Diagram vs. Radiants

[DrakeMarshall he/him]

On 8/30/2016 at 7:54 AM, hwiles said:

During the Recreance, almost all of the Radiants, the sworn protectors of humanity who had sheltered them through the last desolation and adhered to strict codes of conduct, enforced by their spren, that, at least partially, disallowed them from abusing their powers, came together and decided they had had enough and were done playing.  Probably the most honorable and dedicated heroes of Roshar, almost unanimously and simultaneously, came to the realization that they really didn't want to be Radiants anymore, even if it meant killing their spren, who, judging by Kaladin and Syl's relationship, were pretty close and intimate friends.

I'd say that whatever secret was revealed to instigate this action was, 1) Extremely shocking and unexpected, 2) Completely counter to the basic ideas of having radiant orders, and 3) Indicates (whether correctly or incorrectly we won't know for a long time) in some way that the existence of Radiants probably endangers the entire human race.

It seems unlikely to me that the Radiants would have abandoned their oaths just to save their own skins, IE: if the spren are taking something from them, or eating their souls when they die, ect. more of them would probably have chosen to just deal with that in order to avoid killing their spren.  This implies to me that the revelation was probably much more horrific than just personal loss.

Unless...could Radiants have been getting sent to Damnation to fuel the Oathpact upon dying...?   Faced with an eternity in hell (assuming radiants don't get resurrected like heralds) for their human, I could see the spren insisting that the Radiants give up their oaths...

Hm... That's something I hadn't considered.

We see a lot of people (even a herald like Nalan) assuming that the coming of the radiants will cause the coming of the voidbringers, not the other way around.

Now, it's easy to just say that the sons of honor are misguided and all that is a big mistake.

But it keeps happening.

What if the radiants really are literally causing the desolations by their presence? What if their presence is like a challenge to Odium, and it causes them and the voidbringers to inevitably clash?

That might be a reason why radiants would stop being radiants. To stop desolations.

And yet... I think that's not why they broke their oaths. Frankly, in Dalinar's vision it really just didn't seem like they were doing what they did as some kind of selfless sacrifice for the prosperity of the human race. It seemed like they had been broken somehow.

Also, while it could have been some kind of momentous event, I really do not think it was honor leaving them. Because Tanavast was alive during the recreance, else he wouldn't have been able to show that vision to Dalinar because he is bad at future sight.

[asterion137 he/him]

The Tukarian God-king has more power than the Diagram. Besides, the Radiants are connected to Azir and Alethkar, which may be the two largest kingdoms in Roshar now that Jah Keved's military is decimated. This puts them out of the Diagramists' weight class by several orders of magnitude.

[Spoolofwhool]

1 hour ago, Drake Marshall said:

Hm... That's something I hadn't considered.

We see a lot of people (even a herald like Nalan) assuming that the coming of the radiants will cause the coming of the voidbringers, not the other way around.

Now, it's easy to just say that the sons of honor are misguided and all that is a big mistake.

But it keeps happening.

What if the radiants really are literally causing the desolations by their presence? What if their presence is like a challenge to Odium, and it causes them and the voidbringers to inevitably clash?

That might be a reason why radiants would stop being radiants. To stop desolations.

And yet... I think that's not why they broke their oaths. Frankly, in Dalinar's vision it really just didn't seem like they were doing what they did as some kind of selfless sacrifice for the prosperity of the human race. It seemed like they had been broken somehow.

Also, while it could have been some kind of momentous event, I really do not think it was honor leaving them. Because Tanavast was alive during the recreance, else he wouldn't have been able to show that vision to Dalinar because he is bad at future sight.

Except that it seems pretty clear that the first Radiants came after the first Desolation since they were copying the Heralds' powers of Surgebinding to protect the people as well. Unless the idea is that the further Desolations after the first came as a result of the Radiants? I have to agree though, I don't get the feeling that they gave up their oaths as a sacrifice to protect people. I'm still of the opinion that it the Recreance was tied to them growing corrupt, but there was a specific trigger which initiated it.

[nervousnerd he/him]

Quote

Then he drove it point-first into the stone plain. Dalinar blinked. The Shardbearer removed his helm, exposing a handsome head with blond hair and pale skin, light as that of a man from Shinovar.

Quote

They were of all races and nationalities, dark skin and light, some with white Thaylen eyebrows, others with the skin ripples of the Selay. They walked with eyes forward, not speaking to one another, steps slow but resolute.

Right now the Radiants we have seen are in Alethkar and Azir but we have more to meet. Ym was Iriali. The quotes above connect them to all races. Do you mean that because we have seen surgebinders in those places that their armies would side with the Radiants or do you mean that Radiants will only come from those nations? I am confused.

27 minutes ago, asterion137 said:

The Tukarian God-king has more power than the Diagram. Besides, the Radiants are connected to Azir and Alethkar, which may be the two largest kingdoms in Roshar now that Jah Keved's military is decimated. This puts them out of the Diagramists' weight class by several orders of magnitude.

Do we know anything about Tukar? But anyway, Tukar is already at war with Emul. If he has power, it is likely otherwise engaged at the moment.

You forget. The Diagram is about planning. Taravangian won Jah Kaved without a single sword or spear. His plan is not about fighting (even if a lot of deaths are involved). It is about being secretive and obtaining power through manipulation of others. Dalinar blesses him and thinks he plans to bring peace to Jah Kaved. Right now the Radiants do not oppose him. Also, we do not know the true size of the Diagram. There could be sleepers like Graves all over the place just waiting for orders.

 

[DrakeMarshall he/him]

We don't know a lot about the different powers that be. The diagram and the radiants are definitely two major world powers right now... But there could be others. The ghostbloods might not have as central of a role, but being cosmere aware they are also somewhat transcendent over some of the factions which might have more raw power. I also wonder what role exactly the heralds are playing in all of this, because I have a feeling that their interests are likely to be represented in some way or other (we know some small amount of what Nalan is up to but very little of the others).

Also speaking of what Nalan is up to... Does it seem really strange to anyone else that he would kill off other radiants, but then end up initiating someone into his own order by the end of things? Maybe the coming of the desolation changed his mind though (after all, why get rid of the radiants if the desolation has already started?).

[Eki]

9 hours ago, Drake Marshall said:

Also speaking of what Nalan is up to... Does it seem really strange to anyone else that he would kill off other radiants, but then end up initiating someone into his own order by the end of things? Maybe the coming of the desolation changed his mind though (after all, why get rid of the radiants if the desolation has already started?).

That, and the fact that as far as we know, Nalan's Skybreakers probably aren't actually Surgebinders. No proof of that yet, of course, but it seems likely.

[DrakeMarshall he/him]

WoR spoiler:

Spoiler

Well that would explain why he would like the idea of nightblood since it doesn't really require surgebinding to grant someone power. Even so... WoBs imply that nightblood is fulfilling the purpose of a full shardblade. This in turn implies surgebinding.

 

[DrakeMarshall he/him]

21 hours ago, Drake Marshall said:

We see a lot of people (even a herald like Nalan) assuming that the coming of the radiants will cause the coming of the voidbringers, not the other way around.

Now, it's easy to just say that the sons of honor are misguided and all that is a big mistake.

But it keeps happening.

What if the radiants really are literally causing the desolations by their presence? What if their presence is like a challenge to Odium, and it causes them and the voidbringers to inevitably clash?

Earlier I said this. It is still worth considering why so many people think this way.

But it is also worth noting that Taravangian disagrees with this view. It is written in the diagram:

"Obviously they are fools The Desolation needs no usher It can and will sit where it wishes and the signs are obvious that the spren anticipate it doing so soon The Ancient of Stones must finally begin to crack It is a wonder that upon his will rested the prosperity and peace of a world for over four millennia"

"The Desolation needs no usher" means that Taravangian does not agree with those who believe radiants cause desolations. Now, Taravangian isn't infallible by any menas from what I have seen, but this is still interesting.

Also, "Ancient of Stones" obviously means Talenel. So according to the diagram, the desolation was delayed because Talenel deliberately endured torment to keep it from happening. This means that the diagram believes the heralds coming will cause the desolation, not the radiants. Taravangian seems to believe that once Talenel cracks and chooses to return from damnation, the next desolation will be unleashed.

Hoid calls Talenel "late" however, which implies that he should have returned earlier and not later like the diagram implies. So Hoid does not agree with the diagram on this matter.

The implications are rather interesting in all of this. There seem to be multiple views on what actually causes the desolations. We don't know enough about the oath pact I think.

[Spoolofwhool]

53 minutes ago, Drake Marshall said:

Earlier I said this. It is still worth considering why so many people think this way.

But it is also worth noting that Taravangian disagrees with this view. It is written in the diagram:

"Obviously they are fools The Desolation needs no usher It can and will sit where it wishes and the signs are obvious that the spren anticipate it doing so soon The Ancient of Stones must finally begin to crack It is a wonder that upon his will rested the prosperity and peace of a world for over four millennia"

"The Desolation needs no usher" means that Taravangian does not agree with those who believe radiants cause desolations. Now, Taravangian isn't infallible by any menas from what I have seen, but this is still interesting.

Also, "Ancient of Stones" obviously means Talenel. So according to the diagram, the desolation was delayed because Talenel deliberately endured torment to keep it from happening. This means that the diagram believes the heralds coming will cause the desolation, not the radiants. Taravangian seems to believe that once Talenel cracks and chooses to return from damnation, the next desolation will be unleashed.

Hoid calls Talenel "late" however, which implies that he should have returned earlier and not later like the diagram implies. So Hoid does not agree with the diagram on this matter.

The implications are rather interesting in all of this. There seem to be multiple views on what actually causes the desolations. We don't know enough about the oath pact I think.

I think what the Diagram is implying is that the appearance of the Heralds are what indicate that another Desolation is coming, because they succumbed in Damnation to the torture and were returned to Roshar to prepare the people. Hoid called Talenel late because the Desolation was already nearly upon them, and there was no time for Talenel to teach them the skills they needed to properly survive, which is what the Heralds did previously. 

[DrakeMarshall he/him]

Yes... But Talelenel didn't really have any skills to teach them this time. Once upon a time, the Heralds taught humanity to relearn their culture and reclaim basic technology like bronze forging. Without desolations holding it back, society has advanced normally for many, many years. Alethkar has developed beyond what the heralds would probably be able to teach them (In technology and culture, anyway. I daresay the Heralds could still teach modern Roshar a thing about the radiant orders or the nature of the oath pact).

Anyway. Those details aside. It is true that Hoid probably called Taln late because the desolation was nearly there. What I am saying is that this implies that Taln's presence is not firmly fixed to the desolations, or so Hoid thinks.

But Taravangian's diagram seems to directly contradict that. He seems to attribute the coming of a desolation to Taln's will slowly fracturing and him not being able to stay in damnation forever.

[Argel he/him]

50 minutes ago, Drake Marshall said:

What I am saying is that this implies that Taln's presence is not firmly fixed to the desolations, or so Hoid thinks.

I think in the past the heralds returned earlier so there was enough time to get everyone back up to speed on knowledge, so I do not think there is any contradiction. W=It may have taken Taln longer to return to Roshar as well, being barely functional. 

Edited September 2, 2016 by Argel

[Jondesu he/him]

In another thread, btw, we were speculating that Taln may have been waylaid or delayed intentionally by a group on Roshar (the Stone Shamans were specifically what was being guessed).  How likely that is is up for grabs, but it's possible Taln wasn't there earlier not because he was in such bad shape, but because he had opposition (in addition to Odium, possibly).

The post explaining the theory I'm referencing:

jW

[DrakeMarshall he/him]

You know, I never really thought of the possibility that the Stone Shamans relate to Talenel

I guess that makes a lot of sense though. There is something there.

 

EDIT: Also another interesting though about this... The diagram doesn't necessarily require Taravangian that much anymore. I could potentially see Taravangian dying in a future book, but the diagramists moving forward with everything with only a slight agenda change. Just an interesting thought.

Edited September 3, 2016 by Drake Marshall