Knights Radiant linked to Heralds

[Assassin in Burgundy he/him]

So I was reading the part where Nalan gives Szeth Nightblood, and I was wondering, does each Herald have their own unique Order, like with Nalan his is the Skybreakers? If they do, can someone list all the Heralds and their corresponding Orders/Surges? I've figured out Nalan's is the Skybreakers and Taln's is the Stonewards, but that's about it. Can someone help?

Thanks

[KnightRadiant she/her]

You are correct that each Herald has their own order. I'm not very versed in the Heralds, but I'm pretty sure that Shalash is the Lightweavers. I knew Jezriens too, but I can't remember now. Either Willshapers or Dustbringers, I think.

Everyone feel free to correct me. 

[Eki]

Jezrien was the Herald of the Windrunners. Szeth used his Honorblade.

Oh, and Taln was a Stonewarden.

Edited July 19, 2016 by Eki

[WeiryWriter he/him]

Jezrien - Windrunners

Nale - Skybreakers

Chanarach - Dustbringers

Vedel - Edgedancers

Pailiah - Truthwatchers

Shalash - Lightweavers

Battar - Elsecallers

Kalak - Willshapers

Talenel - Stonewards

Ishar - Bondsmiths

[djammmer]

Although, IIRC - the Heralds did not create the orders, and weren't even initially responsible for them.   I think the spren created them in imitation of what Honor had done with the Heralds.  And also, IIRC - some of the Heralds were even reluctant to accept the orders (i.e. they didn't want to be related / associated with them.)

I had always initially though of the relationships between the Heralds & the orders as a very explicitly / formal thing.   But know I'm thinking it's a little more "squishy?"

[Erklitt she/her]

9 minutes ago, djammmer said:

Although, IIRC - the Heralds did not create the orders, and weren't even initially responsible for them.   I think the spren created them in imitation of what Honor had done with the Heralds.  And also, IIRC - some of the Heralds were even reluctant to accept the orders (i.e. they didn't want to be related / associated with them.)

I had always initially though of the relationships between the Heralds & the orders as a very explicitly / formal thing.   But know I'm thinking it's a little more "squishy?"

You recall correctly - though as far as I know, only one herald has been explicitly mentioned as having been reluctant to accept his order: Nalan with the Skybreakers. It's in the WoR epigraph to Chapter 43.

 

1 hour ago, Assassin in Burgundy said:

So I was reading the part where Nalan gives Szeth Nightblood, and I was wondering, does each Herald have their own unique Order, like with Nalan his is the Skybreakers? If they do, can someone list all the Heralds and their corresponding Orders/Surges? I've figured out Nalan's is the Skybreakers and Taln's is the Stonewards, but that's about it. Can someone help?

Thanks

Not to stop you from asking questions - they are always welcome - but have you discovered the Coppermind yet? If not: I'm sure you'll like it. Best way to find information in my experience is googling for 'coppermind' and <catchword(s)>, like "coppermind heralds" (works better then internal coppermind search) and the top result will probably lead you to exatly what you're looking for.

[goody153]

Wasn't one the heralds(Ishar or somebody) forced to like set rules for the surgebinders since they had no morality checks back then (Szeth is a perfect example of what would a windrunner seem like if he didn't have spren checks and the dude is misguided/evil/violent they could dish out some serious trouble) and so that was why the heralds created the orders for the surgebinders. And Nalan apparently was the last one to adopt the skybreakers since he thinks it's unnecessarily vain.

[Assassin in Burgundy he/him]

26 minutes ago, Erklitt said:

Not to stop you from asking questions - they are always welcome - but have you discovered the Coppermind yet? If not: I'm sure you'll like it. Best way to find information in my experience is googling for 'coppermind' and <catchword(s)>, like "coppermind heralds" (works better then internal coppermind search) and the top result will probably lead you to exatly what you're looking for.

I discovered it last night. I haven't had much time to check for stuff.

[DrakeMarshall he/him]

It is also interesting to note that the heralds seem to still be around in current Roshar... We have seen Talenel, Shalash, and Nalan. I am willing to bet that we have seen at least one other herald that we haven't recognized yet. I highly doubt these three are the only ones who will be involved in the story when all is said and done.

[Oversleep]

58 minutes ago, goody153 said:

Wasn't one the heralds(Ishar or somebody) forced to like set rules for the surgebinders since they had no morality checks back then

We don't actually know that. Syl implies that those with spren have morality checks and those without the spren (e.g. Honorblade owner) don't have. The issue of Ishar setting rules generated a lot of heated debate about what does it exactly mean, so don't take it for granted that he somehow made the spren use Oaths.

58 minutes ago, goody153 said:

Szeth is a perfect example of what would a windrunner seem like if he didn't have spren checks

While it's true, it's due to the fact that anybody can pick up a Honorblade and Honorblade grants the owner Surgebinding. But anybody who attracts the spren must have correct attitude/behavior/state of mind, must be following a specific set of ideals (like Windrunners have leading/protecting for their attributes) and must swear Oaths to advance.

[djammmer]

Big ah-ha moment for me (I'm sure others already get it.)   Heralds didn't have morality rules tied to their power... But the KRs did.  Heralds didn't create the powers for the KRs, the spren did.  The spren did it in imitation of the Heralds.  Something/someone (maybe Ishar, maybe Stormfather, maybe Honor) built in morality checks (or at least behavior checks) into the KRs powers, via their links w/ Spren.

So a few question -

1) Were KRs in previous desolations, or is this the first desolation? 

2) Who decided the KRs couldn't be as free-willed with their powers as the heralds, and they needed more discipline?

 

And ironically - even if it was stormfather, who instigated the morality rules, seems the spren decide to go against his rules on and off anyway (i.e. pattern & Syl both bonding to humans, even though they both said it was against the rules.)

 

[Erklitt she/her]

8 minutes ago, Drake Marshall said:

It is also interesting to note that the heralds seem to still be around in current Roshar... We have seen Talenel, Shalash, and Nalan. I am willing to bet that we have seen at least one other herald that we haven't recognized yet. I highly doubt these three are the only ones who will be involved in the story when all is said and done.

There are wide-spread theories that we've seen Kelek and Jezrien, too, both at the feast where Gavilar was killed. In WoR, Jasnah listens while 'Darkness' (Nalan) talks to someone else, who's worried about 'getting worse' ("Shalash is getting worse... am I getting worse?") who is supposed to be Kelek. He talks about "That creature (Szeth) has my Lord's (Jezrien) own blade" which makes him likely a herald, and as he is obviously neither Taln nor Nalan nor Jezrien and doesn't fit Ishar's description, that would make him Kelek. Jezrien is more dubious: In WoK, Szeth passes a drunken beggar. In WoR Nalan exclaims at some point (quoted from memory): "Praise to Yesier - if he ever stops drooling". Not very compelling evidence, but there it is...

9 minutes ago, djammmer said:

Big ah-ha moment for me (I'm sure others already get it.)   Heralds didn't have morality rules tied to their power... But the KRs did.  Heralds didn't create the powers for the KRs, the spren did.  The spren did it in imitation of the Heralds.  Something/someone (maybe Ishar, maybe Stormfather, maybe Honor) built in morality checks (or at least behavior checks) into the KRs powers, via their links w/ Spren.

So a few question -

1) Were KRs in previous desolations, or is this the first desolation? 

2) Who decided the KRs couldn't be as free-willed with their powers as the heralds, and they needed more discipline?

 

And ironically - even if it was stormfather, who instigated the morality rules, seems the spren decide to go against his rules on and off anyway (i.e. pattern & Syl both bonding to humans, even though they both said it was against the rules.)

 

1) I have no idea... I think we have hardly any information about former desolations apart from the fact that they happened, and the scant memories of heralds we have seen.

2) Though @Oversleep warned against reading too much into it, there is that paragraph in WoR (Epigraph to Chapter 42) where Ishar demanded the KR be bound by precepts and laws, or he would destroy them all. If the Stormfather has anything to do with it, I would suspect that concerned only the rules of Honorspren, whom he considers his children and who seem indeed more rigid in an ethical sense then other spren. I don't think he would concern himself much with Cultivation's spren....

[Emerald101 he/him]

Brandon has also hinted that we see Jezrien in WoK (source), but we've got no confirmation on the beggar Szeth sees being him.

[Blightsong he/him]

4 hours ago, goody153 said:

Wasn't one the heralds(Ishar or somebody) forced to like set rules for the surgebinders since they had no morality checks back then (Szeth is a perfect example of what would a windrunner seem like if he didn't have spren checks and the dude is misguided/evil/violent they could dish out some serious trouble) and so that was why the heralds created the orders for the surgebinders. And Nalan apparently was the last one to adopt the skybreakers since he thinks it's unnecessarily vain.

I got confirmation that the oaths of the spren were not consciously chosen at the Oddesey Con signing.

 

Me: Were the oaths of the Knights radiant consciously chosen, or did they happen naturally.

 

Brandon: *apprehension*. This is one of those vague ones in that yes and no. They are a natural outgrowth of the spren, but the spren are a natural outgrowth of human's perception of natural forces, but the spren are sentient, so I would say it's a little more by instinct than not. For example to Knights Radiant in the same order might speak the words differently, but the concept is the same. You will see this happen in a future book, where a Windrunner will speak the oaths. It's a slightly different take on the same concept. Some are moreso, like Shallan's oaths are very individualized truths, so.

 

 

[Oversleep]

14 minutes ago, Blightsong said:

I got confirmation that the oaths of the spren were not consciously chosen at the Oddesey Con signing.

14 minutes ago, Blightsong said:

They are a natural outgrowth of the spren,

Finally we know for sure that Ishar had nothing to do with that. Could you provide the source, so I can link it when somebody brings up Ishar?

[DrakeMarshall he/him]

5 hours ago, djammmer said:

1) Were KRs in previous desolations, or is this the first desolation?

If you are asking if the knights radiant were present in desolations before the one we witness in WoR... Yes the most certainly were, Dalinar saw visions of them fighting in previous desolations. Plus, in the prologue of WoK, I remember Kelek noticed some blasted out parts of rocks and the book said this was where surgebinders had fought. Kelek had said something along the lines of "the dustbringers did their job well."

So yes the knights radiant were definitely in previous desolations. I believe they probably were formed very soon after the heralds were. Possibly both were formed in response to the very first desolation, the heralds first and then the various orders of knights radiant beneath them?

[CaptainRyan he/him]

2 minutes ago, Drake Marshall said:

Possibly both were formed in response to the very first desolation, the heralds first and then the various orders of knights radiant beneath them?

While I do not know the answer to this my personal reading of the books/WoBs that we have is that Surgebinders (note: not Knights Radiant) came sometime after the Heralds; as in, there was one (or more) desolations with only Heralds before the spren began copying the Surges. Then, in my interpretation, there was one (or more) desolations with Heralds and unaffiliated Surgebinders before, finally, some order (pun intended) was imposed on the Surgebinders and they became Knights Radiant.

As I said though, this is simply my interpretation of the information we have and is subject to correction with either new information or old information I have forgotten/not seen haha

[DrakeMarshall he/him]

Perhaps. But certainly the heralds came first and the knights radiant followed not too long after.

I can see how it may be however that surgebinders cropped up first, and then the heralds organized them into orders of radiants underneath themselves... This is probably how it happened.

One way or another I suspect the history of the heralds will be quite important in the next few books.

[goody153]

21 hours ago, Oversleep said:

We don't actually know that. Syl implies that those with spren have morality checks and those without the spren (e.g. Honorblade owner) don't have. The issue of Ishar setting rules generated a lot of heated debate about what does it exactly mean, so don't take it for granted that he somehow made the spren use Oaths.

While it's true, it's due to the fact that anybody can pick up a Honorblade and Honorblade grants the owner Surgebinding. But anybody who attracts the spren must have correct attitude/behavior/state of mind, must be following a specific set of ideals (like Windrunners have leading/protecting for their attributes) and must swear Oaths to advance.

I'm just making a comparison on the Honorblade part with Szeth . I'm just saying it will be like if somebody who is murderous or evil takes hold of a windrunners ability without the morality checks

 

Found the epigraph with Ishar about Knights Radiant

"But as for Ishi’Elin, his was the part most important at their inception; he readily understood the implications of Surges being granted to men, and caused organization to be thrust upon them; as having too great power, he let it be known that he would destroy each and every one, unless they agreed to be bound by precepts and laws."

The oaths might have been added later and earlier the spren are just attracted to whoever it was that was representing their trait but much more lenient version than the new ones where they literally die and the radiants lose power if they break their oath. Since it seems like the order of the knight radiants are literally based upon what each herald represents.

And besides the oaths being added afterwards or something was done to the sprens to create morality checks couldn't be farfetched since Honor was still alive that time.

[DrakeMarshall he/him]

Hm... I don't actually think that Ishi'Elin actually put in place the system which makes radiants lose their abilities if they break their oaths. The nahel bond requires the oaths I think, so I would guess this was always a feature of surgebinding without an honor blade. Rather, I would guess that Ishi'Elin organized the various surgebinders into what we now know as the knights radiant. This organization undoubtedly had more rules than just each group's oaths... After all, windrunners and skybreakers could get in an all out fight and still each be following their own oaths (WoR notes a time they did indeed have a dispute though it did not escalate). I suspect that Ishi'Elin imposed additional organization on the surgebinders, forming them into the orders of knights radiant, which would be made to work together, and to answer to the heralds.

Edited July 20, 2016 by Drake Marshall

[CaptainRyan he/him]

5 minutes ago, Drake Marshall said:

This organization undoubtedly had more rules than just each group's oaths... After all, windrunners and skybreakers could get in an all out fight and still each be following their own oaths (WoR notes a time they did have a dispute)

I would be hesitant to label a dispute an "all out fight". A dispute could be merely a verbal altercation involving harsh words, threats etc. whereas an "all out fight" would be the two Orders summoning Shardblades and literally fighting no?

Also, note what WeiryWriter said here:

On 7/19/2016 at 8:37 AM, WeiryWriter said:

Ishar - Bondsmiths

The Patron Herald of the Bondsmiths threatened to end them - perhaps he does have the power to sever their bonds or prevent new bonds?

[DrakeMarshall he/him]

Yes, an altercation isn't all out fighting... This is sort of what I am getting at. There were tensions between the orders, but the fact that they were organized into the knights radiant instead of just a bunch of individual surgebinders prevented problems like that from being a concern. It held the various orders together, which a bondsmith would certainly care about.

 

As for having the power to sever bonds... It is possible Ishar (and all bondsmiths) did have this power yes. It is also perhaps possible that the heralds simply were powerful enough to destroy the untrained radiants that were first appearing in a regular fight, but it does make sense that Ishar had some particular power over the nahel bond.

[Oversleep]

35 minutes ago, CaptainRyan said:

The Patron Herald of the Bondsmiths threatened to end them - perhaps he does have the power to sever their bonds or prevent new bonds?

I'd rather say that he meant killing them all - with thousands of years of battle experience Heralds would slaughter the Radiants like sheep.

3 hours ago, goody153 said:

The oaths might have been added later and earlier the spren are just attracted to whoever it was that was representing their trait but much more lenient version than the new ones where they literally die and the radiants lose power if they break their oath.

They were not. In this very topic there was a WoB quoted on that:

20 hours ago, Blightsong said:

I got confirmation that the oaths of the spren were not consciously chosen at the Oddesey Con signing.

Me: Were the oaths of the Knights radiant consciously chosen, or did they happen naturally.

Brandon: *apprehension*. This is one of those vague ones in that yes and no. They are a natural outgrowth of the spren, but the spren are a natural outgrowth of human's perception of natural forces, but the spren are sentient, so I would say it's a little more by instinct than not. For example to Knights Radiant in the same order might speak the words differently, but the concept is the same. You will see this happen in a future book, where a Windrunner will speak the oaths. It's a slightly different take on the same concept. Some are moreso, like Shallan's oaths are very individualized truths, so.

[Emerald101 he/him]

@Oversleep

We have no way of knowing if the Heralds had "thousands of years" of experience before the epigraph with Ishar takes place. It's pretty clear from the books that the Heralds came first (first surgbinders came from spren figuring out what Honor did with the Heralds), but It's extremely vague about the length of the time gap there. Moreover, from what we've seen of Honorblades, they're weaker than the Nahel bond, not stronger. Even if the Ishar had thousands of years of experience, I highly doubt that would outweigh the increased stormlight efficiency of dozens (if not hundreds) of KR, especially considering the Windrunners, who gain enhanced battle capabilities from the Nahel Bond. "Slaughter the Radiants like sheep" is definitely a gross overstatement. The only way that Ishar would be able to back up the threat he made would be using either some Bondsmith-specific power to break their Nahel bonds, or some kind of special Herald power that we don't know about.

Edited July 20, 2016 by Emerald101
formatting

[Releaser]

On 7/19/2016 at 8:07 AM, Assassin in Burgundy said:

So I was reading the part where Nalan gives Szeth Nightblood, and I was wondering, does each Herald have their own unique Order, like with Nalan his is the Skybreakers? If they do, can someone list all the Heralds and their corresponding Orders/Surges? I've figured out Nalan's is the Skybreakers and Taln's is the Stonewards, but that's about it. Can someone help?

Thanks

 

That may help.

On 7/19/2016 at 11:00 AM, Erklitt said:

There are wide-spread theories that we've seen Kelek and Jezrien, too, both at the feast where Gavilar was killed. In WoR, Jasnah listens while 'Darkness' (Nalan) talks to someone else, who's worried about 'getting worse' ("Shalash is getting worse... am I getting worse?") who is supposed to be Kelek. He talks about "That creature (Szeth) has my Lord's (Jezrien) own blade" which makes him likely a herald, and as he is obviously neither Taln nor Nalan nor Jezrien and doesn't fit Ishar's description, that would make him Kelek. Jezrien is more dubious: In WoK, Szeth passes a drunken beggar. In WoR Nalan exclaims at some point (quoted from memory): "Praise to Yesier - if he ever stops drooling". Not very compelling evidence, but there it is...

I am a big fan of the theory that every herald (besides Taln) was at that Parshendi treaty signing feast.