Bondsmith abilities

[Brackcha he/him]

I was reading through WoR and I noticed the chapter 44 epigraph said there where only 3 bond smiths. And storm father had previously said he was honor's spren could that mean that each bond smith bonded one of the shards godspren? Another interesting bit is that their trait is pious. All together it makes me think the bond smiths could commune with the shards and tell them to make more splinters smithing bondable spren does this make sense?

[Kelsier Kenobi]

Since Dalinar is a Bondsmith we will no doubt find out more about them in Book 3 and I'm very curious.  I get bonding the Spren of Honor and Cultivation, but Odium?  That really doesn't add up for me.  I really want to know why there were only 3.

[Stormgate he/him]

I think the Bondsmiths may have all bonded the same spren. Maybe.

[DrakeMarshall he/him]

One way or another, the Bondsmiths seemed to be not very numerous. Given that most radiant types only bonded one kind of spren... It does make sense that all bondsmiths bond the stormfather. It is possible one might bond the nightwatcher but that just seems unlikely to me. And an odium godspren like one of the unmade... Probably not something a radiant bonds to. I wonder if a voidbringer could gain a new form based on one of the unmade... That would be scary.

[Oversleep]

1 hour ago, Drake Marshall said:

One way or another, the Bondsmiths seemed to be not very numerous. Given that most radiant types only bonded one kind of spren... It does make sense that all bondsmiths bond the stormfather. It is possible one might bond the nightwatcher but that just seems unlikely to me. And an odium godspren like one of the unmade... Probably not something a radiant bonds to. I wonder if a voidbringer could gain a new form based on one of the unmade... That would be scary.

Oh Almighty. A Voidbinding form by merging with one of the Unmade? A godform, perhaps.

That's what never clicked for me on Roshar: on Scadrial, metals coming directly from Shards function outside of the normal powerset. But on Roshar you have to actually bond a Splinter and special Splinters (godspren like Stormform) funtion inside the normal system.

So maybe there is a godform already accounted for? Or maybe not.

[kenod]

What's weird here is that before Honor's death the Stormfather as we know him shouldn't have existed. The current Stormfather came into being after merging with the Cognitive Shadow of Honor. So what did Bondsmiths bond with before that?

[CaptainRyan he/him]

Just now, kenod said:

What's weird here is that before Honor's death the Stormfather as we know him shouldn't have existed. The current Stormfather came into being after merging with the Cognitive Shadow of Honor. So what did Bondsmiths bond with before that?

Probably the Rider of the Storm?

[kenod]

Just now, CaptainRyan said:

Probably the Rider of the Storm?

In that case, they don't need to bond with Godspren. I think someone should ask Mr. Sanderson how many one of a kind Spren there are on Roshar (discounting the Nightwatcher and the Unmade).

[Toaster Retribution he/him]

There might be other dead godspren of Honor, who sprendied when the Radiants broke their oaths. And Stormfather is the last of a kind.

Stormfather himself tells Dalinar that he "will not be bound in any way as to kill me."

So whatever spren the Bondsmiths bonded, they are probably sprendead by now. And they were not Stormfather.

[Pathfinder]

Some theorize it is cusicesh. 

[Sam Script he/him]

Just a theory, hope that it would make sense:

Some has theorized that Bondsmiths bonded with "godspren", the spren of the cognitive projections of religions.

There are not so many religions on Roshar, far more less than Scadrial --- Because the whole Roshar continent shared the same history, thus, similar mythology about Heralds & KR

And so, there might not be too many different religions on ancient Roshar, and so little number of godspren, since godspren are cognitive projections of people's believed divines, like Nu Ralik. Therefore, rare Bondsmiths existed.

Stormfather had been there before Shards arrived, but now he's the "shadow of Almighty", he could be considered godspren as well.

[goody153]

9 hours ago, Stormgate said:

I think the Bondsmiths may have all bonded the same spren. Maybe.

This is what i thought as well.

 Or if it's really 3 godspren then maybe assuming that nightwatcher is of cultivation and is a godspren as well. I don't the third godspren would be of Odium, the 3rd godspren might possibly be a combination of Honor and Cultivation, kinda like Feruchemy is Scadrial is a combination of Ruin and Preservation.

Though Odium probably has his own godspren (apart from everstorm seems like some superspren is controlling it as well ) or it's the first time Odium's own godspren came out.

[ParadoxicalZen he/him]

IIRC from a recent signing WoB, the Stormfather and Nightwatcher are just a level or so above Cusicesh, with the Unmade either the same as Cusi or inbetween. Given we don't know when Honour died exactly, especially in regards to the Recreance, it's hard to say what effects taking up and dispersing a Shard's power does, let alone a spren with a presumably already defined personality possibly absorbing traits from another

[Brackcha he/him]

Found another interesting excerpt:"so melishi retired to his tent and resolved to destroy the voidbringers upon the next day, but that night did present a different stratagem, related to the unique abilities of the bondsmiths; and being hurried he could make no specific account of his progress, it was related to the very nature of the heralds and their divine duties, an attribute the Bondsmiths alone could address." The heralds where created by the shards no? So could them speaking to the shards not make sense in this application? 

Edited July 23, 2016 by Brackcha

[dvoraen]

I think the reason that the Bondsmiths are so few in number is due to one simple reason: Their role is to basically be a leader and example for all to follow.

 

"...their spren was understood to be specific..." which, to me, suggests that the Bondsmith Words are not individual-based as a Lightweaver's are.  Thus, every Bondsmith fulfills a similar role.  There's one problem, though, which is that having too many cooks in the kitchen trying to demonstrate leadership can effectively undermine that very concept.  Too many people struggling to be the leader only results in a lack of leadership; thus, few Bondsmiths.  Dalinar's genesis as a Bondsmith is very telling, I think, particularly the Second Ideal.

 

As to their abilities, the one of most interest would be their non-Surge ability to manipulate bonds.  If Dalinar can unbind a Shardblade just like that, without any concentration, then he could theoretically do similar to other people engaged in such a bond.  Or to a Voidspren-bonded Listener, and so on.  Plus, if the epigraph about how only a Bondsmith can encroach upon responsibilities meant for the Heralds, then they really get stuff done with their tertiary abilities.

(It's why I think Dalinar will end up being the one to figure out how to 'reawaken' the potential of the Honorblades, and/or unlock the Oathgate network.)

Edited July 25, 2016 by dvoraen

[StormyQueen she/her]

It is also possible that it is Godspren that bondsmiths bond with, as, if my memory serves me correctly, it said that at most, there were three. This could mean that normally there could be one or two, rather than three. 

Personally I find it unlikely that there are three bondsmiths, matching three shards. Also, it would be appropriate, given their jobs as leaders, or at least I find. But then again, who really knows?

[Khyrindor he/him]

I asked Brandon a few years ago about God Surges, and he said that they exist, but weren't the ones I was thinking. I shall search for the WoB, I figure it may relate to what you're all saying.

 

Quote

KHYRINDOR

Are there Surges that could be considered as God Surges, like the God metals on Scadrial?

BRANDON SANDERSON (PARAPHRASED)

Yes.

KHYRINDOR

Progression and Adhesion, perhaps?

BRANDON SANDERSON (PARAPHRASED)

No, but they could be considered as such

Then, a few days later, someone followed up the question:

Quote

QUESTION

The "God Surges" you mentioned recently, are they a part of the Way of Kings frontsheet?

BRANDON SANDERSON

All I said regarding this was to tell a fan that it was possible to make an analogy between the god metals on Scadrial and certain powers on Roshar. However, these are not a codified part of the magic system.

Link.

So I guess that goes to show how specific may not even be as specific as you like, however, this shows that there are surges that can be considered god surges. One of those is Adhesion, which I believe is one of the Bondsmith's yes? May be a connection...

[Three1415]

16 minutes ago, Khyrindor said:

I asked Brandon a few years ago about God Surges, and he said that they exist, but weren't the ones I was thinking. I shall search for the WoB, I figure it may relate to what you're all saying.

 

Then, a few days later, someone followed up the question:

Link.

So I guess that goes to show how specific may not even be as specific as you like, however, this shows that there are surges that can be considered god surges. One of those is Adhesion, which I believe is one of the Bondsmith's yes? May be a connection...

Well, this makes sense. It's pretty widely accepted that the Heralds/Stormlight/KR are all born from a fusion of Honor and Cultivation's power, and therefore the 'God Surges' would be those that express a 'pure' aspect of each: Progression for Cultivation, as it is directly aligned with her Intent (growth and advancement), and in the same vein Adhesion for Honor (binding things together).

Likewise, the KR can be thought of as existing on a sliding scale between expressions of Honor's or Cultivation's power; Bondsmiths, farthest towards the former, necessarily use Adhesion (as, again, it is the closest Surge to Honor's Intent), and Truthwatchers, closest towards the latter, utilize Progression.

Edited July 25, 2016 by Three1415

[galendo]

On 7/22/2016 at 8:23 AM, Brackcha said:

I was reading through WoR and I noticed the chapter 44 epigraph said there where only 3 bond smiths. And storm father had previously said he was honor's spren could that mean that each bond smith bonded one of the shards godspren? Another interesting bit is that their trait is pious. All together it makes me think the bond smiths could commune with the shards and tell them to make more splinters smithing bondable spren does this make sense?

I mean, maybe, but couldn't the Shards just decide to make more spren themselves if they wanted to?  Can't say I really buy into this theory.  I suspect the name is more about smithing (forging) bonds between people.  They're the ones that bring people together for the cause.  Presumably they also help smooth away the conflicts that occur when the other orders' Ideals don't quite align.  The peacemakers, if you will.

8 hours ago, dvoraen said:

I think the reason that the Bondsmiths are so few in number is due to one simple reason: Their role is to basically be a leader and example for all to follow.

I'm not sure that they're meant to be the leaders or even the examples; at least, not more so than any other order.  Dalinar certainly is both, of course, but it's worth remembering that Jezrien was the Heralds' leader, not Ishar.  The Windrunner, not the Bondsmith.  As mentioned above, I see them more as peacemakers rather than leaders (their First Ideal, remember, is something along the lines of "I will bring people together").  Though I confess I've never quite understood why Jezrien was in charge.  What made him so special?

Quote

As to their abilities, the one of most interest would be their non-Surge ability to manipulate bonds.  If Dalinar can unbind a Shardblade just like that, without any concentration, then he could theoretically do similar to other people engaged in such a bond.  Or to a Voidspren-bonded Listener, and so on.  Plus, if the epigraph about how only a Bondsmith can encroach upon responsibilities meant for the Heralds, then they really get stuff done with their tertiary abilities.

I'm not so sure about this.  It seems like everyone can unbind a Shardblade "just like that."  Szeth does it with the Honorblade in the new version of WoR, and one of Adolin's dueling opponents does the same thing when he lost and had to surrender his shards.  Dalinar does it in WoK, too, when he gives his blade to Sadeas, and he's not really a Bondsmith at that point.  I don't doubt that Bondsmiths can do cool things (or at least, I'd be disappointed if they couldn't, considering their spren is the storming Stormfather), but the ability to break one's own bond to a Shardblade shouldn't be taken as evidence that they can do the same thing to other people.

[kenod]

1 hour ago, galendo said:

I'm not so sure about this.  It seems like everyone can unbind a Shardblade "just like that."  Szeth does it with the Honorblade in the new version of WoR, and one of Adolin's dueling opponents does the same thing when he lost and had to surrender his shards.  Dalinar does it in WoK, too, when he gives his blade to Sadeas, and he's not really a Bondsmith at that point.  I don't doubt that Bondsmiths can do cool things (or at least, I'd be disappointed if they couldn't, considering their spren is the storming Stormfather), but the ability to break one's own bond to a Shardblade shouldn't be taken as evidence that they can do the same thing to other people.

What @dvoraen probably meant was the fact that Dalinar said that it normally takes a lot of effort to unbind a blade, but when he unbonded his new Shardblade it was extremely easy.

[Erklitt]

About the quick unbondings: I think we just have to admit that even Brandon is not absolutely perfect.  I believe that the reason for Danlinar just sticking his Blade into the ground without any visible unbonding process in WoK is that at that time, this process hadn't yet been defined. Szeth is different: he had an Honorblade, and there is a WoB that Honorblades can't be bound, they can only be given. So just mentally 'giving it back' or rather 'reject the continuation of the gift' might be enough.

As for Dalinar quickly unbonding the second blade, I had always thought the Stormfather did that. But I like the idea of that being due to Dalinar's newfound strength with bonds.

[thegatorgirl00 she/her]

I always thought that he was able to unbind the second shardblade so easily because he was a Radiant and it was connected to hearing the screams. We had just never seen a Radiant bonded to a dead shardblade before. I agree that it would be cool if it was connected to his Bondsmith abilities, though. 

[Rasarr she/her]

5 hours ago, galendo said:

I'm not sure that they're meant to be the leaders or even the examples; at least, not more so than any other order.  Dalinar certainly is both, of course, but it's worth remembering that Jezrien was the Heralds' leader, not Ishar.  The Windrunner, not the Bondsmith.  As mentioned above, I see them more as peacemakers rather than leaders (their First Ideal, remember, is something along the lines of "I will bring people together").  Though I confess I've never quite understood why Jezrien was in charge.  What made him so special?

A bit off-topic (not much I can bring to this conversation, though it's interesting): Jezrien was a king before the whole Herald gig, which would probably predispose him to lead and rule better than the other nine, what with lifelong training and actual practice. We've got to remember that Heralds are more than just their powers and attributes.

[maxal she/her]

I would pitch in and state the reason Dalinar is able to easily unbound his second Shardblade was due to his proto-Radiant status. Already, he had noticed an ill-feeling upon bonding it. Reversely, unbounding Oathbrigner with whom he had a deeper relationship was harder, but not as hard as it should have been,

Dalinar does state unbounding a Shardblade is the hardest command to send. The fact it was easy does indicate something, but I doubt it has to do with his Bondsmith powers. I suspect Renarin would unbound his just as easily. 

 

[Magestar he/him]

In my copy, he comments on how it was way easier than it should have been, I think.  I will have to check that, but if Brandon put in the book that it was easier, he likely has an explanation for it.