(Warbreaker Spoilers) Conflict of Szeth and his New Sword

[Radiant Returned he/him]

I just finished re-reading Warbreaker and I noticed something pertinent Sanderson mentioned about Nightblood in one of the annotations:

Quote

So, he pretty much just lets whoever is holding him decide what is evil. And if the one holding the sword determines - deep within their heart - that they are evil themselves, then they will end up killing themselves with the sword.

So my question is if we could see Szeth run into some very big problems when trying to use Nightblood in SA3. We know that throughout the story he has suffered from the guilt of the murders he's committed, and the agony he has at realizing he was never really Truthless drives him almost insane to the point to where he just lets Kaladin kill him. This to me points very strongly to Szeth "determining deep within his heart that he is evil", so if that's the case isn't there a good chance Nightblood will try to kill him?

[KnightRadiant she/her]

Oooh wow. That's something I would like to see. It sounds like that would totally be possible, and from Brandon himself, we know that SA3 was supposed to be Szeth's book. That could mean that there are still be some things left over for a Szeth character arc, even if it's Dalinar's book now. This sort of thing, where Szeth is basically struggling against himself, would make total sense. 

[Sunbird she/her]

Oooh I didn't know that's how Nightblood operated. Good to know! Now I'm super hoping you are right about Szeth's issues with the sword.

[+Zodiac he/him]

I was under the impression that the reason that Nightblood would work well with him was because he stuck to his oaths despite it tearing him up inside. I think the real conflict would be if Szeth did something that nightblood considered evil, like breaking his oaths, turning against the heralds, etc. 

[goody153]

damnation i never thought of Szeth seeing himself as guilty and evil + nightblood killing him due to that. That's pretty cool. 

But if lets say Vasher before doesn't really see himself as somebody good then it shouldn't be a problem, right? 

[Landis963 he/him]

10 minutes ago, goody153 said:

damnation i never thought of Szeth seeing himself as guilty and evil + nightblood killing him due to that. That's pretty cool. 

But if lets say Vasher before doesn't really see himself as somebody good then it shouldn't be a problem, right? 

Nalan brings this up, expressing doubts about Szeth's "ability to... judge."  I think the initial takeaway from the scene is that Szeth is convinced (rightly) that he was not at fault for becoming Truthless, and therefore (perhaps less rightly) he's not evil enough to kill himself with Nightblood.  "I was right, and they... they were wrong."  That being said, I really hope he takes a little responsibility, regardless of whether or not Nightblood is in play.  

[Radiant Returned he/him]

This is pretty spoilery for Warbreaker so here's my explanation for Vasher:

Spoiler

Vasher acknowledged the evil things he had done, but he was actively trying to be a good person and make up for his mistakes by keeping the peace. So I don't think he intrinsically viewed himself as evil. 

The exception is like @Landis963 said and Szeth views himself as trying to fix the evil he had done and blames his actions on his people. But, with how much guilt Szeth has I think it's likely that there are at least a few moments where he struggles controlling Nightblood. I mean IIRC he talks about constantly hearing the voices in his head of those he's killed. That's some serious guilt and self-hatred. 

[goody153]

Just now, Landis963 said:

Nalan brings this up, expressing doubts about Szeth's "ability to... judge."  I think the initial takeaway from the scene is that Szeth is convinced (rightly) that he was not at fault for becoming Truthless, and therefore (perhaps less rightly) he's not evil enough to kill himself with Nightblood.  "I was right, and they... they were wrong."  That being said, I really hope he takes a little responsibility, regardless of whether or not Nightblood is in play.  

Speaking of taking responsibilities, it took me awhile to realize that there's a contrast on the way Kaladin and Szeth works. Kaladin takes responsibility of everything and Szeth doesn't. Not sure if Sanderson made it intentional but it's a cool contrast

[+Kolten]

Cool contrast indeed

Nale tells him that he will show Sezth a way to be free from emotion as he carries out justice, or something to that effect. Maybe nightblood is some crazy high stakes way to train him to do that. Either learn to not feel or you will kill yourself, seems like Nale's style . . .

[Eki]

It's also interesting that Szeth didn't feel any nausea when looking at and touching Nightblood...

Though he had just died, so maybe he had other things to worry about.

Edit: He didn't feel the urge to possess the sword either, so maybe Nightblood just works differently off-world.

Edited July 23, 2016 by Eki

[Argel he/him]

20 hours ago, KnightRadiant said:

and from Brandon himself, we know that SA3 was supposed to be Szeth's book. That could mean that there are still be some things left over for a Szeth character arc, even if it's Dalinar's book now.

Szeth's book will be SA4 or SA5 now. So there's a lot left to the story. He also may see the old Szeth as evil. 

[The Ninja Yodeler he/him]

On 7/22/2016 at 9:07 PM, Patricksinger said:

I was under the impression that the reason that Nightblood would work well with him was because he stuck to his oaths despite it tearing him up inside. I think the real conflict would be if Szeth did something that nightblood considered evil, like breaking his oaths, turning against the heralds, etc. 

I dont think Nightblood really cares one way or another about upholding oaths, or about the Heralds. Maybe Szeth would see it as evil, and then Nightblood would then cause him to kill himslef. But that would only be because of Szeths views on the subjects, and even then, he'd have to see it as evil and not just wrong or immoral.

[Khyrindor he/him]

Don't forget that Nightblood is basically an artificial spren. One reason he didn't tempt Vasher or Denth is because he had bonds with them. If he chose to Bond with Szeth, then I don't think Szeth would kill himself with him. Plus, Szeth is now being brainwashed by Nale to blame others, so even if that bond didn't happen, I think Szeth would not think of himself as evil at this point. That said, I would enjoy that kind of depressing storyline. 

[Argel he/him]

Now that I think about it, Szeth would not himself as evil. He would see the murders he committed as Truthless as evil acts perpetuated by the religious leaders of the Shin who declared him Truthless. Which is one more reason why he is headed there. 

[Mason Wheeler]

On 7/24/2016 at 3:47 AM, Khyrindor said:

Don't forget that Nightblood is basically an artificial spren. One reason he didn't tempt Vasher or Denth is because he had bonds with them.

IIRC the actual WOB on the subject (can't find the reference at the moment) is that Nightblood decides that anyone who draws him and survives must not be evil, and that's why he doesn't tempt Vasher: because he's done it.

[Argel he/him]

It's been a very long time since I read Warbreaker -- is it possible for one person to bond with Nightblood and then loan it to another to use? In other words, could Nale have bonded Nightbloood and that's why Szeth doesn't feel anything?

[Radiant Returned he/him]

From annotations I read it implied that the bond Nightblood had with people, at least on Nalthis, wasn't exclusive. It was more like once you used it and survived you were bonded, so both Vasher and Denth were bonded to the sword to an extent. 

[DSC01 he/him]

Remember, the Nahel bond is unique to Roshar. Nightblood is an artificial spren, of sorts, but what he did on Nalthis is not like the Nahel bond. What he does on Roshar, on the other hand, will be. That isn't to say that there won't be something along the lines of what the OP mentions, where Szeth feels compelled to kill himself, but it seems like some people are making the assumption that what we've already seen in Warbreaker characterizes how Nightblood is going to work on Roshar. I do not think that that is the case at all.

[Argel he/him]

3 hours ago, DSC01 said:

what he did on Nalthis is not like the Nahel bond. What he does on Roshar, on the other hand, will be

Can we be sure of that? We talk about Hoid using Yolish Lightweaving on Roshar, not Rosharan Lightweaving, so why would Nightblood's bonding process change on Roshar? 

[ParadoxicalZen he/him]

I don't think the process will change, just the effects of the bond will be a lot more noticeable. Remember, NB was an attempt to recreate one magic system using another so it is possible there might be some minor changes.

[Nomod_Cal he/him]

On 7/22/2016 at 4:10 PM, Radiant Returned said:

I just finished re-reading Warbreaker and I noticed something pertinent Sanderson mentioned about Nightblood in one of the annotations:

So my question is if we could see Szeth run into some very big problems when trying to use Nightblood in SA3. We know that throughout the story he has suffered from the guilt of the murders he's committed, and the agony he has at realizing he was never really Truthless drives him almost insane to the point to where he just lets Kaladin kill him. This to me points very strongly to Szeth "determining deep within his heart that he is evil", so if that's the case isn't there a good chance Nightblood will try to kill him?

I don't really think that Szeth really find himself to be evil but he believes that those who he served used him to do their own evil. Though he does obviously believe the things they had him do were wrong. He swore to serve the one who carries his oath stone and did what he did justifying it to himself because of his oath. I even believe his internal conflict regarding most of his kills when he wishes for someone to be better then him shows a piece of him wanting the avenge those he killed by dying himself. Overall making it seem that he doesn't really find what he's doing evil in its own right but the people he serves are that much more abominable.

[Radiant Returned he/him]

The more I've thought about it the more I agree with you, it's not going to be an issue (at least early in SA3, though I still think there is potential for that being an issue in the future). I do think though, that if Szeth had acquired Nightblood earlier in WoR, like right after he came across Kaladin for the first time, Nightblood would've killed him.

[Argel he/him]

3 hours ago, Radiant Returned said:

like right after he came across Kaladin for the first time, Nightblood would've killed him.

With all the doubts going on, he could have seen himself as evil long enough for Nightblood to act. I still think it's iffy, but it's plausible. I like it!

Something else to consider is if Nightblood sees something his owner considers evil -- such as the Death Rattle facility Mr. T shows Szeth -- and Szeth refuses to do anything about it how could that play out? Turning a blind eye to murder sounds kind of evil  and we know Szeth perceives it that way in that scene. 

[Massik he/him]

I don't think Szeth was ever really evil.  He didn't want to kill those people, or rather, it wasn't his desire to.  He was bound by oath- bound by honor- to do what he did.  The fact that it eats at his soul, says to me deeds done weren't his actions.  He was a tool.  A blade isn't evil, even if the one weilding it migjt be. 

Aside from that, my takeaway is that Szeth actually died and was brought back; reborn, and thus his slate is clean.  

Though, I imagine he will have to feed Nightblood stormlight so he won't die, just as Vasher had to do with breaths.  

Then again, we don't know what has happened with nightblood since leaving Nalthis.  He was created, could he habe been augmemted?

[Argel he/him]

2 hours ago, Massik said:

Aside from that, my takeaway is that Szeth actually died and was brought back; reborn, and thus his slate is clean.

We do not know if being brought back to life actually changed anything anything or if Szeth was just manipulated by Nale into thinking that. The kind of conditioning Szeth has undergone would make that kind of manipulation child's play. 

 

2 hours ago, Massik said:

it wasn't his desire to

Except he's starting to get past that by the end of WoR. Go back and re-read the final attempt on Dalinar, where he adds Adolin (IIRC) to the list.