Origin of Stone Shamanism

[Krandacth]

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WoR Chapter 41 epigraph about the Recreance (?):

This act of great villainy went beyond the impudence which had hitherto been ascribed to the orders; as the fighting was particularly intense at this time, many attributed this act to a sense of inherent betrayal; and after they withdrew, about two thousand made assault upon them, destroying much of their membership; but this was only nine of the ten, as one said they would not abandon their arms and flee, but instead entertained great subterfuge at the expense of the other nine.  -- From Words of Radiance, chapter 38, page 20

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WoR Chapter I-10, what the Stone Shamans (?) told Szeth:

The Voidbringers are no more. The spirits of the stones themselves promised it. The powers of old are no more. The Knights Radiant are fallen. We are all that remains.

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WoR Chapter 88:

"My people have the Honorblades, and have kept them safe for millennia." -- Szeth

Are the Shin Stone Shamans the descendants/remnants/legacy of an Order of Knights Radiant that did not fall at the Recreance? Is that why they have all the Honorblades?

As a slightly separate but related point: Was the only Order of Radiants that didn't feel betrayed, and so renounce their oaths, the one Order whose Heraldic Patron didn't lie to them about the desolations, i.e. Taln and the Stonewards?

In which case, does this tie back to the theory that the Stone Shamans (the organisation that teaches that Stone is sacred and ward against its being walked upon) are the legacy of the Stonewards? Or is that a bit too much of a stretch? :-P

[Yata he/him]

There are others who proposed this theory on the Forum...we don't actually know much more about The Missing Order. I will only post it a WoB who said that the Recreance didn't happened as consequence of Heralds' Action with Taln

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QUESTION

Was the Almighty still alive when the Heralds packed it in, and did the Radiants pack it in in direct response to what the Heralds did?

BRANDON SANDERSON

The Radiants did NOT abandon their post as a response to the Heralds. The Radiants abandoned it for some other reason which will become evident eventually. The Almighty was still around when the Heralds did their thing.

Probably is relevant for developing your idea/theory

Edited September 17, 2016 by Yata

[Krandacth]

11 minutes ago, Yata said:

There are others who proposed this theory on the Forum...we don't actually know much more about The Missing Order.

I did try and find similar theories using the search, but didn't find anything that posited that the Stone Shamans are the Missing Order.  But then, the search function is notoriously hard to use if you phrase your theory differently to previous ones! :-P

13 minutes ago, Yata said:

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QUESTION

Was the Almighty still alive when the Heralds packed it in, and did the Radiants pack it in in direct response to what the Heralds did?

BRANDON SANDERSON

The Radiants did NOT abandon their post as a response to the Heralds. The Radiants abandoned it for some other reason which will become evident eventually. The Almighty was still around when the Heralds did their thing.

Probably is relevant for developing your idea/theory

Hmmm, useful.  I'm not suggesting that it was a specific response (as I'm sure the Recreance would have happened much sooner otherwise); also, another Desolation didn't happen, so I don't believe the KRs would have suspected that the Heralds had lied.  I'm suggesting merely that the Heralds abandoning the Oathpact, and/or the act of lying regarding winning, are connected to the betrayal the Knights felt; probably indirectly; perhaps Spiritually?

Anyway, I'm not willing to give up on the symmetry of "nine of ten X broke their oath(s)(pact)", even if one was not a response to the other.

[thegatorgirl00 she/her]

In Dalinar's vision of the Recreance, he witnesses some Stonewards breaking their oaths. So they can't be the faithful order. 

I agree that the symmetry is suspicious, though. 

[Krandacth]

5 minutes ago, thegatorgirl00 said:

In Dalinar's vision of the Recreance, he witnesses some Stonewards breaking their oaths.

Ah, of course :-(

Though I've only seen that said on this forum. How do we know they were Stonewards? I assume I've just missed the pertinent WoBs.

[thegatorgirl00 she/her]

It actually says in the chapter. 

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“…the Order of the Stonewards, my lord,” the still-mounted scout was saying. “And a large number of Windrunners. All on foot.”

WoK ch52

[The One Who Connects he/him]

9 of 10 Heralds (coincidence that only 1 died)

9 of 10 Orders (??)

9 of 10 Oathgates (speculation about buildings on top of them and weight/Stormlight limits)

There is still something odd going on. Individual "explaining away" in parentheses. Together though...

[Krandacth]

@thegatorgirl00 Wow, that is quite the oversight on my part! Thanks :-)

So, ok, what Order have/do people think was the Missing Order? They "entertained great subterfuge at the expense of the other nine." So presumably they were more of Cultivation than of Honor. And presumably they are not of one of the Orders we have seen. That can't leave many, but on my phone and my knowledge of this side of things is noticeably lacking :-S

[thegatorgirl00 she/her]

 

20 minutes ago, Krandacth said:

@thegatorgirl00 Wow, that is quite the oversight on my part! Thanks :-)

So, ok, what Order have/do people think was the Missing Order? They "entertained great subterfuge at the expense of the other nine." So presumably they were more of Cultivation than of Honor. And presumably they are not of one of the Orders we have seen. That can't leave many, but on my phone and my knowledge of this side of things is noticeably lacking :-S

No problem  

It's easier to eliminate the orders we know weren't the faithful order and use process of elimination. 

Windrunners, Lightweavers, Edgedancers, Elsecallers, and Stonewards all almost certainly broke their oaths, based on the vision and comments by the spren. That leaves half the orders. Of the ones left, the Truthwatchers had a reputation for being secretive, so they always seemed the most likely to me. 

I also remember someone mentioning the connection between the punishment of being Truthless and the name Truthwatchers. 

[Krandacth]

@thegatorgirl00 This makes a lot of sense, what with their spren being very much of Cultivation (see heavily-Cultivation abilities of Growth, Lightweaving (creation of lies, so not of Honour), Foretelling) and suited to "great subterfuge" via Lightweaving and Foretelling.  However, I feel it is unlikely that their spren would start "returning" with the others if the order never really fell in the first place...  On the other hand, it is the only Order in which we have seen more than one spren "returning" to Bond with humans (Ym and Renarin).  On the fourth hand (?!), the timing suggests that Renarin was only approached after Ym was killed, so maybe they were still sending one at a time...

Tl;dr, I go back and fourth about Truthwatchers :-P

[Jondesu he/him]

2 hours ago, thegatorgirl00 said:

Of the ones left, the Truthwatchers had a reputation for being secretive, so they always seemed the most likely to me.

Since we know so little about Glys, perhaps there's something to that.  Maybe Brandon hasn't wanted us to know about him or Renarin's path to being a Radiant so far, because the Truthwatchers never disappeared, so Glys is fully functional and has been teaching Renarin about the Radiants from the perspective of a Spren whose Knight didn't kill him in the Recreance?

jW

[Eki]

The Order of the Dustbringer is another one that's a bit of an outsider. They don't seem to fit very much with Shin culture though.

[Sand Master]

Not to get the thread off topic, but I just want to get a quick clarification. Often lately I've seen people refer to an Order or a spren as being "more of Cultivation/Honor," but as far as I was aware, there wasn't any WoB confirmation on whether or not Cultivation actually had anything to do with the orders and spren. I thought it was just a fan theory, but that of course doesn't mean I couldn't have missed something. Could someone clarify whether it's been confirmed, or if we're just accepting that theory as correct for now?

[Eki]

1 minute ago, Sand Master said:

Not to get the thread off topic, but I just want to get a quick clarification. Often lately I've seen people refer to an Order or a spren as being "more of Cultivation/Honor," but as far as I was aware, there wasn't any WoB confirmation on whether or not Cultivation actually had anything to do with the orders and spren. I thought it was just a fan theory, but that of course doesn't mean I couldn't have missed something. Could someone clarify whether it's been confirmed, or if we're just accepting that theory as correct for now?

 

 

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Interview: Oct 12th, 2015

Shadows of Self-Oak Brook, IL

Question

Syl identifies herself as an honorspren.

Brandon Sanderson

Yes.

Question

Would Wyndle identify himself as a cultivation spren? [Pause]

Brandon Sanderson

Yes. I think you could say that he would.

Question

By the same logic, would a voidspren follow the same naming convention, so to speak?

Brandon Sanderson

Here's the thing. Certain spren have decided that they are the most pure forms of honor, or that they are the most pure form of whatever, where all of them are kind of... Syl's got a good argument for what she is. But there are other spren that would be like "well, I'm an honorspren too, I'm just this variety of honorspren." Does that make sense? Syl's like "I'm an American!" and I'm like "I'm an Alaskan!" Yes, you're an American. I'm an American too. It's kind of similar to that. But she would be the most pure... many would view her as the purest form. Wyndle would view himself as the purest form of a cultivation spren.

Also

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Interview: Mar 21st, 2014

WOR Signing Table Q&A (Verbatim)

EHyde

So I'm just gonna run with that right now. Is Surgebinding in general a melding of Honor and Odium ala Feruchemy being in some senses being not directly of Ruin or Preservation?

Brandon Sanderson

Honor and Cultivation is what you mean? Um, there are spren of all three shards. And those spren can work within the bounds of the magic that has already been set up on Roshar.

 

[The One Who Connects he/him]

7 minutes ago, Sand Master said:

Not to get the thread off topic, but I just want to get a quick clarification. Often lately I've seen people refer to an Order or a spren as being "more of Cultivation/Honor," but as far as I was aware, there wasn't any WoB confirmation on whether or not Cultivation actually had anything to do with the orders and spren. I thought it was just a fan theory, but that of course doesn't mean I couldn't have missed something. Could someone clarify whether it's been confirmed, or if we're just accepting that theory as correct for now?

It is not 100% from this one

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But the spren you are running into are all (something) of either Honor or Cultivation, or some mixture between them. And you can usually tell the ones that are more Honor, and the ones that are more Cultivation. That should be able to be (something).

It's not exactly being Ninja'd by Eki because i have a different WoB

[Sand Master]

Ah, alright, thanks guys.

[Xaklys he/him]

9 hours ago, Krandacth said:

Are the Shin Stone Shamans the descendants/remnants/legacy of an Order of Knights Radiant that did not fall at the Recreance? Is that why they have all the Honorblades?

As a slightly separate but related point: Was the only Order of Radiants that didn't feel betrayed, and so renounce their oaths, the one Order whose Heraldic Patron didn't lie to them about the desolations, i.e. Taln and the Stonewards?

In which case, does this tie back to the theory that the Stone Shamans (the organisation that teaches that Stone is sacred and ward against its being walked upon) are the legacy of the Stonewards? Or is that a bit too much of a stretch? :-P

Okay, this is a really clever theory.  I hadn't quite gotten a chance to ponder Szeth's background yet, and this looks pretty promising.  The question is, have they forsaken their oaths as well?  They do call his slave stone the Oathstone, he may have to bare the oath of a radiant with the honorblade as they were meant to be servants to the people.  Which they could have possibly forsaken or not and may or may not have spren? Who knows, I'm kinda reaching at this point I think but we can only wait and see.

[The One Who Connects he/him]

14 minutes ago, Xaklys said:

They do call his slave stone the Oathstone, he may have to bare the oath of a radiant with the honorblade as they were meant to be servants to the people.

It probably has little to do with this, but Brandon has RAFO'd (twice iirc) if Szeth was bound by anything more than his honor. I never would've made a connection if you hadn't suggested that, so I figured I'd add it

[Spoolofwhool]

35 minutes ago, The One Who Connects said:

It probably has little to do with this, but Brandon has RAFO'd (twice iirc) if Szeth was bound by anything more than his honor. I never would've made a connection if you hadn't suggested that, so I figured I'd add it

Nale did say at the end that he found Szeth's devotion to keeping order and following his oath to be admirable. That implies that he was more bound by personal honor than by another force and could've stopped if he wanted to, an opinion he mirrored when talking to Kaladin. Assuming both Szeth and Nale are knowledgeable enough on the subject of Oathstones.

[Savanorn he/him]

10 hours ago, Krandacth said:

Are the Shin Stone Shamans the descendants/remnants/legacy of an Order of Knights Radiant that did not fall at the Recreance? Is that why they have all the Honorblades?

As a slightly separate but related point: Was the only Order of Radiants that didn't feel betrayed, and so renounce their oaths, the one Order whose Heraldic Patron didn't lie to them about the desolations, i.e. Taln and the Stonewards?

In which case, does this tie back to the theory that the Stone Shamans (the organisation that teaches that Stone is sacred and ward against its being walked upon) are the legacy of the Stonewards? Or is that a bit too much of a stretch? :-P

I like this. But I am not inclined to agree. 

Other people have made excellent points but to this I'd add that Skybreakers are most likely the order that endured. They may even be the Stone Shamans. 

For two reasons. 

Firstly, as seen in the Rysn interlude there is the ability of the Shin to detect lies. An ability we have considered to be of the Skybreakers. 

Secondly, there exists an organisation in Roshar right now called the Skybreakers which happens to be lead be a man who hunts other potential Radiants.

This leads me to believe that the Order that betrayed the others is likely the one that is still betraying the others. It also seems to me that the Order most well placed to deceive would be the one that could tell the truth from lies. 

[Spoolofwhool]

6 minutes ago, Savanorn said:

I like this. But I am not inclined to agree. 

Other people have made excellent points but to this I'd add that Skybreakers are most likely the order that endured. They may even be the Stone Shamans. 

For two reasons. 

Firstly, as seen in the Rysn interlude there is the ability of the Shin to detect lies. An ability we have considered to be of the Skybreakers. 

Secondly, there exists an organisation in Roshar right now called the Skybreakers which happens to be lead be a man who hunts other potential Radiants.

This leads me to believe that the Order that betrayed the others is likely the one that is still betraying the others. It also seems to me that the Order most well placed to deceive would be the one that could tell the truth from lies. 

The problem though is that if the Shin Stone Shamans and Nale were in alignment, then why did Nale instruct Szeth to bring justice to the Stone Shamans (with Nightblood)? Also, the beliefs of the groups not aligned somewhat. The Stone Shamans believed that the Final Desolation and the rebirth of the KR was not coming, while the Skybreakers knew the KR were returning and that the possibility of the Final Desolation was close. While it's possible that Szeth was named Truthless far in advance of the Nale learning about the Proto-Radiants, the fact that he has begun hunting them, but the Stone Shamans still haven't approached Szeth to have him return, indicates that both groups are not acting in concert to any degree. While it's possible that they may not want to admit they were wrong, it still seems extremely illogical to not retrieve a skilled fighter like Szeth with an Honorblade to prepare him for the Desolation.

[Savanorn he/him]

1 minute ago, Spoolofwhool said:

The problem though is that if the Shin Stone Shamans and Nale were in alignment, then why did Nale instruct Szeth to bring justice to the Stone Shamans (with Nightblood)? Also, the beliefs of the groups not aligned somewhat. The Stone Shamans believed that the Final Desolation and the rebirth of the KR was not coming, while the Skybreakers knew the KR were returning and that the possibility of the Final Desolation was close. While it's possible that Szeth was named Truthless far in advance of the Nale learning about the Proto-Radiants, the fact that he has begun hunting them, but the Stone Shamans still haven't approached Szeth to have him return, indicates that both groups are not acting in concert to any degree. While it's possible that they may not want to admit they were wrong, it still seems extremely illogical to not retrieve a skilled fighter like Szeth with an Honorblade to prepare him for the Desolation.

Well, there's actually some reasons for this. 

Firstly, and this is the strongest point, it is possible that both organisations are..say..."descendents" of the original order of Skybreakers. They may not be in contact or alligned anymore. I mean, it isn't like Nalan just chilled in Shinovar and dictated plans to both groups.

Secondly, for all we know, Szeth presented the evidence and the Shamans named him truthlesss out of fear and or denial. Basically, what I mean, is that we don't know what the Shamans know and what they did for the sake of appearance. We also don't know that they could come to grips with the actual possibility of the immediate end of the world.

Thirdly, Szeth seemed confident the Shamans could retrieve the Blade from whoever killed him. This implies to me that they do not lack for skilled warriors. Indeed, we know their culture doesn't value fighters so his "sacrifice" is essentially the loss of something worthless. 

I guess fundamentally what I am trying to get across is that both Nale and the Shamans seems to be trying to deny that a desolation in nigh.

I could be entirely off mark on this one. Don't get me wrong.

[Argel he/him]

Where was the subterfuge though? The Skybreakers seem too well known. They would have had to stay hidden long enough to avoid showing up in the history books (or I suppose purge all records back then so no mention of them survived, but that seems too far fetched).

I will throw one out there -- what if the great subterfuge was having most of their order participate in the Recreance -- performing the same betrayal as the rest?

Edited September 18, 2016 by Argel

[Krandacth]

1 hour ago, Argel said:

I will throw one out there -- what if the great subterfuge was having most of their order participate in the Recreance -- performing the same betrayal as the rest?

That would be quite the subterfuge. But... Not really at the expense of the other nine. Perhaps if they instigated the Recreance, having discovered how to revive their spren, then re-instituted their order in secret after essentially destroying the others?

Edited September 18, 2016 by Krandacth

[Argel he/him]

The expense could be that there was not a complete betrayal. Think about the oathpact and how that has not been broken to the extent the Heralds think it has been. Could be something similar going on. 

Reviving the spren could be interesting, especially since reviving Adolin's has possibly already been foreshadowed.