Thoughts and theories about feruchemy

[Szmit]

I had some thoughts and theories about possible effects of feruchemical powers and I decided to share it with You in hope of some brainstorming.
Steel Feruchemy
(spoiler to SoS)

Spoiler

After Palm tricks with starting shooting,

 steel feruchemy seems more similar to time stopping than a speed travel. It seems preaty OP, because super speed requires also muscle memory, and certain responce to sences to maneuver. 
Thar would indicate that a steel ferrin with a lot of full metalminds just kill anybody with sword or knife.
Although in Mistborn 1 Sazed said storing it is more difficult than other aspects. That leads me to belive you have to walk or run to store speed. That would set certain limitations on tapping. Basicaly it wouldnt affect any type of movement than walking and running.
So in a sword fight you could move your position a lot faster, byt not thrust or cut with any extra speed - except of beter charge. Byt it would give you good way of suprizing oponnent, changenging beween long distance and short distance combat and backstabbing.
Pewter Feruchemy
There I basicaly wonder if a lot of pewter tapping can make you grow your bones larger. 
This is not completely irrational considering that tapping pewter allmost always causes growth of skinn tissue. 
Feruchemist are supposed to be able to tap metalminds at any rate and withought bone growth rapid tapping of pewter would change you into a giant swedish meatball.
The idea came into my mind when Sazed said that while tapping strenght of five men he was similar to colos in size. I do belive that he didn't meant size, but I realized - why not. Feruchemy and hemalurgy of strenghth seem to have similar basic funcrion - rip strenght out, and then give it back.
It would affect bones a lot lighter than hemalurgy, but it could anyway.
Enchanced Feruchemy - Spoilers to BoM
 

Spoiler

(For example by nicrosilmind)
Assumptions:

• 
  
• Wax didn't thought BoM were metalmind, but was sure they were aluminum because they were totaly unpushable(by steelburning).
• There is a limit of how much can a ferring store in a given amount of metal

• Metalminds are harder to push, but no one says they are unpushable
• Sazed filled once his ironminds completely, if that would make them unpushable Wax could make Iron bulelts against allomancers, because aluminum is super expensive.
• Amount of investiture in BoM was said to be exceptionaly high
• Creator of BoM could compound his ability for creating metalminds
• Ferrings used to be stronger before TLR, but they still can tap and store at any rate

Conclusion:

I belive strength of your feruchemy determines how much of atribute you can store in given amount of metal. Which is super usefull - imagine carrying kilos and kilos of metal just for a few days of increase strenght vs in one earing. Besides it is totaly parael to allomancy - how much there is investiture storeable/gainable bu possesing/burning the same amount of metal.

 

[Oversleep]

21 minutes ago, Szmit said:

That leads me to belive you have to walk or run to store speed.

Feruchemy doesn't work like that. You can be perfectly still and store speed.
If you want evidence, Sazed is not moving when he stores speed while imprisoned by kandra in HoA.

25 minutes ago, Szmit said:

Wax could make Iron bulelts against allomancers, because aluminum is super expensive.

Such bullets would be totally impractical as he would be wasting his weight which he needs time to accumulate. He's much better off with hazekiller bullets.

28 minutes ago, Szmit said:

This is not completely irrational considering that tapping pewter allmost always causes growth of skinn tissue.

Does it? Skin is elastic, it could just stretch. I suspect that if you tap too much pewter your skin would rip (as it happens to some bodybuilders).

30 minutes ago, Szmit said:

Feruchemist are supposed to be able to tap metalminds at any rate and withought bone growth rapid tapping of pewter would change you into a giant swedish meatball.

I believe I've a WoB that tapping too much pewter would totally do exactly that. Very theoretically you could also starve yourself to death due to tapping too much zinc.

Tapping pewter doesn't affect bones, only muscles. I'm sorry for tearing your theories to shreds

[Yata he/him]

Like Oversleep said you have no need to do something for storing an Attribute.

Many "hard to store" attributes are hard to store because you may store only a small part of that without hurt yourself or die.

For example I think (but I can't be sure without a referenceof the right number) once Brandon said that when a Feruchemist stores Strenght usually He doesn't store more than the 20% of his Strenght or he will be in some danger. I think "hard to store" Attributes have lesser implicit store limit (for example Health or Speed) and they are also Attributes who need to be used at hight multiplier to get their "wonderful" effects... For example imagine that you can't store safety only 10% of your health and to heal fast a wound you need to have (for example) ten times the standard human's healing... You will pretty fast consume all your feruchemical charge.

Of course I used the example of Health but Steel is more troublesome... When you heal yourself... the wound area is heavy influenced. while when you use Speed, your whole body is faster.

[Szmit]

46 minutes ago, Yata said:

Like Oversleep said you have no need to do something for storing an Attribute.

Many "hard to store" attributes are hard to store because you may store only a small part of that without hurt yourself or die.

For example I think (but I can't be sure without a referenceof the right number) once Brandon said that when a Feruchemist stores Strenght usually He doesn't store more than the 20% of his Strenght or he will be in some danger. I think "hard to store" Attributes have lesser implicit store limit (for example Health or Speed) and they are also Attributes who need to be used at hight multiplier to get their "wonderful" effects... For example imagine that you can't store safety only 10% of your health and to heal fast a wound you need to have (for example) ten times the standard human's healing... You will pretty fast consume all your feruchemical charge.

Of course I used the example of Health but Steel is more troublesome... When you heal yourself... the wound area is heavy influenced. while when you use Speed, your whole body is faster.

1. Do you mean steel ferring with knife could kill anybody? Or do you belive there are other restrictions?
2. Well moving slowly doesn't seem to be dangerous at all. If you move 4 times slower while reading a book you don't suffer much, worst case scenario - you get tired due to storing. Sazed doesn't tap much, doesn't have active live style, so should have a lot of speed stored when Kelsier asked him in Final Empire, not only 3 hours.

Edited July 17, 2016 by Szmit

[Edgedancer he/him]

To be honest, I'm still not sure why storing speed is hard (apart from meta reasons). From what we've seen of steel Feruchemy storing it should be similair to throwing up a cadium bubble that only affects yourself. I can't even think of any negative of storing 99% of the atribute, except maybe that the altered perception of time would make it hard to properly judge when to stop storing and that it may screw with how other attributes are stored but that's only a problem for full Feruchemists. Still all you'd need to do is set appart one day store "a bit" from your perspective and suddenly you have the power to stretch out a single second into multiple hours and all it costed you was a free day, you wouldn't even get bored, certainly a better deal than storing gold.

2 minutes ago, Szmit said:

Do you mean steel ferring with knife could kill anybody? Or do you belive there are other restrictions?

Well moving slowly doesnt seem to be dangerous at all. If you move 4 times slower while reading a book you dont suffer much, worst case scenario - you get tired due to storing. Sazed doesn't tap much, doesn't have active live style, so should have a lot of speed stored when Kelsier asked him in Final Empire, not only 3 hours.

I'd actually say that with storing speed you could avoid getting tired, because you effectively were only awake for 15 minutes instead of an hour.

[Yata he/him]

2 hours ago, Szmit said:

1. Do you mean steel ferring with knife could kill anybody? Or do you belive there are other restrictions?

I am a bit counfused, when Did I talk about knife ?

I just said that to obtain this wonderful speed you have to use Feruchemical steel with an high multiplier.

For example:

If it's true that Speed is one of the Attribute you can't store too much (for example 20% at best). You need to store 5 hour of Speed to get twice your speed for an hour (and to be quite pair with a Pewterarm in his regular burn rate) and 30 minutes of triple speed (like someone who Flare Pewter).

Of course once you began to use higher multiplayer there is some loss of efficiency and you began to have also other problems, for example Feruchemy protects you from acceleration but not from friction or whaterever hit you may recive at high speed.

This is just what I said ;-)

Of course a Steel Ferring with a common use (x2 or x3) of his Speed is dangerous but it's still on the level of other physical Enchanment. Above it became OP but he still have problem to solve

[Edgedancer he/him]

6 minutes ago, Yata said:

Of course once you began to use higher multiplayer there is some loss of efficiency and you began to have also other problems, for example Feruchemy protects you from acceleration but not from friction or whaterever hit you may recive at high speed.

Bands of Mourning

Spoiler

I'm sorry but things like friction are not a concern with using steel Feruchemy, otherwise Marasi little use of bullet time would have been utterly impossible. Frankly, it seems to just ignory pesky things like physical limitations entirely.

 

[Szmit]

3 hours ago, Edgedancer said:

To be honest, I'm still not sure why storing speed is hard (apart from meta reasons). From what we've seen of steel Feruchemy storing it should be similair to throwing up a cadium bubble that only affects yourself. I can't even think of any negative of storing 99% of the atribute, except maybe that the altered perception of time would make it hard to properly judge when to stop storing and that it may screw with how other attributes are stored but that's only a problem for full Feruchemists. Still all you'd need to do is set appart one day store "a bit" from your perspective and suddenly you have the power to stretch out a single second into multiple hours and all it costed you was a free day, you wouldn't even get bored, certainly a better deal than storing gold.

I'd actually say that with storing speed you could avoid getting tired, because you effectively were only awake for 15 minutes instead of an hour.

If that realy works as a time streaching, that means it makes you think faster, and therefore also does everything that zinc would do, and diffrent powers schouldnt overlap that much.

26 minutes ago, Yata said:

I am a bit counfused, when Did I talk about knife ?

I just said that to obtain this wonderful speed you have to use Feruchemical steel with an high multiplier.

For example:

If it's true that Speed is one of the Attribute you can't store too much (for example 20% at best). You need to store 5 hour of Speed to get twice your speed for an hour (and to be quite pair with a Pewterarm in his regular burn rate) and 30 minutes of triple speed (like someone who Flare Pewter).

Of course once you began to use higher multiplayer there is some loss of efficiency and you began to have also other problems, for example Feruchemy protects you from acceleration but not from friction or whaterever hit you may recive at high speed.

This is just what I said ;-)

Of course a Steel Ferring with a common use (x2 or x3) of his Speed is dangerous but it's still on the level of other physical Enchanment. Above it became OP but he still have problem to solve

Let's imagine: for 5 hours you store 20% of your speed, and lets say you can normaly walk 5 km/h, which mean you have hour extra of speed, so you can move in distance of a whole 5 kilometers that you can travel in any given speed, even in a split secound 

{Shadows of Self}

Spoiler

like Palm did 

so with a simple 2 hours of storing and a knife you could just stand less than one kilometer away from someone, in a split second run towards him, cut his throat, and come back to place where you used to be in the begining, the guy dies, and you even aren't suspected.

[Yata he/him]

@Edgedancer It's a WoB who say that (I will search it to report here)

In your specific example, the character has another attribute that allow those Speed without damage to the body (I think that a Full Feruchemist with his Speed may be OP but a Ferring without Healing or Heat Feruchemy may push the Speed not other than a certain degree.

The only strange case is about the SoS's istance, but I imagine that in this case the body isn't "standard".

@Szmit as I said, probably in your example, the people will burn alive before to reach the target.

[Edgedancer he/him]

43 minutes ago, Szmit said:

If that realy works as a time streaching, that means it makes you think faster, and therefore also does everything that zinc would do, and diffrent powers schouldnt overlap that much.

Steel giving you bullet time and thus more time to think is established at this point.

3 minutes ago, Yata said:

@Edgedancer It's a WoB who say that (I will search it to report here)

In your specific example, the character has another attribute that allow those Speed without damage to the body (I think that a Full Feruchemist with his Speed may be OP but a Ferring without Healing or Heat Feruchemy may push the Speed not other than a certain degree.

The only strange case is about the SoS's istance, but I imagine that in this case the body isn't "standard".

@Szmit as I said, probably in your example, the people will burn alive before to reach the target.

Spoiler

Gold could explain Marasi not completly breaking her body but it can not explain walking on snow without any dificulty or casually gripping and pulling on glass vials with her hands without breaking them.

 

[Eki]

I'm guessing storing speed would be difficult because it's dangerous to slow down much at all. Imagine if it also slowed down the flow of blood, for example.

Then again, that would probably make it dangerous to speed up as well...

[Szmit]

3 hours ago, Edgedancer said:

Steel giving you bullet time and thus more time to think is established at this point.

  Reveal hidden contents

Gold could explain Marasi not completly breaking her body but it can not explain walking on snow without any dificulty or casually gripping and pulling on glass vials with her hands without breaking them.

 

It should at most affect the cerbellum (part of brain responsible for movement and coordination), not all brain functions, because that would make zinc completely irrelevant. 

 

4 hours ago, Yata said:

@Edgedancer It's a WoB who say that (I will search it to report here)

In your specific example, the character has another attribute that allow those Speed without damage to the body (I think that a Full Feruchemist with his Speed may be OP but a Ferring without Healing or Heat Feruchemy may push the Speed not other than a certain degree.

The only strange case is about the SoS's istance, but I imagine that in this case the body isn't "standard".

@Szmit as I said, probably in your example, the people will burn alive before to reach the target.

I found the WoB, but I can't copy it, because I have it on another device, and there is something weird with my computer and theoryland. It says that speed makes you rezistant to most effect, but not air friction. But skydivers fall at speed of 56 meters per secound, and are completely fine - and even that speed makes you OP. If you have this much speed with a sword you would be unbeatable, even if you had normal response time to stuff (without f. zinc).

 

Edit:

@Eki

There is WoB that you coud store around 75% of your speed.

Edited July 17, 2016 by Szmit

[Magestar he/him]

I always assumed storing allowed you to live 1 second for everyone elses 2, and then tapping steel allowed you to live two seconds for everyone elses 1. (Or something like this.  Measurements might be off.   Basically going half as fast in order to go half faster later.)  Because it's just you living the two seconds, the world would still be moving 1, accounting for the friction problems.  However, it would fix the crushing things when you grab them problem.  When you grab them they enter your 'speed field'.  However, punching things would be too fast for them to do that, hurting your wrist because you are moving too fast, and the thing you punched would explode. 

Edit;  I made a mistake with the measurements.  Going one second for two would only make you go half a second faster.  Unless you are storing seconds, in which case you would gain all of it back.

There are a few problems with this, but I think it explains it pretty well.  There are so may problems with any of the theories involving speed.  Also, this would explain why you can store while not doing anything.  One of the problems is the overlap with mental speed, but I think that Mental Speed is a different animal altogether.  I think it has more to do with making connections faster in Realtime.  With speed, you would take just as long to make a connection, you would just do it in your 2x time.  Mental speed you can do in realtime, really fast.  I think it increases your mindpower, so with steel you might never reach the conclusion you made with stored mental speed at all.

Edited July 18, 2016 by Magestar

[Pathfinder]

Miles tapping gold while jumping down and breaking his legs, had them heal even as they snapped to the point it was almost not noticeable.

Spoiler

Marasi was tapping all of her abilities so the healing and strength would have handled her grabbing things without breaking her fingers, and increasing her weight would help with the slippery snow allowing her more traction. The only thing that the powers couldn't account for regarding friction would be her clothes ripping right off her body. I made a joke in another thread that maybe she considered her clothing so important to her identity that they stayed in place (like the typical loophole used in comic books for all speedsters like superman, the flash, and etc).

 

Now regarding storing the difference between zinc and steel. Zinc does accelerate cognition, but also allows for intuitive leaps that normally you would not be capable of (but it does not increase your intelligence), so it is not useless when compared to steel speed, just has different applications. I think the problem with everyone feeling steel is so OP is because every time we have seen it used, is the result of someone having the opportunity to store large amounts of it or using compounding. We do not often see the full extent of how long you have to store, and how much you slow yourself down to get those level of amounts. We've seen Sazed run great distances, but run through his entire storage as result. We have no idea how long he has been storing those. Then we see him burst multiple times for a few seconds at a time after being locked up by the kandra. We've seen 

Spoiler

Paalm bursts of speed are from another person who could have been storing that speed over years. We do not know how long it took to store all that speed. There are also theories that Paalm was compounding since she was switching steel spikes. 

Basically what I am going for is we do not know at this time how much time and how much you have to impair yourself to truly get that level of high speed for extended periods of time. Sure you could do multiple small bursts, but then you would be empty, and have who knows how long needed to get even that little back. At least that is my take on the whole thing