Long Game 24: The Godless City

[TheMightyLopen he/him]

I killed Straw on N1, nobody on N2, and I attacked Elodin like I said I would last Night.

Aman.

[A Joe in the Bush]

11 minutes ago, Arraenae said:

No philosopher kill this Night. However, two people still died to non-JP causes. 

The 'Philosopher' killed Elbereth, however, since it is Elbereth we're talking about, I'm going to avoid working on her writeup until she gets online and tells me that she wants me to do it, rather than her.

Araris was a normal kill.

[STINK he/him]

Alright, now that Joe has given like the GM say on what the Jeskeri win con is, I can say that I don't have to worry about them. 

So you do you, guys.

[Amanuensis he/him]

11 hours ago, The Only Joe said:

A Player was attacked by the Jeskeri Practitioner, but was saved!

Magestar was killed by the Jeskeri Practitioner! He was a Citizen Legionnaire!

Wilson was killed by the Jeskeri Practitioner! She was a Citizen Bodyguard!

Jaime was killed by the Jeskeri Practitioner! She was a Citizen Bodyguard!

Elodin  was killed by the Jeskeri Practitioner! He was a Citizen ChayShan Practitioner!

Araris was killed! He was a Citizen Merchant!

Elbereth was killed! She was a Citizen Dula!
 

The Secret Faction The Jeskeri Cult has been revealed. They are eliminators. They have a Doc. They do not have a group or nightly kill. Their goal is to outnumber the Citizenry and kill all other Eliminators.

The Secret Role Jeskeri Practitioner has been revealed. Jeskeri Practitioners may target one player every 3rd night. That player is killed, as is Every player that player targets, and every player that targets that player. If the Practitioner dies, a Jeskeri Acolyte ascends to become a Practitioner.

Disclaimer: Everything in quotations rather than a quote box are not actual quotations but me paraphrasing.

I've looked this over a couple times now and sadly there's no explanation other than that I was targeted by all of those players, including the Jeskeri Practioner, and now I'm just utterly confused. Magestar and Elodin make complete sense. Magestar has been Arresting me non-stop this whole game, and Elodin was asked by Magestar to attack me. But I don't really get why Wilson or Jaime targeted me.

For some background, Wilson claimed to me and another Legionnaire on D1, and the three of us formed a little (tentative) trust group. Because there were lots of claims of protective roles floating around (Wilson's, Anonymous Legionnaire, Mailliw's and Lopen's) we came to the conclusion that there were a lot of kill roles as well (as was quickly proven by the numerous ChayShan on top of the Philosopher). To verify that all three of us were trustworthy, I suggested a plan. I asked the player who claimed Legionnaire to Arrest me that night to prove he was being honest about his role (as I had heard no other claims of Legionnaire and wanted to feel certain about not dying). If he did, I would not post in thread, and Wilson could choose to Guard either the Legionnaire or herself (I didn't want her to tell us who exactly, just in case one of us was evil and would tip off their team). If he didn't, I would post in the thread (alerting both Wilson and the Eliminators that I was free game) to hopefully draw their kill and prove her protection.

Wilson said she liked the plan but that she was not comfortable with protecting anyone but herself, and I did not push the subject. I said from the very beginning of the game that the best course of action for Citizen Bodyguard's is to protect themselves until the late game, and that only became a more valid suggestion when it turned out Wilson was one, given her tendency to die early.

Anyway, D2 roles around and she's contacted by the Dula, Elbereth. Earlier that turn, Elbereth PM'd me telling me that of all the players, she trusted me the most to be village. The previous turn, I had started a PM with all of the Venture's from LG23 (Elb, Rae, Jaime, Bard, Sart and Lopen) and in it someone brought up all of us claiming immediately like we did this game, and Elb jokingly claimed Dula and that she totally wasn't an eliminator planning on just faking scans. My immediate first reaction was that it wasn't a joke, so when she PM'd me that next turn I was like "Oh awesome, so you weren't lying when you said you were a Dula in the Venture PM," and accompanied it with a list of people I think she could scan next and why. She immediately pointed out that she couldn't have scanned me if I was really Arrested like I said I would be, and then seconds after sent a second PM saying "Oh, and I'm not a Dula." I didn't push it since she was right that an Arrested player can't be scanned, but I had a theory then that she scanned Emerald as an Eliminator, hence her "strong gut read" post at the beginning of the turn. I later find out in the PM with the Anonymous Legionnaire and Wilson that Wilson was scanned by a Dula, and aside from a trust of me and a distrust of Emerald, they had no reads. I responded with "Oh, that's ironic because I totally accused a player of being a Dula earlier today who had those exact same reads and nothing else." Wilson had a bit of an "oh chulldung" moment, told Elbereth what happened, and then they both officially brought me in to their little circle, since it was pretty much undeniable at that point.

Onwards! So, N1 I got arrested by both Magestar and the Legionnaire that claimed to Wilson and I. I immediately told the second Legionnaire to go on protecting themselves every night from then on out like they said they wanted to, since Magestar had agreed to protect me for the first four or five nights, unless something more strategic came up. I also asked Elbereth to scan Magestar to make sure that he wasn't an evil Legionnaire, since he was pretty quick to claim to me in that doc and because he had done some things in thread that made me go hmm. Well, D3 roles around and Magestar is verified as non-elim too, and we make a new group PM to brief him in on everything.

So this is where your theory falls apart mostly, Ren. Wilson knew straight from the source that I would be Arrested again. She even supported it. She didn't want me to be exposed, but also didn't want to risk dying to protect me herself. As for Jaime, she claimed to me towards the end of D3 when I made a post of all the Bodyguard claims I've heard. She wanted to tell me she was one too, who she had been protecting, and that she thought one of the other Bodyguards had to be evil. Wilson couldn't have been unless Elb was too, and since I figured out Elb's rather than was approached by her, I determined that was most likely not the case. That meant it had to be either Jaime herself, Lopen or Emerald. Since I already knew who Jaime was claiming to protect, and that Emerald had basically claimed to have been a Bodyguard by claiming he was attacked, I asked Lopen if he had been self-protecting. It was at that point that he claimed to be the ChayShan who killed Straw, and that he attacked no one else. So, that left either Jaime or Emerald. I won't lie and say that Jaime didn't offer to protect me since she trusted me, but I immediately told her not to because I already had a Legionnaire Arresting me, and therefore her ability would be better used on herself or Wilson (I didn't want to give away that Wilson was a Bodyguard in case Jaime was evil).

If the still living Legionnaire wishes, they can verify some of this is true since a good deal of it was talked about in the PM with him, Wilson and I. He didn't know Elb or Magestar's identities, but he knew that I was being constantly Arrested by a second Legionnaire and that Wilson and I both were in contact with the Dula. That being said, I might just out him anyway if he doesn't speak up, because I have a theory that he might be Jeskeri, himself.

I think that covers everything, so let me respond to you more specifically, Ren.

10 hours ago, Renegade said:

Aman. The Jeskeri attacked one of their own players who they knew would be protected.  Nobody else other than Aman could've coordinated that many players to target him at once, nor could they have known that he was being targeted by so many players.

This is the exact definition of post hoc ergo propter hoc. Just because I was attacked and a lot of people died doesn't mean the Jeskeri attacked one of their own. Just because a lot of players targeted me doesn't mean I arranged them to (Magestar is the only one who should have). Just because several people died from targeting me does not mean the Jeskeri knew so many people would be doing it. There's a much more likely theory that you seem to be discounting entirely, despite the fact that you provide the evidence in your next post.

10 hours ago, Renegade said:

I can't know for sure, but there's several very jarring pieces of evidence.  One of which to comes to mind is that Magestar seemed rather certain that Aman was being protected last night, and considering that Mage is a Legionnaire and was killed, it makes sense that Aman was the one who was attacked.

Edit: Also, according to Wilson's trust list, the only players she likely would've protected are Aman, Eol, Emerald, and herself.  Wilson clearly didn't protect herself, and I highly doubt that Eol or Emerald received that many actions.

That evidence is probably very jarring because Magestar directly pointed out for everyone in the thread that I had protection lined up. He invited Elodin to attack me to prove that his faction had access to a kill role. Don't you think it's a lot more likely that the Jeskeri saw this and said, "Hey, Aman's been claiming in thread that he's being Arrested by a Legionnaire every night and now a player is asking this Neutral-Evil faction to prove their kill role by attacking him. This is a perfect opportunity to get rid of a village protection role and an opposite faction's kill role at once." This is exactly what I believe happened, as your theory makes zero sense. And it's extremely unfortunate that the Philosopher killed Elb because she herself could verify that everything I've said so far is true.

A pretty important factor in all of this was Elodin's "Deliberate Misdirection." My only explanation for Jaime protecting me despite me telling her not to is that Magestar was being pretty pushy about me being attacked by Elodin and just in case she wanted to make sure I didn't die. As for Wilson I would guess the same thing but she knew Magestar was Arresting me. It's possible that she thought the Legionnaire would only protect from one kill since that's how the Bodyguard works, so that she was trying to make sure that if I was attacked by multiple bad guys, they would all fail. Otherwise I have no idea, as she said during the day turn that she would be protecting herself, and if not her, Elb, since Elb was the Dula and she already knew I was being Arrested.

There's a good reason why I'm on Wilson's trust list, as well as pretty much every one else's (at least everyone who has posted trust lists so far). It's because I'm trust worthy. I'm somewhat flattered that you believe I could be that deceiving, but I'm not. Lopen and Elbereth especially have consistently got gut reads in the last few games I've been evil from the start, and since D1 they've pretty much been vouching for me. The answer to this mystery isn't that I'm evil. It's that I was obviously good, and therefore I was a very smart target for the Jeskeri to attack, as it was more likely that I was going to be protected by multiple players than anyone else in the game. Especially after Magestar begged Elodin to attack me in thread.

Now, what I've noticed, Renegade, is a combination of how quick you were to vote for me and the weak logic behind it, not mention how assured you were in that first post of yours (what's that quote about only Sith dealing with absolutes?). You've been on a lot of player's suspicion lists for a while (including Wilson's, who known for frequently getting accurate reads on people) and you've been incredibly quiet this game so far. Why is that after N3, the night after the Jeskeri Practitioner can make his entrance, that you're suddenly one of the first players to post in the thread? Is it because you knew this reveal was going to happen and were looking forward to see the fruits of your labor? Given how quick you were to accuse me of being the reason so many players died, I get the strong feeling that you had considered blaming me for this ahead of time, and that once you saw that two Bodyguards got dragged down along with the Legionnaire and Elodin, you saw the perfect opportunity to pull me down, too.

Also, anyone else notice how this write up proves that Emerald lied the other day? This one proves that a player who is attacked and saved gets announced in the write up. It might not reveal said players name, but it definitely informs us all when a block occurs. Now why would a villager lie about something like that? I see no reason why they would, and this would explain Jaime's theory about one of the other Bodyguard's being evil (since now both Wilson and her are proven good).

Knowing what I do now, I'd have to guess that the Jeskeri have three or four players. It says that the Jeskeri win condition involves killing all other Eliminators, so that probably means there's either another small team out there or that the Philosopher is a lone, Serial-Killer-esque eliminator. Now I'm not sure if Emerald and you are both Jeskeri, but at the very least I think you're both eliminators.

I also think Lopen might be an eliminator as well. Mostly it's because one of his self-proclaimed eliminator tells is that he gets lazy. Apart from the post on N2 about players who were not posting during the night turns maybe being evil to avoid scans (in which Wilson pointed out all of the flaws in), he hasn't contributed in this game nearly as much as he usually does. His vote on me this turn is one of a few examples of him just throwing votes on people without much thought, which I seldom see him do as a villager (except early game poke votes). There's also the fact that he's claimed to be the ChayShan who killed Straw when apparently there's multiple ChayShan out there claiming to have attacked him, and that he is now claiming he attacked Elodin, conveniently at the same time that the Jeskeri kills him.

I also am worried that the other Legionnaire who Arrested me on N1 might be evil. He knows a good deal of information thanks to Wilson and I, and his paranoia about being attacked reminds me of when an eliminator constantly overplays how much danger they're in. He's also pretty much been doing nothing but observing this game, which is not exactly alignment-indicative for him, but he's even been considerably more quiet in our group PMs as late. I also believe that the eliminators were given a Legionnaire because while it would guarantee them protecting one of their own, it doesn't come without it's drawbacks (unable to put in actions, unable to talk in the thread or the doc at night - though this can be circumvented by the Legionnaire talking for them). It would also explain why he was so insistent on Arresting himself and hesitant about proving his role to me. I could see him conceding just for that first night only so that he could gain my trust, as it was a known role's ability.

And I think that pretty much covers it. I remember I had another theory about who else is evil bouncing around in my head, but I can't remember right now and I really need to get to work on my last essay for this term.

Edited August 7, 2016 by Amanuensis

[STINK he/him]

You know it's SE when loads of people claim to Aman because he is Aman.

[Elenion he/him]

Okay then, so it looks like Maill was indeed trolling us with that info. Here's my current suspicions:

• Emerald lied; that's provable by the GM. I'd suggest a Chay-Shan attack N4 on him unless he's got a good reason to have lied.
• I've had a strong village read on Aman all game, and Ren's bait theory is complete false-causality: Aman had no way to line up a massive action web without a doc or PM to do it in, and since the dead players were village we can rule out a doc, and since it was Night we can rule out a PM. The Practitioner must have targeted Aman to try to get him, Elodin, and the protector, and just got a few bonus kills in too.
• I'll be putting in my extra vote as a duplicate of whoever my lynch vote goes on, currently Ren.

[Orlok Tsubodai he/him]

I'm the anonymous legionairre Aman has been referring to, and can indeed verify that a PM existed between Wilson, Aman and myself, and that Aman hasn't mislead anyone about the content of said PM.

@Elenion, you do forget that Aman has had PMs every day cycle - a lack of PMs at night doesn't preclude organisation, even on such a scale as would be required.

[Renegade he/him]

I voted for you because things seem far too convenient right now.  You're saying that Wilson believed that Magestar wouldn't be protecting you, but that still doesn't quite line up.  If you weren't Arrested during the Night, Wilson should've just waited for you to say something in-thread as confirmation.  And despite the fact that Jaime apparently had quite a bit of trust in you, she did not trust you when you said that you'd be protected during the Night?  And in addition to this, you had no codes or anything set up to confirm to Wilson that you were being Arrested in the first place?  After all, you were in a doc with Magestar, and you could've quite easily passed on coded confirmation of your Arrest so he could post in-thread.  This just seems awfully uncoordinated.

[Amanuensis he/him]

49 minutes ago, Renegade said:

I voted for you because things seem far too convenient right now.  You're saying that Wilson believed that Magestar wouldn't be protecting you, but that still doesn't quite line up.  If you weren't Arrested during the Night, Wilson should've just waited for you to say something in-thread as confirmation.  And despite the fact that Jaime apparently had quite a bit of trust in you, she did not trust you when you said that you'd be protected during the Night?  And in addition to this, you had no codes or anything set up to confirm to Wilson that you were being Arrested in the first place?  After all, you were in a doc with Magestar, and you could've quite easily passed on coded confirmation of your Arrest so he could post in-thread.  This just seems awfully uncoordinated.

When did I say Wilson wouldn't believe Magestar was protecting me? I'm pretty sure I just said the exact opposite in that last post. "So this is where your theory falls apart mostly, Ren. Wilson knew straight from the source that I would be Arrested again. She even supported it. She didn't want me to be exposed, but also didn't want to risk dying to protect me herself."

Elb scanned Wilson and Mage. At the very least you can expect them to know exactly what the other is doing. How could I have possibly tricked Wilson into thinking that Mage wasn't actually Arresting me? Especially with me obviously not posting during the turn, despite viewing the thread several times and even posting in my own QF? She knew I was Arrested before the night began. I already told her that if I was ever not Arrested when I was supposed to be, I would post in the thread, therefore there would be no need to send her a code. I had no idea there was a Werewolf role in this game, and even if I did, how does that explain how I got her to protect me despite being Arrested? The only explanation is she thought the Eliminators would attack me in addition to Elodin and that the Legionnaire would only block one kill, just like how the Bodyguard works. It was likely a snap decision she made at the end under the assumption that the two protections worked the same, and I reckon that's exactly what happened with Jaime, too.

I might have a reputation for being manipulative but even I'm not capable of deceiving Wilson like that, let alone could I have convinced a Citizen ChayShan to claim Neutral-Evil and then make Magestar pressure for them to attack me. Not only am I telling the truth, but what you're suggesting is just way too out there, man. The most obvious answer is that the actual Jeskeri believed that Elodin was Neutral-Evil and attacking me, so knowing that I was protected would guarantee them at least two useful kills - one on a protective role and one on a Neutral-Evil that proclaimed they wanted them dead. It makes a lot more sense that Wilson and Jaime just decided to put their orders in to protect me to be safe and got caught in the crossfire, rather than that I somehow set all of this up.

Also I never said anything about Jaime not trusting me when I said I was actually going to be Arrested. I said I told her straight up not to protect me because I was going to be Arrested and that she should protect either Wilson or herself. Could I be lying about this? Absolutely. As far as I'm aware, Orlok is the only remaining player that knew Jaime was a Bodyguard before this turn, and he found out because Wilson and I were discussing it in front of him. In the exact same PM I said that I was going to tell her to protect someone other than me because it wasn't necessary, and that I didn't trust her enough to put my life in her hands.

There are just way too many parts for anyone to be able to seriously believe I planned for this. Sometimes villagers make mistakes and eliminators get lucky. And right now you're proving another point in my favor. What you're saying right now is another reason why it would be smart of the Jeskeri to attack me despite being Arrested. With it being well-known I was being Legionnaire'd, someone could spin it like I set a trap. But that would rely on me tricking almost every villager with a protect that I'm for sure a villager. It makes a lot more sense that they expected me to be targeted more than any other player, especially with Magestar openly claiming that I had protection lined up in thread to convince Elodin to attack me, which is the nail in the coffin for why I think you're Jeskeri, Ren.

Edited August 7, 2016 by Amanuensis

[Renegade he/him]

Look, under normal circumstances, I'd be unlikely to believe that you'd be able to manipulate that many people myself.  But you're saying that Wilson, a player who tends to be very knowledgeable of the rules, decided to protect a player who she knew to be Arrested, when the rules state that all actions targeting an Arrested player fail.  Which would include her own protection ability, as well as all kill actions.  If she was ambiguous about this, I'm almost certain that she would've brought it up with Joe.

Quote

Legionnaire - (Day Active/Night Passive) The Legionnaire targets a player during the day. At Night the player is Arrested. This is not revealed. The Legionnaire and the Arrested player are both put anonymously into a doc. The Arrested player cannot talk in the thread, PM’s or Docs, except the provided Arrested Doc. The Arrested player cannot take any action, and all actions targeting them fail. The Legionnaire is still targetable. The Legionnaire can arrest the same person multiple cycles in a row. You can Arrest yourself. If two  Legionnaires attempt to arrest the same player, the arrested player will be put in two docs, one with each Legionnaire. The Legionnaires will not be aware of the other Legionnaire. If two Legionnaires arrest each other, They will be put in the same doc, not two docs. If a Legionnaire arrests another Legionnaire, who arrests someone else, the arrested  Legionnaire will be put in a doc with the other  Legionnaire, and with his player. He can talk in both. If a Legionnaire arrests himself, he will not be given a doc. Posting in the Doc counts as posting in the thread for the inactivity filter.

(Emphasis mine)

From what you've said, Wilson willingly left herself completely open to attack, in order to protect a player that she couldn't have even ended up protecting in the first place.  While I find the possibility that you manipulated Wilson into doing this doubtful, the possibility that she willingly did so herself seems even more doubtful.

[Amanuensis he/him]

22 minutes ago, Renegade said:

Look, under normal circumstances, I'd be unlikely to believe that you'd be able to manipulate that many people myself.  But you're saying that Wilson, a player who tends to be very knowledgeable of the rules, decided to protect a player who she knew to be Arrested, when the rules state that all actions targeting an Arrested player fail.  Which would include her own protection ability, as well as all kill actions.  If she was ambiguous about this, I'm almost certain that she would've brought it up with Joe.

From what you've said, Wilson willingly left herself completely open to attack, in order to protect a player that she couldn't have even ended up protecting in the first place.  While I find the possibility that you manipulated Wilson into doing this doubtful, the possibility that she willingly did so herself seems even more doubtful.

I get that. Especially after her posting about being disappointed that other players hadn't read the rules more thoroughly in regards to win conditions. But given that she openly said in thread that a Dula scanned both Magestar and her, and that I was also aware of the Dula's identity, there's just no way I could have convinced her to protect me, especially since the whole game I've been counseling her to protect herself over anyone else. The explanation I provided is the only other answer I can see that makes sense. I'm especially upset right now because the Philosopher killed Elb, the only player who could confirm I'm telling the whole truth right now, which makes me think that they've somehow established contact with the Jeskeri and are working together (assuming that they're Neutral Evil rather than an Eliminator).

The fact of the matter is, I was Arrested. It's obvious I've been Arrested this entire game, which means it's been impossible for me to put in any kind of action. At the very least that exonerates me of being the Jeskeri Practioner or the Philosopher themselves. I guess there's no proof that I can't be a member of their team with a less important role, but there's not any evidence to suggest that. Unlike you, who guns for me as soon as this turn ends and who could very well be either of those.

I cannot explain why the two Bodyguards targeted me. I told Jaime I didn't need it and Wilson should have known better. Human error is the only explanation I can see at this point in time. It's not even the fact that you're bringing this up that makes me suspicious of you, anyway. It was your immediate reaction. Your certainty, and the logical fallacy of it. Just because I was attacked and a lot of people died doesn't mean that I was the cause. Given almost every player's read of me as village this entire game, it should be pretty obvious that's why the Jeskeri chose me as their first target. Either I'd be protected and they'd kill whoever was protecting me to keep them from protecting me any longer, or I would be lying about being protected and they'd just kill me then. If that wasn't their plan from the start of their turn, it makes even more sense after what Elodin did. And I'm pretty sure you were one of many players post before the turn ends. You made a very small post saying that you disagreed with an alliance (an understandable thing to propose when you're actually an eliminator and Elodin was claiming Neutral-Evil and that he was willing to team up with the village to kill the eliminators), and then much later, all you really posted about was a speculation on all the kills that occurred, that we shouldn't trust players just because they were attacked (funny how you say that right before I'm attacked), and that you're afraid of a well-protected trust group forming (pretty much impossible now with the Dula and three protections dead). You definitely had time to plot and change orders given everything that happened in the second half of the last turn.

Edited August 7, 2016 by Amanuensis

[TheMightyLopen he/him]

Aman, what was the plan that you made with Jaime to confirm her role?

[Amanuensis he/him]

1 minute ago, TheMightyLopen said:

Aman, what was the plan that you made with Jaime to confirm her role?

I never made a plan with Jaime to confirm her role. She offered to protect me to prove it and I told her that I wouldn't need it since I was going to be Arrested again. My last message to her was me recommending she protect herself or Elbereth (I just went back to read my PM with her and apparently I told her Elbereth and not Wilson. The reason was because in the PM with Wilson, Orlok and I, we talked about how the Philosopher was going after quiet players and that it would make her a more likely target than Wilson, so by having Jaime use her protection on Elbereth it would leave Wilson to protect herself). If I had more time to come up with a plan, it'd be to ask you to attack an inactive player like Conq while she protects him, so you two could confirm the kill failed. Though that was under the assumption that saves wouldn't appear in the write up, which we now know isn't true, which also shows I was right in calling Emerald out the other day.

[TheMightyLopen he/him]

2 minutes ago, Amanuensis said:

I never made a plan with Jaime to confirm her role. She offered to protect me to prove it and I told her that I wouldn't need it since I was going to be Arrested again. My last message to her was me recommending she protect herself or Elbereth (I just went back to read my PM with her and apparently I told her Elbereth and not Wilson. The reason was because in the PM with Wilson, Orlok and I, we talked about how the Philosopher was going after quiet players and that it would make her a more likely target than Wilson, so by having Jaime use her protection on Elbereth it would leave Wilson to protect herself). If I had more time to come up with a plan, it'd be to ask you to attack an inactive player like Conq while she protects him, so you two could confirm the kill failed. Though that was under the assumption that saves wouldn't appear in the write up, which we now know isn't true, which also shows I was right in calling Emerald out the other day.

Hmmm. Well, that's not what Jaime implied in my PM with her. Earlier, I'd said I'd had some gut suspicion against her, so she came to me last Day Turn and was asking about that and said she was a good village role, and if it was any consolation to me, she'd claimed to you and that you and her(she worded it as "we," but given the context, I am assuming she was discussing this solely with you) had a plan that should hopefully prove her role. She told me I could ask you if I wanted confirmation, but I generally just believe people when they say stuff like that, so I didn't think to ask, given I wasn't really that suspicious of her to begin with.

So, to me, it sounds like there was more coordination going on than you imply. That's not to say that I'm certain you made this grand plan to kill all those protects, I'm just going through everything there is to try and figure out exactly what happened.

I'm gonna try to list everything I know about this situation in just a moment. Right now, I'm gonna eat lunch.

[STINK he/him]

This is why I don't get involved in stuff like this

[Amanuensis he/him]

23 minutes ago, TheMightyLopen said:

Hmmm. Well, that's not what Jaime implied in my PM with her. Earlier, I'd said I'd had some gut suspicion against her, so she came to me last Day Turn and was asking about that and said she was a good village role, and if it was any consolation to me, she'd claimed to you and that you and her(she worded it as "we," but given the context, I am assuming she was discussing this solely with you) had a plan that should hopefully prove her role. She told me I could ask you if I wanted confirmation, but I generally just believe people when they say stuff like that, so I didn't think to ask, given I wasn't really that suspicious of her to begin with.

So, to me, it sounds like there was more coordination going on than you imply. That's not to say that I'm certain you made this grand plan to kill all those protects, I'm just going through everything there is to try and figure out exactly what happened.

I'm gonna try to list everything I know about this situation in just a moment. Right now, I'm gonna eat lunch.

Do you know around what time that was? I told her at exactly 1935 CST (about two and a half hours before turnover) that the Legionnaire decided for sure that he was going to be Arresting me, so that she'd be best off using her protection on herself or Elbereth if she felt like she'd be safe. If it was before then she might have been referring to her first message where she told me she could prove it by protecting me, but I said that wouldn't be necessary as long as the Legionnaire arrests me like we planned. I did tell her to hold on a bit because I was discussing things with the Legionnaire, when really I went on to discuss the possibility of Jaime being evil with Wilson / Elb / Mage (Wilson in particular understood my distrust of her since she knew she was a Bodyguard). Ultimately we decided it'd be better to just keep with the original plan of Magestar Arresting me and tell her to protect herself or Elbereth since there was a good chance she'd be attacked given the Philosopher's MO so far. Some of this convo also bled over into the PM with Orlok, so he can confirm I'm not lying about that, too.

Like I said, the only explanation is that she saw Mage asking for me to be attacked by Elodin and decided it was better for her to be safe and protect me than risk me dying. When Jaime claimed to me we didn't really talk much about it. At first we talked about the possibility of Emerald and Araris being evil together and then the tag Joe put about things being a coincidence and also Rae after I mentioned some of the odd things she's done in the thread. She was already afraid of looking bad because she band wagoned on the Araris vote and didn't want to do that again with Rae. Actually, in this exact same PM (marked 1815 CST) she said she mentioned her suspicion of Rae in your PM, Lopen, and that you still hadn't answered her when she asked where your opinion of her being evil was. That was literally the last PM she sent me before the turn ended (I don't think she got on again after that).

Edited August 7, 2016 by Amanuensis

[TheMightyLopen he/him]

Okay, so, her last message to me was at 2254 CST on Wednesday, which I think is almost exactly 24 hours before turnover for Day 3. So your messages were the next day I guess?

I don't really understand the timing of those messages though. I live in CST. Her message to me about her claiming to you and stuff included her suspicion of Rae and was at exactly 2225 CST(or, 10:25pm Wednesday night). I responded about 20 minutes later to each point she said, including that I was mildly suspicious of Rae and wasn't sure I believed her claim of Neutral(since then, with all of the stuff about her and Silverblade, I'm leaning more towards villager). After that, she said she was going to bed and that was her last message to me.

Anyways, that's probably irrelevant. I'm still having a hard time understanding how both Wilson and Jaime would protect you over themselves or Elbereth, the scanner(only Wilson knew about her I guess, but still). It was fairly clear that Magestar had arrested you. I just don't really know what to think at this point.

If you actually are village, my thought would be that Wilson was getting upset at people and was like I'll just leave things to Aman or something, so she protected you just in case you weren't protected and then Jaime, seeing Elodin said you were getting attacked and thinking it was unlikely she was gonna get attacked and, not knowing Elbereth was a scanner, didn't really want to protect her, so she just wanted to take the 'safe' action of protecting you. But...dang. Is that really plausible? Or a better question: Is that more likely than you being trusted by all of those players and getting them all to target you? Of course, I'm also trying to figure out how the Philosopher knew to kill Elbereth. You knew about El, so I was assuming you were Jeskeri and were at least in contact with them if you weren't on the same team and told them that you'd gotten all the protection to target you so El was open to attack, but, I'm also finding it hard to believe that you could do all of that without Wilson being suspicious.

So, hm. I'm leaning towards believing you I suppose. I honestly thought you were gonna just reveal yourself as Jeskeri. So I guess, in the scenario where you were Jeskeri and managed to manipulate all of that into happening, you'd be likely to just take the victory of having gotten 4 villagers killed(or 5) and have your fun as a revealed eliminator again. Probably. I think. :/

If you're telling the truth, then that was one of the biggest(and worst) coincidences I've ever seen. Basically, I wish Elodin hadn't said all of that completely weird stuff and (maybe) getting Wilson and Jaime to target you(and killing himself in the process, because I did attack him). Who knows how things would have gone if he hadn't done that? Why would you do that Elodin???? I'd prefer to assume that Elodin was manipulated somehow rather than being a troll(Elodin, seriously, if you were just being a troll like it appears you were, I'm really really not happy with you), but that doesn't seem very likely to me.

Anyways, my thoughts are still pretty jumbled right now. Current thoughts: Aman is telling the truth and it was due to Elodin's "reveal" and attack of Aman that Wilson and Jaime chose to protect him rather than him manipulating them all to protect him, and the attack on El was either coincidence, or the Philosopher is working with the Cultists and they somehow figured out that El was the scanner(I will admit to having guessed that El was the scanner and did tell her that I thought she was, but she denied it, although I think she did tell Wilson that I guessed).

[Renegade he/him]

39 minutes ago, TheMightyLopen said:

Anyways, my thoughts are still pretty jumbled right now. Current thoughts: Aman is telling the truth and it was due to Elodin's "reveal" and attack of Aman that Wilson and Jaime chose to protect him rather than him manipulating them all to protect him, and the attack on El was either coincidence, or the Philosopher is working with the Cultists and they somehow figured out that El was the scanner(I will admit to having guessed that El was the scanner and did tell her that I thought she was, but she denied it, although I think she did tell Wilson that I guessed).

I'd like to point out that Magestar was technically the one who suggested attacking Aman, and he was in the same doc as Aman during the Night.  The question is: why would Magestar choose to have Aman attacked rather than a player that they suspected?

[Arrae]

I believe Lopen's CSP claim. D2, I noted Straw's death in our PM and said that a villager died for taking the game more seriously. Then I asked Lopen if he really was a citizen.

Lopen said that he unhappy enough and I didn't need to rub it in. Fitting thing for a CSP who just killed a villager to say.

Either Aman or Lopen is a Jeskeri, I think. I don't feel like wading through each of their arguments right now (typing this on mobile in a moving car is giving me enough of a headache as it is). I'll look  at things later.

I think Ren is suspicious for saying so quickly than Aman must be Jeskeri, that he must have organized Wilson's, Magestar's, Jaime's and Elodin's deaths.

[Amanuensis he/him]

Just now, Renegade said:

I'd like to point out that Magestar was technically the one who suggested attacking Aman, and he was in the same doc as Aman during the Night.  The question is: why would Magestar choose to have Aman attacked rather than a player that they suspected?

That was his idea, actually, and one he was rather proud of. He knew I was safe and that he would receive the alert if I was attacked. He thought instead of getting a potential villager killed, it would be safer to just have Elodin prove he was working with us that way rather than risk someone's life.

Now I'd like to point out something of my own: Mailliw's mass info drop.

Quote

One final present I have:

Presenting, Soul Devouring and Spitting with Maill. 

1. Ecthelion III DEAD
2. Elbereth Neutral Merchant
3. Mailliw STORMFATHER
4. Silverblade Noble
5. Elenion Duke
6. Arraenae Beggar
7. Master Elodin Merchant
8. The Young Bard Jeskeri
9. Eolhondras Bodyguard
10. Straw DEAD
11. Magestar Jeskeri?
12. Amanuensis Jindo Legionnaire
13. Orlok Pirate
14. Stink Citizen Pirate
15. Conquestor Noble
16. Jaime Veteran
17. Emerald Citizen? Dula
18. Antgrgmn Legionnaire
19. Wilson Jester
20. Araris Beggar
21. The Silver Dragon Noble
22. Burnt Spaghetti Noble
23. Kipper Eliminator-not sure which faction
24. Aonar Bodyguard
25. Alvron LORD OF SHADOWS
26. Renegade Conversion role
27. Lopen Retired Pirate
28. Sart Jeskeri Noble

Above is a list of roles that I have had claimed to me or have proven or deduced. 95% is correct. The other 5% might not be. 

Also, should you wish to learn what the Jeskeri do, I have informed the Neutral roles of that. You will have to convince them to side with the village, at least enough to tell you about the Jeskeri. 

Thanks for the fun time guys! I needed one last throwback to my old games.  Have fun.

 

Emphasis mine. This is just a theory, but I'm starting to wonder if Mailliw's claim of you being a Conversion role was just a coincidence. I think you approached him and claimed you were a conversion role to mislead us, and then after he died you later convinced Elodin to reveal all of that stuff last night to confuse us more. Maybe you pawned it off as a qualifier to get converted onto his team (if he did as you asked, you'd bring him to your side, which likely would give him some benefit that he would deem worth the risk). That's the only thing I can think of that would cause him to behave as he did, other than him just becoming a complete troll.

[TheMightyLopen he/him]

10 minutes ago, Renegade said:

I'd like to point out that Magestar was technically the one who suggested attacking Aman, and he was in the same doc as Aman during the Night.  The question is: why would Magestar choose to have Aman attacked rather than a player that they suspected?

Yes, I know he is the one who suggested it. I was just saying that it was due to Elodin agreeing to target him that made Wilson and Jaime target Aman(in the case where Aman is telling the truth at least). I think Magestar just wasn't really sure who was suspicious at that point, so he suggested someone who he knew was being protected so that he could confirm Elodin did have a kill role available to him.

9 minutes ago, Arraenae said:

I believe Lopen's CSP claim. D2, I noted Straw's death in our PM and said that a villager died for taking the game more seriously. Then I asked Lopen if he really was a citizen.

Lopen said that he unhappy enough and I didn't need to rub it in. Fitting thing for a CSP who just killed a villager to say.

Either Aman or Lopen is a Jeskeri, I think. I don't feel like wading through each of their arguments right now (typing this on mobile in a moving car is giving me enough of a headache as it is). I'll look  at things later.

I think Ren is suspicious for saying so quickly than Aman must be Jeskeri, that he must have organized Wilson's, Magestar's, Jaime's and Elodin's deaths.

Oh, sorry, the fact that I didn't remove my vote might have made my stance unclear. I'm no longer assuming Aman is Jeskeri. I still believe it's possible, but, I'm not so sure now and am leaning towards him being village. Aman.

About Ren, I think he could be a Cultist, but I thought almost exactly the same things he did when the Cycle's results were posted, so I can't really condemn him for that opinion. I was even quite sure about Aman being a Cultist, I just said so in PM's rather than the thread like Ren did. So I don't know.

[Conquestor he/him]

Sorry I haven't been on today yet, I had church and family time. Anywho, what the crap! So many poeple died! Those are som convincing arguments Aman, but some of them are based on ifs. I will however vote for Renegade, because of how frantic he seems and because you are so convincing.

[Renegade he/him]

Well, this turned out infinitely worse than I'd anticipated. Though, I guess I should've realized that I have to be an eliminator because nobody else would dare threaten such a trusted player.

[Arrae]

10 minutes ago, Renegade said:

Well, this turned out infinitely worse than I'd anticipated. Though, I guess I should've realized that I have to be an eliminator because nobody else would dare threaten such a trusted player.

What did you expect?

We haven't even passed the 24 hour mark yet. You still have about 33 hours to make your case about Aman. Who knows? Maybe I'll go home, tally up everybody's arguments, and decide that Aman has duped everyone and must be killed. The lynch isn't set in stone yet. We're still open to new info and arguments.

[STINK he/him]

Can someone do a vote tally?