Adolin shardblade

[Yata he/him]

43 minutes ago, maxal said:

Still it may be you are right and she can't. Could she have summoned her Blade back in WoK when she thought of doing it? I guess we are never going to find out.. Isn't there a WoB about it? I may have read something about it, but my memory may serve me wrong.

No WoB (as far as I know there only one who goes near but it not actually answer this doubt) and maybe the Lightweaver have need of more/less step in the bonding to summon their Blade. I wanted just to point that Shallan has actually spoken her "3 oaths" when first summoned her Blade in the books. She didn't finish the process before.

The spoken WoB:

Quote

HAVOC

In WoK, Shallan is being chased by Cryptics. She begins to summon her Shardblade, stops and then Soulcasts for the first time. We know from WoR that it's her bond to Pattern, her Shardblade that allows her to Soulcast. So my question is, if Shallan had not begun to summon her Blade, would she have been able to Soulcast?

BRANDON SANDERSON

She would not have been able to. No one has ever asked me that before.

 

[Argel he/him]

2 hours ago, maxal said:

I also think all orders progress faster when in a situation of crisis which would explain why Kaladin progresses so fast and Dalinar/Jasnah/Renarin so slowly. Kaladin needed to be a Radiant, now, but the others didn't. They could take their sweet time progressing, there was no urge and no hurry.

That covers some of the Truths Shallan spoke, and e.g. at the end of WoR, she accomplished a lot, so not a big surprise she has progressed the furthest by the end of WoR. Likely if Jasnah had made it to the Shattered Plains she would have progressed more than Shallan. Interesting tradeoff -- Shallan would know more about soulcasting but being forced to survive on her own gave her more confidence and allowed her to learn other things.

[If.you.die.I.go.stupid]

7 hours ago, Yata said:

Sorry Maxal but this is (probably) untrue. Shallan has probably spoken their 2 truths as a child and develop Patternblade (It's stupid but I love the name) then she made Pattern flee and their bond almost broke (for the nature of her Order is possible they may develop quite faster in crisis situation....maybe her mum attempt to kill her was a source of a truth, something like "my mother doesn't love me")

In the first book She "thinks" she may summon a Shardblade but she never actual did it (their attempt to summon it made them capable of her fist Soulcast but actually this stop her from the summon). The first time she actually summon Patterblade (after her Shipwreck) and at this point she already told again two truths ("I am scary" and "I killed my father" probably not the exact wording but my book isn't in english) that are equals to the Third Oath for another order.

 

Wait,  the first time she summoned a blade was after the shipwreck? I thought it was in her mother's death. One of the bodies has burned out eyes,  the whole thing with her mother's soul seemed to be in reference to a blade and when a shardblade is pointed at her father he glance up and says something like “no, this one is different.” implying he thought for a second it was the blade used in his wife’s death. 

 

Do you mean she didn't summon a blade as a child or that she did but probably couldn't do so as an adult until she said the truths again? That makes sense. Pattern says he was dumb for a long time. I think that is the time when shallan ‘forgets’ about him. The truths reestablish a connection that allows pattern to gain intelligence again and allows Shallan to surgebind. I think she may have been able to draw the blade before the truths. Mother's soul was behind a painting at her home. Was it there or was it placed there and then pattern left because he wasn't fully ‘dead’? I've never put much thought into this, but if pattern remained a blade could she, the one originally bonded to the spren, summon it or would any summoning require a gem in the hilt? If pattern didn't remain a blade, I'm not sure what that tells us. The bond could have been strongly intact after she kills her mother. It could have faded over time as she grew in her denial of the truth. Maybe it broke at a specific point I'm missing or we haven't seen yet. Maybe it didn't break but just regressed and pattern wasn't dead but went backwards, acting more like a spren without sapieces. Shallan summoning a blade in any of these scenarios seems unlikely to me, except for one thing,  her summoning her blade could be seen as a truth, I have a blade,  this blade is different from others, I killed with this blade in the past… that might have been enough to reestablish the bond. 

[Yata he/him]

@If.you.die.I.go.stupid yes....Shallan as a child was already to the point to made Pattern-Shardblade (and indeed She used it to kill her mother or her mother's friend) then She was shocked and began to mental block his Bond with Patter...Our poor Patter flee to the Cognitive to avoid an awful destiny and the Bond became very very weak. She have to forge her bond again...through Truths.

Edited September 22, 2016 by Yata

[Argel he/him]

4 hours ago, If.you.die.I.go.stupid said:

Shallan summoning a blade in any of these scenarios seems unlikely to me, except for one thing,  her summoning her blade could be seen as a truth, I have a blade,  this blade is different from others, I killed with this blade in the past… that might have been enough to reestablish the bond. 

Interesting idea. Though is it enough to think it or does it actually have to be said?

[The One Who Connects he/him]

1 hour ago, Argel said:

Interesting idea. Though is it enough to think it or does it actually have to be said?

It probably has to be a spoken oath like the others, but given that their "truths" are all about self-realization, it might be enough for them to have mentally accepted the truth. Depends on how liberally/strictly Pattern defines her speaking of truths.

[maxal she/her]

11 hours ago, Yata said:

No WoB (as far as I know there only one who goes near but it not actually answer this doubt) and maybe the Lightweaver have need of more/less step in the bonding to summon their Blade. I wanted just to point that Shallan has actually spoken her "3 oaths" when first summoned her Blade in the books. She didn't finish the process before.

The spoken WoB:

 

My interpretation of this WoB is Shallan needed to start summoning Pattern in order for her bond to grow strong enough for her to surgebinde. I also recall Brandon stating how Shallan's bond to Pattern was nearly shattered, but not broken in the aftermath of her mother's death. He said she retained enough conscience of Pattern's existence for him not to be trapped into "spren death". My thoughts are Shallan remember she had a Shardblade and this knowledge alone is what preserve her bond, even if barely. It is thus she needed to re-summon the Blade to strengthen it enough to use stormlight.

9 hours ago, Argel said:

That covers some of the Truths Shallan spoke, and e.g. at the end of WoR, she accomplished a lot, so not a big surprise she has progressed the furthest by the end of WoR. Likely if Jasnah had made it to the Shattered Plains she would have progressed more than Shallan. Interesting tradeoff -- Shallan would know more about soulcasting but being forced to survive on her own gave her more confidence and allowed her to learn other things.

My thoughts are Jasnah did not have a strong enough incentive to progress faster. After all, she is a pampered princess living in luxuries and having the material means to pursue any endeavor which fits her fancy. Her life has arguably been much easier than Shallan and Kaladin.

 

[Argel he/him]

On 9/22/2016 at 9:23 PM, maxal said:

My thoughts are Jasnah did not have a strong enough incentive to progress faster. After all, she is a pampered princess living in luxuries and having the material means to pursue any endeavor which fits her fancy. Her life has arguably been much easier than Shallan and Kaladin.

Agreed. She doesn't know a desolation is coming in a few years, so when she starts researching her father's assassination, it's more out of curiosity, so she just goes into scholarly research mode.  If she had known about the coming desolation, I think e.g. she would have spent a lot more time in Shadesmar. Basically, rapid, desperate research vs. the orderly pace (e.g baths, etc.) pace we see her taking.

Meanwhile, we see Kaladin and Shallan struggle to survive. And later on for Shallan, we see her take on Jasnah's work, and by the time she gets to the Shattered Plains, there is a sense of urgency thanks to Dalinar's visions and other factors. 

If Jasnah had made it to the shattered plains, she would have picked up on the urgency and likely progressed faster -- he research was really at a point where the urgency was creeping in. Even without other hints like Dalinar's visions, I think we were seeing a transition from "book study" research to field research about the parshmen, where Urithiru is, etc.  that would have resulted in her picking up the pace.

 

Edited September 24, 2016 by Argel
minor edits for clarity and fixing typos

[marianmi]

The speaking of oaths is a "check" the radiant has to pass in order to gain access to further abilities.

However, the "order" of abilities is different for each type of spren.

For example, I think that after the 1st oath, cryptics give access to blade, and after truths they give access to surges.

    1st oath: shardblade

    1st truth: soulcasting, lightweaving

    2nd truth: improvements - e.g. sound in lightweaving, better soulcasting (can convince sticks)

it's also possible shallan may have given a truth too as a kid, so add +1 truth to the above.

 

Honorspren has a different order, which gives access to shardblade after 3rd oath, after 4th oath probably squires get much better, etc... Honorspren are more "discerning" than other spren, so they give access to shards at a higher level. It's clear than bondsmiths could, in theory, use shards at after the 2nd oath.

 

What is not clear is if radiants need to be "cracked" people in order to be chosen by sprens. Kaladin clearly was scarred (emotionally) when Syl manifested, it's not clear how Shallan was when Pattern appeared (of course she became crazy afterwards), Dalinar also has lots of issues (the guilt for Gavilar's death, which I think was very important in him becoming a radiant, his wife's death, ...), Renarin also is emotionally scarred from his upbringing (his training suffering the blade screaming in his hands, going all alone in the arena and vs chasmfiends, going to bridge4 for training are not things a "normal" person would do).

Adolin however is not that crazy. He's easygoing, pretty happy. He wouldn't have jumped in the arena like Renarin did, he would have acted more rational. So while he's got the "good" traits, he's not "crazy". Well, except maybe at the end of WoR, when we are told he "cracked" and killed Sadeas. So maybe this is the point in time when stuff starts to happen for him. The guilt and how he deals with it might be the trigger.

Resurrecting a shardblade spren: well, I read the WoB, however I don't totally agree with the "speaking" of words. I mean, the dead spren already "checked" the dead radiant, so if the new radiant is supposed to "replace" the dead radiant, from the spren's point of view, he passed the checks. (replace == radiant clone, same ADN, spren does not know he's different than the dead radiant when it's being "pulled back"). And also, since the spren is in limbo/dead, speaking the oaths has no effect since the spren cannot "check" them.

Now, the alternative would be for the new radiant to kind of go where the dead spren is. Maybe i'm bending this to fit Adolin tho. So if the new radiant betrays his own "oaths" (beliefs), he's tormented and spiritually dies, he might find himself in a position where he can "reach" the dead spren, and both of them MAY come back. (the new radiant can reach the dead spren through the blade bond).

All being said, I really cannot see Adolin an edgedancer - he's really not that much into remembering people. He can't even remember his girlfriends  

 

 

Edited September 24, 2016 by marianmi

[maxal she/her]

8 minutes ago, marianmi said:

What is not clear is if radiants need to be "cracked" people in order to be chosen by sprens. Kaladin clearly was scarred (emotionally) when Syl manifested, it's not clear how Shallan was when Pattern appeared (of course she became crazy afterwards), Dalinar also has lots of issues (the guilt for Gavilar's death, which I think was very important in him becoming a radiant, his wife's death, ...), Renarin also is emotionally scarred from his upbringing (his training suffering the blade screaming in his hands, going all alone in the arena and vs chasmfiends, going to bridge4 for training are not things a "normal" person would do).

About Renarin, all you have mentioned has happened after he has bonded Glys, not before. 

10 minutes ago, marianmi said:

Adolin however is not that crazy. He's easygoing, pretty happy. He wouldn't have jumped in the arena like Renarin did, he would have acted more rational. So while he's got the "good" traits, he's not "crazy". Well, except maybe at the end of WoR, when we are told he "cracked" and killed Sadeas. So maybe this is the point in time when stuff starts to happen for him. The guilt and how he deals with it might be the trigger.

What makes you think he wouldn't jump in the arena? On the contrary, Adolin has had no respect whatsoever towards his own life, he has repetitively put himself in front of his father, in fights he knew he couldn't win. Adolin would have NEVER sat still while watching a love one being beaten. NEVER. And he isn't rational, not at all, each he gets emotional, he stops being rational. 

12 minutes ago, marianmi said:

Resurrecting a shardblade spren: well, I read the WoB, however I don't totally agree with the "speaking" of words. I mean, the dead spren already "checked" the dead radiant, so if the new radiant is supposed to "replace" the dead radiant, from the spren's point of view, he passed the checks. (replace == radiant clone, same ADN, spren does not know he's different than the dead radiant when it's being "pulled back"). And also, since the spren is in limbo/dead, speaking the oaths has no effect since the spren cannot "check" them.

You need to say the oath, this is a given. Kaladin and Shallan both nearly killed their spren and it was shown they had to speak the oaths again to revive them. You have indeed pointed a fair point: how can it hear him? This maybe the "something more" which needs to happen.

14 minutes ago, marianmi said:

All being said, I really cannot see Adolin an edgedancer - he's really not that much into remembering people. He can't even remember his girlfriends  

Considering how you stated you saw Adolin as a rational character who would never put himself in danger to protect those he loves, I can certainly understand why you have a hard time seeing it. I feel this may however be a simplistic analysis of the character. It is easy to read Adolin as just an easy going guy with no worries in the world, except his POV tell us a different stories and so does his action. He wants to be the easy going guy, but he can't allow wrong to prevail. He can't be the quiet bystander. 

Let's see all which Adolin actually does...

Adolin has stopped himself to genuinely help a woman, a prostitute, a woman who ranked to low most other lighteyes would have probably spat on her. All this while being in an enemy warcamp. It could have gone bad. He didn't have to stop nor to help and nobody would have thought less of him, but he did. 

Adolin has been the only character to actively remember the soldiers who died at the tower. He names them and mourns their death, remembering them. He does the same after the chasmfiend hunt and it disheartened the king does not seem to care, at all.

Adolin has been carrying "mother's chain" with him as a good luck charm. Not only is it reminiscent of Lift also having a good luck charm, it shows a desire to remember his mother. He is the only character who talks about her with a feeling of longing. He misses his mother and he wants to remember her, quite fitting when his father has forgotten all about her.

Adolin has imprisoned himself for Kaladin's shake merely because it was wrong. This scene gets overlooked. We didn't get his POV nor Dalinar, but Adolin right here and there openly defied a king's decree and order. He took a stand against the king by claiming he was wrong to send Kaladin in prison. This was admirable and the work of someone who cares more about people than the political end game.

Adolin has also repetitively put himself in danger in order to protect others. He protects his men, his family, everyone. His life is the one which matters the less. He never once did anything for himself, just himself, he always puts others first. He also genuinely want to help others, he hates the politic and the game as it is hypocritical. He'd rather everyone spilled their beans on the table and get on with it. Dalinar cares about his visions and his great plan, but Adolin cares about what it means for those who follows them.

Remembering the girlfriend has nothing to do with it... He has some sort of bloc when it comes to relationship: the author has said it wasn't conscious behavior here.

Of course, Adolin is not an Edgedancer, not just yet, but he has the potential to grow into one.

[marianmi]

* protecting * is not an edgedancer thing.

Also, of course Adolin would have jumped in the arena, but Adolin - the master duelist - not an Adolin that has the fits. I meant to say that Adolin if he were in Renarin's condition would not have jumped in.

PS: Renarin was a very frustrated person before Glys, most of my examples were indeed after Glys (but not the one with the chasmfiend tho`)

 

[Yata he/him]

Yeah a great problem about "Adolin would resurrect his Blade" is about his mindset.

As far as I may figure..The Edgedancer's Core is about charity/generosity but probably we will not better with the outcoming novella and I may see Adolin fit this concept but not in a prominent way

[marianmi]

In what context would you ever see Adolin taking an oath like "I will remember those that have been forgotten" ? Who will he remember? Sadeas ?

[maxal she/her]

7 hours ago, marianmi said:

* protecting * is not an edgedancer thing.

Also, of course Adolin would have jumped in the arena, but Adolin - the master duelist - not an Adolin that has the fits. I meant to say that Adolin if he were in Renarin's condition would not have jumped in.

PS: Renarin was a very frustrated person before Glys, most of my examples were indeed after Glys (but not the one with the chasmfiend tho`)

 

It is unknown when Renarin bonded Glys precisely, but Brandon has told us it happened a long time before it was obvious. Also, right after the chasm scene (or was it right before, I cannot remember), Wit tells Dalinar how Renarin is not as weak as he seems. He also take special note of Renarin and, if we are to believe Adolin's words on it, it wasn't a first.

My thoughts are thus Renarin was already bonding Glys at the time of the chasmfiend hunt, but I agree the evidence for it is tenuous. Without the author spelling out for us, we may never find out when exactly the bond started.

Also, how can you presume to know how Adolin would have reacted had he been the one born with the disability? Why do you assume he would have never done any of the things Renarin would have done? It is a very bold statement to make and it relies on no evidence other than your personal perception about the character which seems, I must say, rather negative. 

Here are some food for thoughts: Adolin is a very pragmatic hard-worker who doesn't give up easily. Had he had a physical condition preventing him from being a soldier, he would have never taken it as a "no". He would have tried to figure out ways around it or to find out other ways to be useful, just as he does when they find Urithiru. He is outclassed, phased out when they reached the city. He's dizzy, hurt and the fact his fiance is a Radiant weights heavily on him, but he does not linger endlessly on his defeat: he gets to work right away. What does he do? He leads the exploration effort. Why? Because he feels this is something he can actually do, so he sets himself to do it. I should also mention how he reacts to his defeat, the first time he meets Szeth. Does he linger in self-pity over his incapacity to protect his father? Of course not. He puts on his Plate and while he goes through a bout of intense stressed induced reactions, he goes out to train the one move he believes could have been useful. When he sees Kaladin training again, he nods approvingly because "Kaladin had been worth more than he against the Assassin in White".

Therefore, Adolin is set to work hard to achieve his goals, to not give up easily in front of a "problem" and when stuck in an impasse, he automatically move onto tasks he can perform, focusing on finding a use even if it isn't his preferred use. 

Renarin, on the other hand, has never stick with any endeavor to ever be good at anything: as soon as he meets a problem or a difficulty, he gives up, blaming himself, but his problem is he never tries long enough. Systematically. Yes, him going into the arena was admirable, but Renarin spends his every waking hour thinking about what he cannot do while Adolin thinks about what he can do. Had their roles been reversed, Adolin would have acted, but probably in a different way than Renarin.

Also the line between protecting and caring is very thin. Kaladin protects because he sees everyone as little Tien who needs his protection. Adolin protects his family because he loves them: he does not see his father as someone who can't protect himself or a weakling, but as a man he loves deeply and cannot accept the possibility he may die.

1 hour ago, marianmi said:

In what context would you ever see Adolin taking an oath like "I will remember those that have been forgotten" ? Who will he remember? Sadeas ?

He remembers the soldiers who died when everyone else is happy to forget about the event. There are several instances of him remembering his men, naming them and feeling the sorrow of their lost. Dalinar thinks only of the military advantage he has lost: Adolin thinks of the individuals, the people, the men he laughed with.

He remembers his mother when everyone else has forgotten everything about her.

He remembers the prostitute is a human being deserving a fair treatment. Him saving her is very similar to Lift going back to save Gawx. It is exactly the same kind of mindset. Lift goes back because "if she does not care, nobody else would". Adolin sees a woman being molested and nobody around gives a care: if he does not intervene, nobody else would. Sure, the gamble was much lesser than Lift, but the act is just the same. He was the Good Samaritan, the eager to help young man which is exactly what Brandon told us Edgedancers were about: people who helped others as best of their abilities.

I would also add he remembers Kaladin when he sits in prison for him. The king was happy to let him rot into nonexistence into his small cell, but not Adolin. By sitting them, he is making a statement, not only is he going against a king's order, but he is saying "I remember what you did for me and I will do whatever I can for you no matter how small. I understand my actions aren't helping, but it is all I can do for the moment, so have them and by sitting here, I also make sure the whole kingdom remembers you are there.".

[Argel he/him]

2 hours ago, maxal said:

Renarin, on the other hand, has never stick with any endeavor to ever be good at anything: as soon as he meets a problem or a difficulty, he gives up, blaming himself, but his problem is he never tries long enough. Systematically. Yes, him going into the arena was admirable, but Renarin spends his every waking hour thinking about what he cannot do

@maxal I love your posts about Adolin and often find them insightful. But dang, do you like to hate on Renarin. Without any PoV we have no idea what he is actually thinking, what he is wishing for, laments, regrets, etc. You may be spot on, but there may be other reasons, motivations, etc. It would be better to cage your comments in pharses like "Renarin appears to.. "  and "Based on what we see in the novels, I believe Renarin is thinking about...." , etc. Also, Renarin joined Bridge Four and began shardplate training and ee haven't seen him give up on those yet. 

Edit: Agree with all your Adolin points. I just find it frustrating and believe it undermines your Adolin arguments/points when you start claiming things about Renarin as fact that have little to no basis for it beyond your interpretation.

Edited September 24, 2016 by Argel

[maxal she/her]

14 minutes ago, Argel said:

@maxal I love your posts about Adolin and often find them insightful. But dang, do you like to hate on Renarin. Without any PoV we have no idea what he is actually thinking, what he is wishing for, laments, regrets, etc. You may be spot on, but there may be other reasons, motivations, etc. It would be better to cage your comments in pharses like "Renarin appears to.. "  and "Based on what we see in the novels, I believe Renarin is thinking about...." , etc. Also, Renarin joined Bridge Four and began shardplate training and ee haven't seen him give up on those yet. 

Edit: Agree with all your Adolin points. I just find it frustrating and believe undermines your Adolin arguments/points when you start claiming things about Renarin as fact that have little to no basis for it beyond your interpretation.

 Fair point. I deserved the rebuke  We have close to no POV for Renarin which is why I do get annoyed at having him being automatically depicted into an extraordinarily favorable light when, in book, his actions are inconsistent and he does quite a bit of complaining each time he has the occasion to speak up. A minor correction, Renarin gave up on his Shardplate training after the 4 on 1 duel which is what I was referring to. He failed, so he gave up and while he has all the best excuses in the world, he still gives. It may be what bothers me with Renarin: he is always excused for his actions, he is never held accountable. He gave up. Pure and simple. True, he hasn't given up on Bridge 4 and we have yet to see where this is going. I am not a fan of this arc.

I'll also admit I added that one line about Renarin after writing the whole post, so I should have probably edit it before sending it. I do try to be more careful, so I'll be more mindful in the future. I was also slightly mad it should be assumed Adolin was an inferior moral individual towards Renarin, an argument again trying to set him up as the superior brother. So there was that too playing into the last post. I don't think Renarin is superior nor inferior to Adolin, just different. I try to judge all characters fairly, but it seems to me many posts on Renarin forget the negative side of the character (even turning his flaws into qualities) which may be why I tend to re-emphasis it in a strong manner.

Still, I'll mind the phrasing in future posts.

[marianmi]

@maxal I am actually actually an Adolin fan, one that for example hopes there won't be any Kaladin-Shallan shenanigans. And I also hope he'll become a Radiant. But I don't see him "broken" as I see Kaladin, Shallan, Dalinar or Renarin. I see him way more "normal", w/o any psychological issues. 

[Krandacth]

@marianmi Actually, I would classify the psychotic break at the end of WoR (and subsequent self-doubt and guilt that should sensibly follow, given that it was so un-Alethi, illegal, and contrary to the ideals that Dalinar had convinced him were valuable) as likely pretty mentally scarring.

Also, I would even see his killing Sadeas as "remembering those who are forgotten", as (IIRC) Sadeas' spiel leading up to that moment implicitly glosses over all the people that have fallen and will fall for his cause. He therefore killed Sadeas in their memory. I may be misinterpreting/misremembering the spiel, of course...

[maxal she/her]

14 minutes ago, marianmi said:

@maxal I am actually actually an Adolin fan, one that for example hopes there won't be any Kaladin-Shallan shenanigans. And I also hope he'll become a Radiant. But I don't see him "broken" as I see Kaladin, Shallan, Dalinar or Renarin. I see him way more "normal", w/o any psychological issues. 

I must have gotten the wrong impression then... Maybe it was how it was phrased, but my understanding was you disliked the character, which is your absolute right, but in doing so you were downplaying every single one of his qualities. The part where you stated Adolin would have never done for Renarin what Renarin did for him during the 4 on 1 duel seemed rather off to me, hence my reaction. I mean, Adolin is never going to be a universally loved character, providing there is even one of those in SA, but I tend to see him as a more complex character than a simpleton which is why when other posters reduces his complexity to not much, I typically react with lengthy explanations. Just as when others praise endlessly Renarin, I tend to write the negative aspect of the character, but I will also write his positive side when others bash him too hard. It is a balancing thing.

As far as I can tell, nobody ever argued Adolin has been broken down in his past. People have argued killing Sadeas was a "mind breaking moment", a thought emphasis by the author's choice of words (something snapped in him), but all agree we still have to read the follow-up.

1 minute ago, Krandacth said:

@marianmi Actually, I would classify the psychotic break at the end of WoR (and subsequent self-doubt and guilt that should sensibly follow, given that it was so un-Alethi, illegal, and contrary to the ideals that Dalinar had convinced him were valuable) as likely pretty mentally scarring.

Also, I would even see his killing Sadeas as "remembering those who are forgotten", as (IIRC) Sadeas' spiel leading up to that moment implicitly glosses over all the people that have fallen and will fall for his cause. He therefore killed Sadeas in their memory. I may be misinterpreting/misremembering the spiel, of course...

While I wouldn't call killing Sadeas a moment of "remembering", it sure was done in greater care for other people. I will forever argue against anyone stating it was pure vengeance: it wasn't. He didn't do for himself, but for his father, his men, his princedom. For others.

This being said, I have often argued his "snapping" was the equivalent of "blood rage" or one of those moments where the reptilian brain takes over, inhibiting the other cognitive functions. It was him, but at the same time, it wasn't him: without the snapping, he wasn't killing Sadeas. I have also often argued his mind broke right here and there, but we still have to read this confirmation going into book 3. 

If the author writes this right, then what Adolin is about to go through, IMHO, may end up being worst than whatever Kaladin/Shallan went through and certainly worst than whatever Dalinar/Renarin went through. He is about to be chastised by his father, potentially kicked out of his family while having to deal with the fact he is the only "undeserving" individual among his closed ones. He is about to lose everything he ever had and when you stand so high, the fall hurts, quite bad. No other character have lost as much as Adolin may end up losing, but it all depends on which story the author wants to write. From my perspective, Adolin could end up being rejected by basically everyone: his father, his family, his peers, every single girl he ever dated including Shallan. No other character have suffered so much rejection, even Renarin was universally accepted within Bridge 4. Adolin just doesn't fit anywhere and if he can't fit anymore within his family, then he is truly alone, completely alone.

Of course, this is my perspective, this is the story I wish the author would write, this is the story I believe fits the character the best, not the one I think he'll write.

[Eki]

5 hours ago, maxal said:

He failed, so he gave up and while he has all the best excuses in the world, he still gives.

I wouldn't be so sure it was because he "failed". He knew that he couldn't wield a shardblade, because it screams out in pain every time he does. So why continue training with shardplate? Everyone would expect him to use it with the shardblade. And at that point, he may even have developed his friendship with Glys enough to care about his feelings as well - spren are very uncomfortable around dead shardblades, understandably.

I think it would reflect worse on Renarin if he did continue his training, knowing it would cause pain to the spren in his blade, as well as Glys.

That said, I don't want Renarin to become a soldier either. I'm fine with him learning how to defend himself, and of course use his surges, but I don't want him to just change completely and become some badass voidbringer killer.

I think the whole reason he wanted to learn how to fight and stuff was because of his society's views on masculinity and being lighteyes. Now that he's a Knight, he has a new purpose. That may include a bit of fighting, but not necessarily being a soldier.

[Argel he/him]

There are so many wildcards around Renarin. Is he really a Truthwatcher? Why does Brandon RAFO what Glys looks like? If there Trutchwatchers are the order that did not betray their oaths, then has he been in contact with other Truthwatchers or their herald? Assuming he is a Truthwatcher, hopefully he will start asking questions of his fellow KRs instead of remaining silent about e.g. the screams from the shardbade.

Regarding Adolin, we know Brandon has suggested things will play out in ways we do not expect, and I think exiled, ostracized by Dalinar, etc. are all things we expect. I guess one question worth asking is what would an Edgedancer think of what he did? Maybe reviving that shardblade just got even harder? Or easier?

[maxal she/her]

2 hours ago, Eki said:

I wouldn't be so sure it was because he "failed". He knew that he couldn't wield a shardblade, because it screams out in pain every time he does. So why continue training with shardplate? Everyone would expect him to use it with the shardblade. And at that point, he may even have developed his friendship with Glys enough to care about his feelings as well - spren are very uncomfortable around dead shardblades, understandably.

I think it would reflect worse on Renarin if he did continue his training, knowing it would cause pain to the spren in his blade, as well as Glys.

That said, I don't want Renarin to become a soldier either. I'm fine with him learning how to defend himself, and of course use his surges, but I don't want him to just change completely and become some badass voidbringer killer.

I think the whole reason he wanted to learn how to fight and stuff was because of his society's views on masculinity and being lighteyes. Now that he's a Knight, he has a new purpose. That may include a bit of fighting, but not necessarily being a soldier.

Unless I am mistaken, it is stated he never went back to the training ground after the 4 on 1 duel. It wasn't the first instance he has heard his Blade scream, so what changed? My thoughts have been he thought himself so useless it was pointless to even continue (from his perspective of course, I do think Renarin is hard on himself: he is/was more useful then he gives himself credit for). His talk with his father, at the Tower, indicates he has not known about the dead-Blades: all he knew was his was screaming at him. He didn't know why, he thought he was to blame. So what changed after the 4 on 1 duel? He had withstand it before, so why did he suddenly decided he had to strop his training? 

It has been bothering me and, depending upon which way you look at it, it does appear as if he just gave up upon having "failed" at proving himself during the 4 on 1 duel. Is this the good/real reason? Without a POV, it is practically impossible to say, but the timing for his decision does weight negatively into the balance. 

This being said, I do feel Renarin's story arc should pass through him figuring out being a soldier isn't the only way to be useful in life. While I do wish for him to develop his self-defense skill, I even have potential story arcs where he does end up having enough skill to pull his own weight into a fight, I do not wish for him to do a full 180. It wouldn't be truthtful to the character, IMHO.

39 minutes ago, Argel said:

There are so many wildcards around Renarin. Is he really a Truthwatcher? Why does Brandon RAFO what Glys looks like? If there Trutchwatchers are the order that did not betray their oaths, then has he been in contact with other Truthwatchers or their herald? Assuming he is a Truthwatcher, hopefully he will start asking questions of his fellow KRs instead of remaining silent about e.g. the screams from the shardbade.

Regarding Adolin, we know Brandon has suggested things will play out in ways we do not expect, and I think exiled, ostracized by Dalinar, etc. are all things we expect. I guess one question worth asking is what would an Edgedancer think of what he did? Maybe reviving that shardblade just got even harder? Or easier?

Why did Brandon RAFO Glys's appearance? My thoughts are he did it to avoid us figuring out which order Ym belongs too. For a reason which still eludes me (there has been theories, but nothing too solid), he doesn't want to let this one slip. This being said, there has been talk as to whether or not Renarin truly is a Truthwatcher, but I am leaning towards Brandon RAFO-ing Glys appearance being relevant to Ym and not Renarin. 

Renarin not talking, keeping everything to himself is one of the reasons I find his character less interesting. As I said in other posts, I enjoy character interactions and the drama which can arise from them, but Renarin's story arc appears to happen in between him and himself which isn't something I tend to enjoy, in a general manner. So hopefully now he revealed himself, he'll be more open to idea of discussing his conditions with others as opposed to keeping it to himself.

The problem with things not happening as we expect them, when it comes to Adolin, is we may have been expecting pretty much everything... Which avenue have we not think about? Currently, my thoughts are Dalinar's reaction, which will be negative, won't be the one which'll matter. He won't be the decisive element and it may be Adolin's own reaction will be his major source of conflict. I doubt he'll be exiled, but I am convinced Adolin will feel ostracized, if not physically, emotionally from his family. Or it may be the political mayhem which'll arise from it will trump all expectations. Another crazy idea is other Highprinces will try to use Adolin against Dalinar, trying a political coup to remove Dalinar from the Highprince seat and put Adolin in his place. Remember the letter? Or which information did Ialai have to partake with Sadeas which she thought would interest him so much? They were plotting to undermine Dalinar and Adolin was their target to do so... So... What are we missing?

What would the Edgedancers think? If he truly did it because "someone has to care", then they would approve. Unfortunately, while there is some of that, Adolin did snap. He did not kill Sadeas while being in complete control of himself. He broke down and I am not sure the Edgedancers will be entirely fine with it, but I do think the order would be one of those who'd be able to forgive him, eventually. Has he make it harder for himself or easier? He made it easier because he has now snapped, but he made it harder because 

[Krandacth]

On the topic of Adolin's arc in the next book, I'd like to see the murder of Sadeas not be pinned on him, at least not for a long time. Instead he will be left with the self-doubt and guilt, which will fester, and fuel his existing inferiority complex that we see hints of towards the end of WoR: His betrothed, his father, his brother and his darkeyed bodyguard are all apparently paragons of honour and justice, and he loses his temper and commits murder? Not just any murder, but that of a high prince, which might well destabilise the already fragile and bewildered kingdom that Dalinar has been striving so hard to Unite, on the instructions of the Almighty, no less? The knowledge that he had exhibited such weakness of character (by reference to his father's ideals, at least) would surely lead him to ostracize himself, with no need for external blame.

This internal state then more closely mirrors Kaladin, Shallan and Dalinar, with their self-blame and dejection exceeding what is aimed at them from outside. Also, if he doesn't get blamed and suspicion falls on others who suffer in his place, then that will fit with the theme expressed by Kaladin as "why do only I survive?" and by Shallan as "I wish they'd stop hurting others and just hurt me instead."

So, if we hope for Adolin to become Radiant at some point, I think most of the personal repercussions of killing Sadeas will have to be self-inflicted.

[Argel he/him]

 

7 hours ago, maxal said:

Unless I am mistaken, it is stated he never went back to the training ground after the 4 on 1 duel. It wasn't the first instance he has heard his Blade scream, so what changed?

I don't recall either, but unless it is explicitly stated Renarin gave up on the training, we should not be assuming he did. And if he did stop training then it is more likely that Zahel put an end to it  (no doubt after hitting his head against a wall several times, all the while uttering some colorful (pun intended) metaphors).

1 hour ago, Krandacth said:

So, if we hope for Adolin to become Radiant at some point, I think most of the personal repercussions of killing Sadeas will have to be self-inflicted.

Alcoholism comes to mind. Elhokar appears to be one, and I know there's a WoB about the Kholins and so much alcohol.

8 hours ago, maxal said:

His talk with his father, at the Tower, indicates he has not known about the dead-Blades: all he knew was his was screaming at him. He didn't know why, he thought he was to blame

My guess is the dead spren was reacting significantly stronger because of so many shardblades nearby. Or maybe because more sapient spren were nearby (Syl and Pattern -- and presumably Glys).  Note that this a point against him being in contact with other Trutchwatchers, since presumably they would have told him. Heck, didn't Glys warn him? I can only Glys refused to be present while the dead-shardblade was in use. I hope we get some hints in SA3 -- really not looking forward to having to wait for the back 5 to find out.

[maxal she/her]

4 hours ago, Krandacth said:

On the topic of Adolin's arc in the next book, I'd like to see the murder of Sadeas not be pinned on him, at least not for a long time. Instead he will be left with the self-doubt and guilt, which will fester, and fuel his existing inferiority complex that we see hints of towards the end of WoR: His betrothed, his father, his brother and his darkeyed bodyguard are all apparently paragons of honour and justice, and he loses his temper and commits murder? Not just any murder, but that of a high prince, which might well destabilise the already fragile and bewildered kingdom that Dalinar has been striving so hard to Unite, on the instructions of the Almighty, no less? The knowledge that he had exhibited such weakness of character (by reference to his father's ideals, at least) would surely lead him to ostracize himself, with no need for external blame.

This internal state then more closely mirrors Kaladin, Shallan and Dalinar, with their self-blame and dejection exceeding what is aimed at them from outside. Also, if he doesn't get blamed and suspicion falls on others who suffer in his place, then that will fit with the theme expressed by Kaladin as "why do only I survive?" and by Shallan as "I wish they'd stop hurting others and just hurt me instead."

So, if we hope for Adolin to become Radiant at some point, I think most of the personal repercussions of killing Sadeas will have to be self-inflicted.

I agree this would be the preferred story arc for Adolin, but I do not think it is the one we are getting. What you suggest requires a strong focus on Adolin and many more viewpoint chapters than he is getting. Also, words have it on the Internet, Sadeas's murder gets resolved very quickly within Part 1 and well, Adolin has no POV within Part 1. The guilt, the inferiority complex, I sincerely do not see where it could fit in within the story architecture of book 3 where Adolin plays a very small part. I mean, Adolin has no part to play in Part 1 which is the longest one ever, he doesn't have a part to play in Part 2 which focuses on "another" character, he doesn't have a part to play in Part 3 as only Kaladin/Shallan/Dalinar have POV in it, he doesn't have a part to play in Part 4 as the main tertiary character for this one is Szeth, so I honestly have no idea where, in the book, Adolin actually have POV time and something substantial to do.

It is one of my recurring problems with Adolin's character: I have never witness such a popular character not get a larger focus in subsequent books. I have never met a character who's story arc seem to go right into complete disappointment and I have never seen an author purposefully writing a disappointing arc for a character as popular as him. Sigh.

2 hours ago, Argel said:

 

I don't recall either, but unless it is explicitly stated Renarin gave up on the training, we should not be assuming he did. And if he did stop training then it is more likely that Zahel put an end to it  (no doubt after hitting his head against a wall several times, all the while uttering some colorful (pun intended) metaphors).

Alcoholism comes to mind. Elhokar appears to be one, and I know there's a WoB about the Kholins and so much alcohol.

My guess is the dead spren was reacting significantly stronger because of so many shardblades nearby. Or maybe because more sapient spren were nearby (Syl and Pattern -- and presumably Glys).  Note that this a point against him being in contact with other Trutchwatchers, since presumably they would have told him. Heck, didn't Glys warn him? I can only Glys refused to be present while the dead-shardblade was in use. I hope we get some hints in SA3 -- really not looking forward to having to wait for the back 5 to find out.

Dalinar remarks Renarin has not gone back to his training after the 4 on 1 duel. It wasn't Zahel, it was Renarin. He didn't go back, he decided to stop. I unfortunately do not have access of my books, so I can't check it out. Poor books have been decorating my work cubicle for a long time now...

I don't think Adolin would become alcoholic: he does not seem to have this relationship with alcohol, but I have thought of him probably getting very drunk after everything collapses around him only to be force to face an even angrier father. I also thought spending a night throwing up in the privy and the massive headache on the morning after waking up to his father's very stern/angry face and Renarin's very worried one would probably steer Adolin away from a path falling onto alcoholism.

My thoughts are his preferred reaction would be to become even more impulsive and risk taking, to not care at all for his own life, to throw himself into hard work and impossible task without caring about himself. I have thought of Adolin getting on an accelerated loop where he never takes time off, he never stops to look at his injuries, he just goes on and on up until he hits a strong wall and collapses. Then, he can start thinking about healing both physically and mentally.

Another one I had thought of was the "delayed teenage rebellion years" as it seems obvious, from the text at hand, Adolin has spend his actual teenage years being daddy's perfect responsible boy, always obeying to his every rule. It is suggested within the story Adolin doesn't exactly agree with everyone of his father's rules, but he obeys out of love for him. I'd love for Adolin to challenge his father more, to even disobey. Imagine the insanity: Adolin walking out of his room wearing something else than his Kholin uniform....  Shocking.

Glys may not have had the conscience level required to explained in detailed words what the dead-Blades were: Syl wasn't either up until the end of WoR. While we do not all agree as to how far Renarin has progress into his training, we can all agree he is below Kaladin. He may have been bonding Glys for as long as Kaladin has been bonding Syl, but he has progressed very slowly, much like Jasnah.