Long Game 24: The Godless City

[Master Elodin]

34 minutes ago, little wilson said:

A ridiculous gamble to make with someone who's confessed to wanting to kill all the villagers. If you have to kill the villagers to win, you are not neutral.

Not true. I have to kill all non-Jeskeri. Assuming that I'm telling the truth, the village can still win with us, seeing as its the village in that case is also Jeskeri.

Edited August 6, 2016 by Master Elodin

[Elenion he/him]

5 minutes ago, Master Elodin said:

Not true. I have to kill all non-Jeskeri. Assuming that I'm telling the truth, the village can still win with us, seeing as its the village in that case is also Jeskeri.

You're assuming that the village keeps their win con if converted, and if you're N-E like I suspect then that's not the case. The only other way you could do it is to kill all elims and convert all villagers, but killing the elims would involve killing villagers and they wouldn't win. The only way you're helpful to us is if you follow our lead.

[Master Elodin]

11 minutes ago, Elenion said:

You're assuming that the village keeps their win con if converted, and if you're N-E like I suspect then that's not the case. The only other way you could do it is to kill all elims and convert all villagers, but killing the elims would involve killing villagers and they wouldn't win. The only way you're helpful to us is if you follow our lead.

But they keep both alignments and therefore have both wincons. Just like LG22.

[Arrae]

This post from D3 jumped out at me as being slightly defensive of Magestar. Dula scan =/= village. Dula scan = non-eliminator, if the scanner tells the truth.

I say we kill Elodin to reveal the Jeskeri. Why? Several reasons.

First, Joe will not answer any questions about secret roles until they are revealed. He won't answer anything we ask about Jeskeri until they become officially known to us.

Second, Joe will not post clarifications to questions inthread if it conflicts with misinformation people deliberately spread around. He also will neither confirm nor deny WoJs that people claimed he made. I suspect that Joe will not answer questions if it conflicts with misinformation people deliberately spread around, inthread or in a GM PM. @The Only Joe, can you confirm this? It is very easy for the Jeskeri to spread misinformation about themselves, and it is easier for them to spread that misinformation if they aren't officially known to us.

Tl;dr: kill Elodin so it's harder for the Jeskeri to trick us.

[Elenion he/him]

Just now, Master Elodin said:

But they keep both alignments and therefore have both wincons. Just like LG22.

Can you give us an inactive Jeskeri to lynch? I want to see if we can definitively tell whether you're neutral or N-E.

1 minute ago, Arraenae said:

Tl;dr: kill Elodin so it's harder for the Jeskeri to trick us.

That's always an option if we can't come to an agreement, but if we can ally with Elodin I'd prefer that route.

[Master Elodin]

11 minutes ago, Elenion said:

Can you give us an inactive Jeskeri to lynch? I want to see if we can definitively tell whether you're neutral or N-E.

That's always an option if we can't come to an agreement, but if we can ally with Elodin I'd prefer that route.

Hopefully. I would say let me live and we'll see who I can deliver.

 

Edit: I'm only going to say this once more. Are there any kill requests? If not we'll just kill a random person.

Edited August 6, 2016 by Master Elodin

[little wilson she/her]

I will not support any alliance the village tries to make with the Jeskeri, and I have a pretty good feeling most other actual villagers feel the same way. Those pushing for even the chance of an alliance are unlikely to be Citizens. They are more likely to be neutral, neutral evil, or evil.

There will be no alliance with the Jeskeri. It would be a painfully foolish thing to do.

[Master Elodin]

I could be Dula'd just for info as well.

[little wilson she/her]

How would that help? We already know almost for sure that you're neutral evil. Having a Dula check you is pointless since all it would do is confirm that you're not evil. Which still doesn't clear up the questions about your faction and the lies you've no doubt mixed in with the truth. I'd rather use the Dula to check possible eliminators, thanks.

[Arrae]

Said Dula could be nonexistant, a Jeskeri themselves, a neutral, an eliminator, a neutral-evil, roleblocked, killed, unwilling to scan you, or in various other disagreeable states. The Dula would only be able to tell if you were an eliminator. (And, well, I wouldn't put it past Joe to have people who can fool Dula scans.)

On the other hand, the writeup will always be accurate. The writeup will give us alignment, role, full specifics of your faction, and will allow us to pester Joe with as many questions about the Jeskeri as he can answer.

I don't know about you, but I prefer the writeup to the Dula as a source of information.

[Elenion he/him]

19 minutes ago, little wilson said:

I will not support any alliance the village tries to make with the Jeskeri, and I have a pretty good feeling most other actual villagers feel the same way. Those pushing for even the chance of an alliance are unlikely to be Citizens. They are more likely to be neutral, neutral evil, or evil.

That's a pretty strong accusation you're making there, the type that litters the streets with dead Citizen bodies. I support a possible truce because I see an opportunity that you would have us throw away.

Although I do agree that the Dula scan would be a stupid idea.

3 minutes ago, Arraenae said:

The writeup will give us alignment, role, full specifics of your faction, and will allow us to pester Joe with as many questions about the Jeskeri as he can answer.

I really doubt that we'll land more than a whole legion of PAFOs, as well as the name Jeskeri, a role, and a corpse. I say he's more good to us alive, where he can answer questions.

Edit: @Burnt Spaghetti appears to be lurking. Doc convo with Elodin?

Edited August 6, 2016 by Elenion

[Master Elodin]

1 minute ago, Elenion said:

That's a pretty strong accusation you're making there, the type that litters the streets with dead Citizen bodies. I support a possible truce because I see an opportunity that you would have us throw away.

Although I do agree that the Dula scan would be a stupid idea.

I really doubt that we'll land more than a whole legion of PAFOs, as well as the name Jeskeri, a role, and a corpse. I say he's more good to us alive, where he can answer questions.

Thank you. Also about the Dula thing- I forgot that they didn't scan alignment.

[Elenion he/him]

4 minutes ago, Master Elodin said:

Thank you. Also about the Dula thing- I forgot that they didn't scan alignment.

As for directing your kill, I don't have a good target to propose. Treating it as a sort of lynch, the only real suspicion from last time fell on Rae, although the more she posts the more village she sounds to me. Wilson's put the crosshairs on me, but there isn't any real evidence on either me or her.

[little wilson she/her]

Did you forget the part where neutral evils can't win with the village? Allying with them kills us. It ends in a village loss, almost certainly. You can say that he'll give us information, but we cannot trust anything he says. He will say anything to get us to do something stupid that helps his faction win.

Now, you weren't around for the few games where an outed eliminator was able to convince the village not to kill them by promising to give information and kill who the village requested. But guess what? The village lost.

Neutral evils can win with eliminators. The only hindrance to them is the village. If you want to help the neutral evils, you're not acting in the village's best interests. Simple as that. And if you're not acting in the village's best interests, I have to wonder why.

[Arrae]

2 hours ago, Burnt Spaghetti said:

Some Rp for Rae:

 

Naara beamed back at Anelin "Yay! This is such fun!" She blinked and said in a more serious tone, "though, you must forgive me. I am rather.... particular about my patterns. Do try to avoid messing with them. My... reactions... are generally much less extreme.... but... i'm really quite particular about breakfast foods specifically. But in general, stick to a schedule and you'll be fine," she smiled an almost kind smile before it went back into her beaming over excited one. She then proceeded to order her biscuits. Naara then picked up her napkin, and proceeded to start folding it up into a little tiara.

Anelin blinked. The girl folding a napkin into some ridiculous crown did not seem to be the same one who'd just screamed at the mention of pancakes after ten. Is she mentally ill? Anelin wondered. Or just putting on a friendly face?

Anelin picked up a biscuit and crammed it into her mouth. She chewed, swallowed, and reached for another biscuit. "These biscuits are quite good," she mumbled around her food. "Did you bake them, Naara?" As she waited for Naara to answer, she finished her second and third biscuits. Maybe Anelin could put up with her cousin, if only for the good food.

---

Burnt, Anelin is willing to be bribed with biscuits if Naara doesn't explode again.

[Master Elodin]

15 minutes ago, little wilson said:

Did you forget the part where neutral evils can't win with the village? Allying with them kills us. It ends in a village loss, almost certainly. You can say that he'll give us information, but we cannot trust anything he says. He will say anything to get us to do something stupid that helps his faction win.

Now, you weren't around for the few games where an outed eliminator was able to convince the village not to kill them by promising to give information and kill who the village requested. But guess what? The village lost.

Neutral evils can win with eliminators. The only hindrance to them is the village. If you want to help the neutral evils, you're not acting in the village's best interests. Simple as that. And if you're not acting in the village's best interests, I have to wonder why.

Almost certainly. Not certainly. Well I'm probably being killed by at least five people, do at the very least I hope my death will bring some revelations. Probably not happy ones though.

[little wilson she/her]

I never said the village loss would be due to a Jeskeri win. Though allying with the Jeskeri will help the Jeskeri significantly, really the only team an alliance like that would make lose is the village. The eliminators could absolutely pull out a win. This is again why an alliance is an utterly terrible idea for the village.

[STINK he/him]

Basically, if your win condition is one where you have to kill people, then you're evil. Except for the village one

I don't have to kill people, so I'm fine. You see Elodin lying about stuff? He hasn't lied about his win con in terms of killing, so evil.

Simple as that. You can try to write a long post to argue but you can't, cause I'm right

[jaimeleecee she/her]

@Master Elodin I'm skipping ahead because I'm driving so I'm sorry if someone already said this, but you're misunderstanding the rules of LG22... The only converts that could keep either win cons were the dark friends! The villagers who were converted (like me) became only corrupted and could only win as corrupted. If we could have won as either what would have been the point of us at all. Also the DFs would not have been able to win as both they could win as either, for example Rubiks could have betrayed us and helped you kill us off and still win as a DF even though he was corrupted, we were going to corrupt you too so you could help us but the win would have been as corrupted.. Not for both. 

[TheSilverDragon he/him]

10 hours ago, Elenion said:

As for directing your kill, I don't have a good target to propose. Treating it as a sort of lynch, the only real suspicion from last time fell on Rae, although the more she posts the more village she sounds to me. Wilson's put the crosshairs on me, but there isn't any real evidence on either me or her.

If we are allying, not say we should, with the jeskeri then we should hold a vote to decide who the jeskeri should kill, therefor allowing the village to take a more active role in the kill, also it would be free from vote manipulation, and if the jeskeri actually do kill the person with the most votes, then they would have gained a bit more trust

[Elenion he/him]

12 hours ago, little wilson said:

And if you're not acting in the village's best interests, I have to wonder why.

Why? Because my best interests appear to be different than your best interests, which you consider to be the village's best interests. I think an alliance is in the village's best interests, as long as we keep a choke-hold on the Jeskeri by threat of lynch on Elodin. Even more than the kill, I want the list of his faction so we can narrow down elim targets.

Also, just a thought, we might want a Dula to hit Elodin just to make sure the Jeskeri aren't the full elims.

11 hours ago, Master Elodin said:

Almost certainly. Not certainly. Well I'm probably being killed by at least five people, do at the very least I hope my death will bring some revelations. Probably not happy ones though.

Nice try. There's a very high chance that your Bodyguard or Legionnaire (chances are you've got at least one) won't stand for that.

 

Also, did anyone else notice that Elodin, when mentioning his faction's ace here, called them a "she"? Who does that leave? I can think of Rae, El, Wilson, and Burnt off the top of my head. Bar Wilson because she wants to kill Elodin very badly indeed, and we've got a suspect list.

[Magestar he/him]

18 minutes ago, Elenion said:

Also, did anyone else notice that Elodin, when mentioning his faction's ace here, called them a "she"? Who does that leave? I can think of Rae, El, Wilson, and Burnt off the top of my head. Bar Wilson because she wants to kill Elodin very badly indeed, and we've got a suspect list.

Ooooooooo, those slip-ups though.  Nice bit of work, Elenion.

I'm going to quote it for posterity.  

21 hours ago, Master Elodin said:

Rae, we also have a conversion every two cycles. We're willing to work with the village for a time at least. We also have a Forsaken-type (not in abilities really, just an ace in the hole type) Jeskeri leader, but we're not telling what she does yet. That, Alv, is why we don't need to be larger than the village.

It's also probably not Rae, because that's who he was talking to.  That leaves El and Burnt, and, just gut here, I'm going to say it's El.

Edited August 6, 2016 by Magestar

[Master Elodin]

42 minutes ago, Magestar said:

Ooooooooo, those slip-ups though.  Nice bit of work, Elenion.

I'm going to quote it for posterity.  

It's also probably not Rae, because that's who he was talking to.  That leaves El and Burnt, and, just gut here, I'm going to say it's El.

Whoops. Anyways, I'm pretty sure I'm still going to be targeted. Anyone want to protect me? I actually don't have a Bodyguard or any other protection. Also, jaimeleecee, I was a Darkfriend in LG22, so that would be my point of view. I wasn't saying that it was an exact parallel, I was just giving a point of comparison for ease of understanding.*laughs* guys they fell for the she thing

[STINK he/him]

Alright. Before you guys go rushing off on this chain of logic. I'll say some stuff for you, just to like keep in mind ya know? Cause I'm Neutral, and it's funny to see how you're being played.

1. That slip-up? Most likely on purpose. It's one of those things where you have someone you wanna keep secret so you pretend to accidentally say their gender, but it's really the wrong one on purpose. Happens all the time.

2. We know that Elodin is trying to speak for these mysterious convert roles. They might not even exist. He might be an elim, making it alright for you guys to die. Oh, and Elenion might be an elim and in on it as well.

3. If these convert roles exist, why is no-one wondering if Elenion, the guy who has already said is fine with being converted and killing everyone, has already been converted? 

4. And I'll bring this up again 'cause it's fun to think about based on the last 2 points. Elenion's chain of information where he is giving out orders? Jeez, totally not someone converting others. Totally not a charismatic cult leader who can influence votes either.

5. These are all like really basic thoughts, honestly all three of you are more suspicious now just for taking everything on the surface. What did Kelsier say in that one book?

6. For crying out loud Elenion, why would the Jeskeri (if they even exist) act with the town all the time because we supposedly know one of their members who might die? It's not like the Jeskeri can add to their ranks, can they? 

7. I'm excited to see what happens when PMs start. I'll probably get like none again. #justneutralthings

8. That is all.

[Magestar he/him]

I'll PM you Stink.  No worries.

I know that probs most everything is lies.  But IDC.  So, whatevs.  I have no reason to feel that I will die tonight.  In fact, I am sure I won't.