. Not all kandra have to be Harmony's agents, of course, but still. I doubt Harmony would take much action on other worlds though, not yet. But I do think he's trying to watch, and learn. But I suspect most of his actions will be in the final Mistborn trilogy, assuming he CAN act at that point, and isn't paralyzed by the conflict between his two shardic parts.

[goody153]

20 minutes ago, Cartographer7 said:

21 minutes ago, goody153 said:

But there is certainly a shard behind 17th shard, right ? At least 1 backing them up or guiding them or encouraging them at least

Why does this need to be true?

Well at least at this one it's a bit difficult to believe that a bunch of worldhoppers banded together without aid of shard or at least manipulation of a shard might be able to do things seem freely as they could though i could be wrong and they might be in alot of trouble alot of times since we don't have much info about the group.
 

Quote

 

30 minutes ago, goody153 said:

And afaik Harmony hasn't been exclusively been solely involved in Scandrial like Ruin/Preservation did, right? 

Again, I'm not sure where you're getting this from. I could be wrong, but I don't think the novels give us any reason to think this, and I've yet to see a WoB on this.

I think there are a couple of hints from the books and from WoB that i came across  that sazed might not be solely focusing his energy in Scandrial after his ascension ( it's 12  midnight here so i can't make too much effort haha but i'll try to list some i could remember ) like this one

Quote

PALADIN BREWER

I assume Sazed does not know the metal used in Lessie's spike because it's offworld, but Odium seems aware of Sazed/Harmony. Why is this?

BRANDON SANDERSON

Odium has a lot more knowledge that Sazed, he has had the power longer, and there are forces purposely trying to limit Harmony's knowledge

Apart from the ascension knowledge he gained from taking ruin/preservation. I can't imagine that he gains knowledge by just not doing anything else unrelated to scandrial(and after his ascension Scandrial seems pretty chill apart from the rebuilding part which he prolly didn't have to worry much cause he literally made elandel basin too much of a paradise and especially considering he had no rival in Scandrial that time), he has to be poking around the cosmere or giving some focus elsewhere to learn stuff even if he isn't directly involving himself.
 

[goody153]

Quote

I doubt Harmony would take much action on other worlds though, not yet. But I do think he's trying to watch, and learn.

Yeah this. Not completely inactive but i believe he at least to know cosmere, i mean he doesn't really have an actual enemy at the time he became Harmony in Scandrial unlike Ruin/Preservation not having full rein cause they constantly stop each other from doing things. (well not at the current time of Wax & Wayne with Autonomy might be the shard bugging him)
 

[Argel he/him]

2 hours ago, goody153 said:

Well at least at this one it's a bit difficult to believe that a bunch of worldhoppers banded together without aid of shard

Except that's exactly how Adonalsium was shattered!! Additionally, we know both Hoid and Frost were involved in the plot to shatter Adonalsium and Frost may be the leader of the 17th Shard. He was good enough to plot against a god but not good enough afterwards?? 

Edit: Granted, stopping Hoid seems an impossible task....

Edited July 11, 2016 by Argel

[goody153]

Quote

Except that's exactly how Adonalsium was shattered!! 

It's probably more than that complicated. I don't believe that it was just simply humans who did it themselves just shattered Adonalsium without some intervention or even maybe some sort of betrayal if  Adonalsium had underlings or maybe a greater force was used or maybe even Adonalsium sabotaging himself or the humans who shattered him merely assisted him in a suicide of sorts. Or perhaps a weakness that Adonalsium has. 

As we have seen so far as long as the intent is in accordance to a shard, if a shard wants you dead and you don't get help(assistance from another shard like his rival/enemy shard or at least even a dead shard powers) you are most likely dead. I mean Ruin could've killed entire scadrial if preservation didn't meddle(and Vin doesn't count as merely human she's was set-up to take preservation anyways) even if people knew Ruin was trying to kill them without another shard stopping Ruin or Ruin stopping himself then they are good as dead, pretty sure Odium would've killed everybody in Roshar as many times as he want if Honor/Cultivation isn't there. 

I suspect Adonalsium is the same. There is certainly a way Adonalsium got shattered but not solely done by people.

Edited July 11, 2016 by goody153

[Argel he/him]

Uhh, Frost is a dragon and we know he was involved in the plot. So more than humans is already established. Additionaly, magic existed before the shattering. For example, Hoid uses Yolish Lightweaving. Is it hard to believe that 16 powerful magic users plus others (e.g. Hoid and Frost) figured out how to pull it off?!

[CaptainRyan he/him]

On 7/11/2016 at 5:38 PM, Argel said:

Is it hard to believe that 16 powerful magic users plus others (e.g. Hoid and Frost) figured out how to pull it off?!

Yes, it is nearly impossible to believe.

Mistborn: Secret History spoilers

Spoiler

The Ire are, presumably, very powerful Elantrians with some serious Cosmere-awareness and they were scared silly of Ruin - a single Shard. I do not think sixteen magic users, no matter how powerful, would be even close to a match for Adonalsium - the full power of all sixteen Shards. There is more to the story of taking down Adonalsium then a dragon and some magic.

 

[Yata he/him]

17 minutes ago, CaptainRyan said:

Yes, it is nearly impossible to believe.

Well, we don't know how much active was Adonalsium. A Shard is pushed a Mind twisted by an Intent/Mandate but we don't know how Adonalsium thinks... Maybe after Cosmere's creation he began to become inactive or comatose... Maybe the Vessels tried a lot of time to kill him but he wasn't uncapable or unwilling to stop them. In the end it's possible that Adonalsium itself wanted his own death to spread further his Investiture (I have a theory about a Shard who can't Invest over a certain treeshold of his own Investiture, and once reach this point Splinters/Shatters the Shard is the only way to further spread his Investiture ... But I have no proofs)

[Argel he/him]

We we don't have a good idea on how magic worked before the shattering. Was there one pool of magic everyone could dip into, vs. now where the limitation is to a shard or two? It's also lot easier to pull the shattering off if Adonalsium allows it to happen, which is what Frost implies in the letter (and again, Frost is a dragon, IIRC from a WoB, the oldest being we know of still alive).

And let's not overrate the Ire. Kelsier was able to fool them into believing he was Ruin. I wouldn't classify them as highly powerful magicians -- there's an implied "has a fracking clue" that goes along with that. Raw power is worthless if you be can fooled that easily. 

The Five Scholars from Warbreaker are better examples. And Nightblood is the only item we know of that reduces the amount of available Investiture in the Cosmere, and Vasher killed his wife to keep that form of a Awakening a secret! And that was from two of the Five Scholars. 

I don't have any problem imagining that if the top 18 scholars/magic-users got together in present time that they could wreak some serious shattering/detroy the Cosmere havoc if they wanted to (or maybe partially by accident).  Note: 18 because we know Hoid and Frost were involved in the plot but not the shattering.

The better question is why did they band together to pull off the shattering, and we have much less info on that.

Edit: OMG, I had typo'd a "Frosty" in there. I soooo hope Kelsier and Frost meet now. Please Brandon, make it happen!! Even if it's non-canon!! 

Edited July 13, 2016 by Argel

[Oversleep]

IIRC pre-Shattering magic was weaker than Shard-based magic.

Anyway, let's remember that a fraction of power of a single Shard is enough to push a whole planet around. Imagine what could a whole Shard do and then multiply it by sixteen. Shards are just in a whole another power-level category than human magic-users.

I'd say that even the person with most broken and impossible magic combinations we could think of would be easily destroyed by someone holding power equivalent to Well Of Ascension (I'd just say holding WoA, but Preservation and destroying don't mix).

[CaptainRyan he/him]

19 hours ago, Yata said:

Well, we don't know how much active was Adonalsium. A Shard is pushed a Mind twisted by an Intent/Mandate but we don't know how Adonalsium thinks... Maybe after Cosmere's creation he began to become inactive or comatose... Maybe the Vessels tried a lot of time to kill him but he wasn't uncapable or unwilling to stop them. In the end it's possible that Adonalsium itself wanted his own death to spread further his Investiture (I have a theory about a Shard who can't Invest over a certain treeshold of his own Investiture, and once reach this point Splinters/Shatters the Shard is the only way to further spread his Investiture ... But I have no proofs)

I agree @Yata, in fact, I wrote up a theory a month or two ago postulating that Adonalsium either became "paralyzed" by its Intents or became too focused on a set of Intents and that this led to the Shattering. My point was that no magic user or even a group of magic users could ever be a true threat to a full Shard, much less Adonalsium. There would have to be mitigating circumstances (Shard is paralyzed, magic users have the help of another Shard etc.).

 

10 hours ago, Argel said:

And let's not overrate the Ire. Kelsier was able to fool them into believing he was Ruin. I wouldn't classify them as highly powerful magicians -- there's an implied "has a fracking clue" that goes along with that. Raw power is worthless if you be can fooled that easily.

My interpretation of their "cluelessness" is two-fold:
1: They were unbelievably terrified about confronting Ruin because they know they are no match for a Shard and Ruin is a particularly terrifying Shard to catch the attention of.
2: It fit the story and Sanderson did not have the time to more fully flesh out their fear so you just have to accept that a group competent enough to build a fortress in the Cognitive Realm, develop a method of capturing a (Vessel-less) Shard, etc. were so terrified they could not think straight.

10 hours ago, Argel said:

I don't have any problem imagining that if the top 18 scholars/magic-users got together in present time that they could wreak some serious shattering/detroy the Cosmere havoc if they wanted to (or maybe partially by accident).  Note: 18 because we know Hoid and Frost were involved in the plot but not the shattering.

I, too, think the eighteen most powerful magic users in the Cosmere could wreak serious havoc... on people. A single Shard would obliterate them in moments; especially a Shard with an Intent like Ruin's. As @Oversleep said: 

54 minutes ago, Oversleep said:

Anyway, let's remember that a fraction of power of a single Shard is enough to push a whole planet around. Imagine what could a whole Shard do and then multiply it by sixteen. Shards are just in a whole another power-level category than human magic-users.

 

[Argel he/him]

On 7/13/2016 at 9:22 PM, Oversleep said:

Anyway, let's remember that a fraction of power of a single Shard is enough to push a whole planet around.

And yet Odium is stuck on Braize, being invested in e.g. a planet limits where a shard can go, the intents can hamper what they can do, etc. They're so powerful they have to act through agents/splinters most of the time....