Hoid's Feruchemy

[Shardlet he/him]

Hello everybody! A thought tickled my brain after reading a couple of WOBs and I thought I'd pop my head up to see what folks have to say about it.  First the WOBs:

WOB #1:

Quote

Mike Cockrum:

Hoid is regularly around when important events take place. How does he know where to go?

Brandon Sanderson

He uses Feruchemy. Part of it that will show up in later books.

WOB #2:

Quote

Paladin Brewer

Why did Hoid not take both beads of lerasium?

Brandon Sanderson

Hoid has an innate ability to know where he needs to be and what he needs to do.

So we know that Hoid pops up in many places, interacts with important people, and gathers cool stuff in order to achieve some desired outcome.  We also know that he uses feruchemy order to know where to go.  However, it had previously always been discussed and speculated that Hoid obtained his feruchemy on Scadrial or from some Scadrian artifact.  However, the more recent of the two WOBs above (that would be #2 from Librarypalooza back in Feb of this year) indicates that his ability to know where to go is "innate".  This suggests that Hoid had his feruchemy from birth (since that is what 'innate' means).  However we know that Hoid predates Scadrial since he was present at the shattering of Adonalsium (and Scadrial, or at least its flora, fauna, and metallic arts, was created by the combined efforts of two of the shards).  This means that he predates Scadrian feruchemy.  So, is feruchemy a native Yolan art or did Brandon misuse the term 'innate'?

[Spoolofwhool]

Feruchemy is the manifestation of investiture of both Ruin and Preservation, so I don't think it could've predated Scadrial. What I think Brandon meant, is that Hoid had somehow acquired a limited prescience ability, to help him find where to go next, where and when something "novel-worthy" occurs. However, this power is limited and non-precise, meaning that he misses his guess sometimes. WoB on that matter. However, now that he has obtained feruchemical powers after visiting Scadrial, he is somehow using it to amplify his prescience abilities, using feruchemical compound tapping, so he can more precisely go where he wants to be. 

Edited September 18, 2016 by Spoolofwhool

[Darkness Ascendant he/him]

Well, Yolen has it's own type of soulcasting as well, heck, alot of the powers granted by the Shards are based on their Yolen precursors.

This isn't really a theory considering that Brandon basically said that he was born with it

[Shardlet he/him]

36 minutes ago, Spoolofwhool said:

Feruchemy is the manifestation of investiture of both Ruin and Preservation, so I don't think it could've predated Scadrial. What I think Brandon meant, is that Hoid had somehow acquired a limited prescience ability, to help him find where to go next, where and when something "novel-worthy" occurs. However, this power is limited and non-precise, meaning that he misses his guess sometimes. WoB on that matter. However, now that he has obtained feruchemical powers after visiting Scadrial, he is somehow using it to amplify his prescience abilities, using feruchemical compound tapping, so he can more precisely go where he wants to be. 

To an extent that is accurate.  However, at least some abilities manifest similarly but originate from different worlds (i.e., lightweaving manifests from both Yolen and Roshar).  I did note that the metallic arts are a manifestation of two shards (Ruin and Preservation, though I did not name them.  I figured that at this point everyone is pretty well versed in that.).  Remember that all abilities resulting from shardic investiture would be contained within the power of Adonalsium (which Hoid predates the shattering of). And yes, I know that the intent of the Shard, the intent of the entity holding the Shard, and the world being invested all affect the manner of manifestation of the investiture.

Brandon may very well have misspoken.  But, I think the wording is compelling and very exciting if he did not misspeak.

[Spoolofwhool]

Just now, Shardlet said:

To an extent that is accurate.  However, at least some abilities manifest similarly but originate from different worlds (i.e., lightweaving manifests from both Yolen and Roshar).  I did note that the metallic arts are a manifestation of two shards (Ruin and Preservation, though I did not name them.  I figured that at this point everyone is pretty well versed in that.).  Remember that all abilities resulting from shardic investiture would be contained within the power of Adonalsium (which Hoid predates the shattering of). And yes, I know that the intent of the Shard, the intent of the entity holding the Shard, and the world being invested all affect the manner of manifestation of the investiture.

Brandon may very well have misspoken.  But, I think the wording is compelling and very exciting if he did not misspeak.

I am aware of this. I'm sorry if my wording suggested otherwise, but I didn't need the explanation on manifestations of investiture, nor did I say anything which suggested you didn't, so I don't know why you wrote that last sentence in the first paragraph.

The thing about lightweaving and soulcasting is that they are not manifestations of investiture unique to a shard and world. They are effects of manifestations which can be achieved by different means, such as Roshar's surgebinding of the Surge of Illumination or Surge of Transformation. I haven't read Dragonsteel but I'm assuming that Lightweaving wasn't a manifestation of investiture of it, but a resulting ability or effect. Since Brandon specifically says Feruchemy, it would have to be from Scadrial.

Note: This is a suggestion, but I think forum dynamics could be improved if you weren't slightly condescending when you reply to someone. I'm sure you didn't mean to, but the specific wording you used can give that impression to people

 

[Shardlet he/him]

19 minutes ago, Spoolofwhool said:

I am aware of this. I'm sorry if my wording suggested otherwise, but I didn't need the explanation on manifestations of investiture, nor did I say anything which suggested you didn't, so I don't know why you wrote that last sentence in the first paragraph.

The thing about lightweaving and soulcasting is that they are not manifestations of investiture unique to a shard and world. They are effects of manifestations which can be achieved by different means, such as Roshar's surgebinding of the Surge of Illumination or Surge of Transformation. I haven't read Dragonsteel but I'm assuming that Lightweaving wasn't a manifestation of investiture of it, but a resulting ability or effect. Since Brandon specifically says Feruchemy, it would have to be from Scadrial.

Note: This is a suggestion, but I think forum dynamics could be improved if you weren't slightly condescending when you reply to someone. I'm sure you didn't mean to, but the specific wording you used can give that impression to people

 

I'm sorry that my reply came off as condescending.  It was not my intent.  The last sentence of the first paragraph was merely intended to address what I thought was the natural response to my reply.  It seemed likely that the next avenue would reference previous WOB that indicates that the planet itself affects the manifestation of the investiture of its associated Shard.  I only intended to note that I was aware of this and was not excluding it from my thought process.

[Spoolofwhool]

1 hour ago, Shardlet said:

I'm sorry that my reply came off as condescending.  It was not my intent.  The last sentence of the first paragraph was merely intended to address what I thought was the natural response to my reply.  It seemed likely that the next avenue would reference previous WOB that indicates that the planet itself affects the manifestation of the investiture of its associated Shard.  I only intended to note that I was aware of this and was not excluding it from my thought process.

No problem. Just a suggestion on wording. Don't say things along the lines of "I figured that at this point everyone is pretty well versed in that." It sounds really elitist since it implies you're assuming everyone should have a specific set of knowledge while at the same time excluding anyyone who didn't know that. 

 

Moving back to the main topic, since we got heavily sidetracked. 

I did bring up a thought, which I'm not sure you saw, and if you did, I'm going to say it against anyways because it's a good place to get us back on track. Here's what I think. The specific WoBs refer to two parts of Hoid's ability to know where and when to go. The first part is a weak prescience, or instinctual ability. This is a part of his innate investiture, though whether he started with it or not, I don't know. I don't think he did. It helps guide him on where to go, what to do. However, when he tries to apply it to something bigger, like worldhopping, it doesn't work as well, so he sometimes goes to the wrong place at the wrong time, and essentially doesn't find something "novel-worthy". However, after he went to Scadrial and took a bead of lerasium, he used to it store his prescience ability so he could later amplify it and more accurately divine where and when to go next. This is the second part, using feruchemy. 

[PantsForSquares he/him]

1 hour ago, Spoolofwhool said:

I did bring up a thought, which I'm not sure you saw, and if you did, I'm going to say it against anyways because it's a good place to get us back on track. Here's what I think. The specific WoBs refer to two parts of Hoid's ability to know where and when to go. The first part is a weak prescience, or instinctual ability. This is a part of his innate investiture, though whether he started with it or not, I don't know. I don't think he did. It helps guide him on where to go, what to do. However, when he tries to apply it to something bigger, like worldhopping, it doesn't work as well, so he sometimes goes to the wrong place at the wrong time, and essentially doesn't find something "novel-worthy". However, after he went to Scadrial and took a bead of lerasium, he used to it store his prescience ability so he could later amplify it and more accurately divine where and when to go next. This is the second part, using feruchemy. 

That's actually an interesting point, because it brings up a possibility that I hadn't considered before: What if Hoid wasn't after the lerasium bead for the Allomancy?

So, we know that F-Nicrosil can be used to store Investiture-related abilities (like the Metallic Arts, for instance). What if Hoid, post-FA, has been using Nicrominds to store whatever ability he has, and is then using the Allomancy he gained from his lerasium bead to Compound his power? It would greatly amplify his ability to actually get to the right place at the right time, at the potential expense of having a stock of nicrosil.

Whether or not he's been using Allomancy to Compound nicrosil is merely speculation, but this idea has cemented the possibility that Hoid is using F-Nicrosil for his "right place, right time" power.

[Spoolofwhool]

2 minutes ago, PantsForSquares said:

That's actually an interesting point, because it brings up a possibility that I hadn't considered before: What if Hoid wasn't after the lerasium bead for the Allomancy?

So, we know that F-Nicrosil can be used to store Investiture-related abilities (like the Metallic Arts, for instance). What if Hoid, post-FA, has been using Nicrominds to store whatever ability he has, and is then using the Allomancy he gained from his lerasium bead to Compound his power? It would greatly amplify his ability to actually get to the right place at the right time, at the potential expense of having a stock of nicrosil.

Whether or not he's been using Allomancy to Compound nicrosil is merely speculation, but this idea has cemented the possibility that Hoid is using F-Nicrosil for his "right place, right time" power.

I'm sure he was after it for both the allomancy and feruchemy. He wouldn't need to compound it though, I don't think, although he could. He probably doesn't need the prescience ability all the time, just at select points. At other times he could just focus on storing it, since he wouldn't be using it anyways. When he's about to worldhop, he just taps it all in a giant burst to know where and when to go. 

 

[Shardlet he/him]

1 hour ago, Spoolofwhool said:

No problem. Just a suggestion on wording. Don't say things along the lines of "I figured that at this point everyone is pretty well versed in that." It sounds really elitist since it implies you're assuming everyone should have a specific set of knowledge while at the same time excluding anyyone who didn't know that. 

 

Moving back to the main topic, since we got heavily sidetracked. 

I did bring up a thought, which I'm not sure you saw, and if you did, I'm going to say it against anyways because it's a good place to get us back on track. Here's what I think. The specific WoBs refer to two parts of Hoid's ability to know where and when to go. The first part is a weak prescience, or instinctual ability. This is a part of his innate investiture, though whether he started with it or not, I don't know. I don't think he did. It helps guide him on where to go, what to do. However, when he tries to apply it to something bigger, like worldhopping, it doesn't work as well, so he sometimes goes to the wrong place at the wrong time, and essentially doesn't find something "novel-worthy". However, after he went to Scadrial and took a bead of lerasium, he used to it store his prescience ability so he could later amplify it and more accurately divine where and when to go next. This is the second part, using feruchemy. 

IDK.  I think you are taking some leaps that are not supported or suggested by the WOBs.  In both, Brandon refers specifically to Hoid knowing where to go.  In the first he says he uses feruchemy to do so. In the second he says Hoid has an innate ability to do so.  This suggests, again, if Brandon did not mistakenly use the word 'innate', that Hoid has innate rather than obtained feruchemy. 

1 minute ago, PantsForSquares said:

That's actually an interesting point, because it brings up a possibility that I hadn't considered before: What if Hoid wasn't after the lerasium bead for the Allomancy?

So, we know that F-Nicrosil can be used to store Investiture-related abilities (like the Metallic Arts, for instance). What if Hoid, post-FA, has been using Nicrominds to store whatever ability he has, and is then using the Allomancy he gained from his lerasium bead to Compound his power? It would greatly amplify his ability to actually get to the right place at the right time, at the potential expense of having a stock of nicrosil.

Whether or not he's been using Allomancy to Compound nicrosil is merely speculation, but this idea has cemented the possibility that Hoid is using F-Nicrosil for his "right place, right time" power.

The epigraph letter in WoK indicates that Hoid is still in possession of the lerasium bead and had not burned it to obtain allomancy.  There seems to be potentially conflicting WOB on the subject though.

First: (from 03/29/2014)

Quote

Herowannabe

The Lord Ruler, he had his Lerasium beads, did he use them for Feruchemy?

Brandon Sanderson

[impish grin] Ah ha ha ha. The Lord Ruler, heh heh heh, That is an excellent question.

Herowannabe

Not going to answer?

Brandon Sanderson

Not going to answer that one.

Herowannabe

Would you answer if Hoid used it for Feruchemy?

Brandon Sanderson

His bead? Hoid’s bead was—He originally got it because he wanted to be an Allomancer. [Note that he doesn’t actually answer the question.]

Second: (also from 03/29/2014)

Quote

Question

Has Hoid used his Lerasium Bead for Feruchemy?

Brandon Sanderson

Hoid got the bead originally because he wanted to become an Allomancer.

Footnote

BWS has stated elsewhere that Hoid has not used his lerasium bead.

Third: (from 02/25/2016)

Quote

Question

Can you share any abilities that Hoid has accrued so far in the books, has he-- I can't even pronounce the L-word...

Brandon Sanderson

Yes, lerasium, he is indeed an Allomancer. That has happened. I haven't confirmed much else, but he does have that.

Footnote

confirmed

The reason this is a bit confusing is that No Cosmere time has passed between the dates of these quotes (i.e., WoR is the furthest along in the Cosmere timeline).

[Spoolofwhool]

1 minute ago, Shardlet said:

IDK.  I think you are taking some leaps that are not supported or suggested by the WOBs.  In both, Brandon refers specifically to Hoid knowing where to go.  In the first he says he uses feruchemy to do so. In the second he says Hoid has an innate ability to do so.  This suggests, again, if Brandon did not mistakenly use the word 'innate', that Hoid has innate rather than obtained feruchemy. 

The epigraph letter in WoK indicates that Hoid is still in possession of the lerasium bead and had not burned it to obtain allomancy.  There seems to be potentially conflicting WOB on the subject though.

First: (from 03/29/2014)

Second: (also from 03/29/2014)

Third: (from 02/25/2016)

The reason this is a bit confusing is that No Cosmere time has passed between the dates of these quotes (i.e., WoR is the furthest along in the Cosmere timeline).

Hrm. First of all, the point of theories is to make leaps, and you do need to make some extreme ones. Regarding the use of innate, it can have multiple meanings. We can either take it to mean that it is something he was born with, or we can take it a bit more broadly and have it as something that is a part of him, and not reliant on an external mechanism, like a shard suggesting him ideas. 

Moving on, even though Brandon did say that he uses feruchemy to know where to go, it seems unlikely that feruchemy is the only mechanism involved. It would be more likely that he has some other ability that he is amplifying with feruchemy. 

Regarding his possession of lerasium, things have been vague, but he has allomancy and feruchemy so it seems likely that he would've used at least some of it. He could still have some of it, in which case he would still be in possession of it. I can't really imagine another way he could've become an allomancer and feruchemist, though he probably knows a lot more about innate investiture manipulation than me.

[Argel he/him]

10 hours ago, Spoolofwhool said:

We can either take it to mean that it is something he was born with, or we can take it a bit more broadly and have it as something that is a part of him, and not reliant on an external mechanism, like a shard suggesting him ideas. 

I agree. I think Brandon just meant it's a passive ability that "just works".