Adolin shardblade

[Argel he/him]

Dalinar lectures Adolin on murdering Sadeas, and Adolin retorts back that if he (Dalinar) had stood up to Sadeas it wouldn't have happened. Maybe remind Dalinar about how many soldiers were lost when Sadeas betrayed him. I wouldn't mind that scene -- Dalinar needs to be called out for being so aloof and stupid back then. I'm not even sure I expect Dalinar to read the riot act to Adolin -- I bet there will be a lot of Blackthorn guilt (and maybe losing his wife as well).

Anyway, I do not think what Adolin did will be as shocking to the Alethi as it is to us. It's not like Gavilar united them by peaceful, philosophical discussions. 

As a side note, regarding cracks in the spiritweb/snapping, I think we are all forgetting the loss of Adolin and Renarin's mother. Do we know how old Adolin was when it happened? Maybe Adolin is already primed for proto-KR status?

[maxal she/her]

17 hours ago, Argel said:

Dalinar lectures Adolin on murdering Sadeas, and Adolin retorts back that if he (Dalinar) had stood up to Sadeas it wouldn't have happened. Maybe remind Dalinar about how many soldiers were lost when Sadeas betrayed him. I wouldn't mind that scene -- Dalinar needs to be called out for being so aloof and stupid back then. I'm not even sure I expect Dalinar to read the riot act to Adolin -- I bet there will be a lot of Blackthorn guilt (and maybe losing his wife as well).

Anyway, I do not think what Adolin did will be as shocking to the Alethi as it is to us. It's not like Gavilar united them by peaceful, philosophical discussions. 

As a side note, regarding cracks in the spiritweb/snapping, I think we are all forgetting the loss of Adolin and Renarin's mother. Do we know how old Adolin was when it happened? Maybe Adolin is already primed for proto-KR status?

Even better, Adolin shouting to his father: "Mother would have agreed with me.",  a sentence which is followed by a dead silence as everyone present can hear he flies fly, providing there are any flies on Roshar.

I personally expect Dalinar to react badly, the fact Adolin did it will make it worst, IMHO. Had it been anyone else... This being said, there has been strong indications from the author Alethi would not react as badly as us with regards to the murder.

I haven't forgotten about the mother... but sadly the author has clearly stated it hasn't been a traumatic experience to Adolin. He pointed out Tien's death was Kaladin's breaking moment and when it was argued Adolin had lost his mother as a child which should certainly be equivalent is not worst, he responded by saying he had planned to show us her death from Dalinar's viewpoint. He also re-emphasis the fact Adolin was a good strong normal guy without a broken past. Whenever Brandon talks about Adolin, I always feel as if I am reading a half-hearten superficial analysis of the character and while some would argue it merely is because there is nothing more to him, I keep on insisting there have been enough hints there was more. Why the author dropped them in while not acknowledging them afterwards is peculiar to say the least, it is as if he never truly bothered to draw a consistent portrayal of the character.

Adolin was 13 years old when she died: too young for her death to bear no impact on him. Mind impact is not necessarily mind breaking, but still... 

[bdoble97]

1 hour ago, maxal said:

Even better, Adolin shouting to his father: "Mother would have agreed with me.",  a sentence which is followed by a dead silence as everyone present can hear he flies fly, providing there are any flies on Roshar.

I personally expect Dalinar to react badly, the fact Adolin did it will make it worst, IMHO. Had it been anyone else... This being said, there has been strong indications from the author Alethi would not react as badly as us with regards to the murder.

I haven't forgotten about the mother... but sadly the author has clearly stated it hasn't been a traumatic experience to Adolin. He pointed out Tien's death was Kaladin's breaking moment and when it was argued Adolin had lost his mother as a child which should certainly be equivalent is not worst, he responded by saying he had planned to show us her death from Dalinar's viewpoint. He also re-emphasis the fact Adolin was a good strong normal guy without a broken past. Whenever Brandon talks about Adolin, I always feel as if I am reading a half-hearten superficial analysis of the character and while some would argue it merely is because there is nothing more to him, I keep on insisting there have been enough hints there was more. Why the author dropped them in while not acknowledging them afterwards is peculiar to say the least, it is as if he never truly bothered to draw a consistent portrayal of the character.

Adolin was 13 years old when she died: too young for her death to bear no impact on him. Mind impact is not necessarily mind breaking, but still... 

Mabe Adolin as been acting like his mother's death never bothered him and that one of the reasons he acts so arrogant and cocky to hide the deep pain he has inside. Also mabe Brandon is miss leading the readers on how he feels about the character so we will be suprised 

[If.you.die.I.go.stupid]

I'm only half way through the compiled WoB. They can be teasing and coy. There are things that he doesn't want to discuss, but I haven't noticed anything deceptive.  Of course,  that's the point of deception, but I suspect Adolin isn't broken yet. Assuming he will break,  maybe it will be caused by guilt,  his fathers reaction or some other ramification of the murder.

[maxal she/her]

1 hour ago, bdoble97 said:

Mabe Adolin as been acting like his mother's death never bothered him and that one of the reasons he acts so arrogant and cocky to hide the deep pain he has inside. Also mabe Brandon is miss leading the readers on how he feels about the character so we will be suprised 

I had once made the theory one of the reasons Adolin failed at all his relationships was due to an unconscious fear of rejection which started up with when his mother died. Ever since Brandon has said there wasn't much to Adolin while admitting his relationships issues were caused by a fear of not being good enough. This doesn't strike me as "not much", so huh I really cannot say.

Maybe we'll be surprised, but current indications have not been encouraging.

1 hour ago, If.you.die.I.go.stupid said:

I'm only half way through the compiled WoB. They can be teasing and coy. There are things that he doesn't want to discuss, but I haven't noticed anything deceptive.  Of course,  that's the point of deception, but I suspect Adolin isn't broken yet. Assuming he will break,  maybe it will be caused by guilt,  his fathers reaction or some other ramification of the murder.

Oh a lot of what Brandon said on Adolin isn't in the recorded WoB... I do not think he is being deceptive, I think he genuinely doesn't find the character as interesting as others and he may be baffled a significant proportion of his readership has as strong interest in him. I think he expected his readers would latch onto other characters but Adolin.

[If.you.die.I.go.stupid]

21 minutes ago, maxal said:

 

Oh a lot of what Brandon said on Adolin isn't in the recorded WoB... I do not think he is being deceptive, I think he genuinely doesn't find the character as interesting as others and he may be baffled a significant proportion of his readership has as strong interest in him. I think he expected his readers would latch onto other characters but Adolin.

Pitty. Adolin is a great character.  

[maxal she/her]

10 minutes ago, If.you.die.I.go.stupid said:

Pitty. Adolin is a great character.  

Yeah, I agree  I have lost much of my hope lately, ever since those SA3 updates were published and it became evident Adolin just didn't seem to fit in any given part with any level of depth. Each seems to focus on something else but him. He just doesn't have a role to play in book 3 or so it appears, if I base myself on those updates.

[muco]

I have a different take on this...

Sadeas used perfect opportunity to try and kill Dalinar and his son AND this was perfectly acceptable by Alethi standards.

So, why would Adolin using a perfect opportunity to kill Sadeas be looked down? Isn't what Adolin did was using an opportune moment to kill a rival, i.e, the perfect Alethi way of doing things? 

Oh, I can see personal turmoil in Adolin but are we imagining too much in thinking Dalinar would be angry? After all, the original plan of the whole duels part of WOR was to lure Sadeas and kill him anyway....So, what has changed now? It was fair fight between Adolin and Sadeas and the person who lost the fight, lost his life...

 

I can see repercussions from Sadeas family without any doubt though...

Edited September 27, 2016 by muco

[Argel he/him]

6 hours ago, maxal said:

Even better, Adolin shouting to his father: "Mother would have agreed with me.",  a sentence which is followed by a dead silence as everyone present can hear he flies fly, providing there are any flies on Roshar.

I laughed out loud when I read that!! Good one!! 

6 hours ago, maxal said:

I haven't forgotten about the mother... but sadly the author has clearly stated it hasn't been a traumatic experience to Adolin

Maybe the servants helped raise Adolin, resulting if fewer ties to his mother? Or Dalinar was more involved in Adolin growing up since he's the heir. It does feel like we are missing out on something here, because normally losing your mother would be traumatic. Or is there a custom we are overlooking -- e.g. do men raise their sons and women their daughters (at least once they get to a certain age)?

2 hours ago, muco said:

So, why would Adolin using a perfect opportunity to kill Sadeas be looked down? Isn't what Adolin did was using an opportune moment to kill a rival, i.e, the perfect Alethi way of doing things? 

I think this was explained in the book. Basically, there are different rules for battle and politics. Plus the battle gave Sades an excuse to hide behind, even if everyone know what really happened.

With that said, there are extenuating circumstances such as Sadeas' past behavior. And Sadeas may have stepped over a line into treason territory, or at least enough for Adolin to justify his actions. The problem there though is Adolin probably should have challenged him to a duel instead. There's also a "new" angle -- Sadeas is talking about undermining the KR leader (and doing so in Urithiru, the KR city/base of operations). I know have speculated the Skybreakers would come after Adolin, but it could go the other way -- if they can detect truth vs. lies, then they could ask Adolin to explain what happened and determine he is not lying (assuming he was telling the truth). Ditto for anyone claiming otherwise, such as Sadeas' widow. 

Anyway, with our luck it will be a minor event resolved in a couple pages.

 

Edited September 27, 2016 by Argel

[bdoble97]

8 hours ago, maxal said:

Yeah, I agree  I have lost much of my hope lately, ever since those SA3 updates were published and it became evident Adolin just didn't seem to fit in any given part with any level of depth. Each seems to focus on something else but him. He just doesn't have a role to play in book 3 or so it appears, if I base myself on those updates.

Granted I have not read all the SA book 3 updates. But the books are over 1000 each the few updates we have been given is just scratch at the top of this. Hold out hope. 

[goody153]

5 hours ago, Argel said:

Maybe the servants helped raise Adolin, resulting if fewer ties to his mother? Or Dalinar was more involved in Adolin growing up since he's the heir. It does feel like we are missing out on something here, because normally losing your mother would be traumatic. Or is there a custom we are overlooking -- e.g. do men raise their sons and women their daughters (at least once they get to a certain age)?

Maybe she died long ago ? Or maybe his mother passed away due to illness or something(or at least they thought it was illness if it was not the case) that's why they learned to accept it ? Also when did her mother die (was it mentioned in case i missed it) ? 

Though her mother does have some influence on Adolin which he takes to heart(when it comes to dueling he always has this habit before a duel to put her mother's prayer chains in his pocket).

[If.you.die.I.go.stupid]

4 hours ago, goody153 said:

Maybe she died long ago ? Or maybe his mother passed away due to illness or something(or at least they thought it was illness if it was not the case) that's why they learned to accept it ? Also when did her mother die (was it mentioned in case i missed it) ? 

Though her mother does have some influence on Adolin which he takes to heart(when it comes to dueling he always has this habit before a duel to put her mother's prayer chains in his pocket).

Do you mean his,  Adolin's,  mother? I don't think we know when she died. There may be some hints or a way to figure it out. For example,  if someone has figured out when Dalinar went to find the old magic,  that would give us a good,  rough idea of when she died. I haven't looked into this yet. 

The chain is meaningful to Adolin,  but Brandon has said it has no significance beyond its meaning to Adolin.  I wouldn't read too much into it. He caries it into duels. That could be a sign of respect to his mother or a show of her influence on him, or it could be simple superstition.  Maybe he had it at the first duel he won and feels he needs it every time after. His mom could have been alive back then and given it too him before the duel for luck. I'm hopeful that we will learn more via conversation between Adolin and Shallan,  or Dalinar's eventual flashbacks.  I wonder if they will have his wife's name. 

[maxal she/her]

18 hours ago, muco said:

I have a different take on this...

Sadeas used perfect opportunity to try and kill Dalinar and his son AND this was perfectly acceptable by Alethi standards.

So, why would Adolin using a perfect opportunity to kill Sadeas be looked down? Isn't what Adolin did was using an opportune moment to kill a rival, i.e, the perfect Alethi way of doing things? 

Oh, I can see personal turmoil in Adolin but are we imagining too much in thinking Dalinar would be angry? After all, the original plan of the whole duels part of WOR was to lure Sadeas and kill him anyway....So, what has changed now? It was fair fight between Adolin and Sadeas and the person who lost the fight, lost his life...

 

I can see repercussions from Sadeas family without any doubt though...

Both actions are quite different. Sadeas trapped Dalinar and Adolin into a hopeless battle. While everyone more or less guessed it was treachery, it hasn't been proved. Sadeas claimed he had to retreat to protect his men while Dalinar claims he did it on purpose which he cannot prove. Hence, while heavily frown upon, Sadeas's actions are acceptable mostly because they cannot be proved. More over, Dalinar cannot afford to enter into a civil war with Sadeas: he has lost too many men.

Hence the issue was dropped in order to favor alternate means such as reinforcing their position by winning Shards away from the other Highprinces while finding a way to trap Sadeas into a duel. Of course, it was agreed the outcome of the duel could be Sadeas's death as it is implicitly implied duelists both accept the possibility they may be killed, but Adolin clearly states it may not come to that. He was happy to just beat Sadeas and disarm him. 

The problem with Adolin's actions is he acted outside the standard regulations of Alethi: you aren't allowed to kill a Higprince just like that. You also aren't allowed to challenge on to a duel: Adolin make it rather clear he did not rank high enough to demand a duel from Sadeas, he had to be granted one, hence the ploy to have a fabulous fight deserving a boon. What he did is quite outside the law and others will demand retribution. What may save him is he may have had just enough moral justification to avoid the worst punishment, but by all means I cannot envision Dalinar reacting positively. Yes he agreed Sadeas may need to die, but not like that, not in a dishonorable way where his own son knifed a man in a bout of rage. 

Suffice to say if there is no reaction from Dalinar, I will consider it bad character continuity.

16 hours ago, Argel said:

I laughed out loud when I read that!! Good one!! 

Maybe the servants helped raise Adolin, resulting if fewer ties to his mother? Or Dalinar was more involved in Adolin growing up since he's the heir. It does feel like we are missing out on something here, because normally losing your mother would be traumatic. Or is there a custom we are overlooking -- e.g. do men raise their sons and women their daughters (at least once they get to a certain age)?

I think this was explained in the book. Basically, there are different rules for battle and politics. Plus the battle gave Sades an excuse to hide behind, even if everyone know what really happened.

With that said, there are extenuating circumstances such as Sadeas' past behavior. And Sadeas may have stepped over a line into treason territory, or at least enough for Adolin to justify his actions. The problem there though is Adolin probably should have challenged him to a duel instead. There's also a "new" angle -- Sadeas is talking about undermining the KR leader (and doing so in Urithiru, the KR city/base of operations). I know have speculated the Skybreakers would come after Adolin, but it could go the other way -- if they can detect truth vs. lies, then they could ask Adolin to explain what happened and determine he is not lying (assuming he was telling the truth). Ditto for anyone claiming otherwise, such as Sadeas' widow. 

Anyway, with our luck it will be a minor event resolved in a couple pages.

 

We do not know a thing of how young princes are being raised in Alethkar, but Adolin is portrayed as a young man having had a strong tie with his mother. Brandon has confirmed his sense of morality came from her, he carries a memento of her, he stipulates how he appreciates Navani helping him prepare for his duels because it reminded him of his own mother. All this implies he was rather fond of his mother, his entire reaction towards Navani indicates he perhaps misses her and wished Navani would step in as a surrogate mother.

I thus do not buy the argument her death had no impact on him. No way. If the author truly believes this, then he has written an inconsistency because it clashes with the elements we have been given within the main narrative. I do not think we are overlooking anything but I think the author is perhaps overlooking stuff when it comes to Adolin,

Clues I have seem to agree with it being a minor event being resolved in a few pages 

10 hours ago, bdoble97 said:

Granted I have not read all the SA book 3 updates. But the books are over 1000 each the few updates we have been given is just scratch at the top of this. Hold out hope. 

Yeah well it is just Part 1 is the longest part ever and it features only Dalinar, Kaladin and Shallan. Adolin has no POV in it. Part 2 focuses on lore, world-building and character building, but it focuses on an unknown character. Characters from the main narrative are said to have a limited role into Part 2, so while Adolin may have POV within Part 2, I fear it won't be many, I fear it won't form a cohesive story arc and it will be diluted within the new novella. Part 3 focuses only on Dalinar/Kaladin/Shallan and the Part 4 main tertiary character is Szeth, so again, not Adolin.

I really cannot see where Adolin could fit in. He has POV time, but I fear it will just a few chapters scattered here and there, I fear it won't be enough to call it a character arc. 

Also, the fact Brandon NEVER speaks of Adolin is very disappointing. I have never heard of an author NEVER speaking of one of his readers favorite character. I have never seen an author just ignore a popular character and speak as if he didn't even exist within the story. This is completely baffling and I still to this day do not understand. 

My thoughts are Brandon's impression on his readerships is strongly based on those who attends signings, but these seem to form a very cohesive group with similar interest. Hence, he may be extrapolating his readerships thoughts based on his impression onto the limited sample he has personally met. I dunno, but it has gotten extremely frustrating to have the author completely ignore the character.

10 hours ago, goody153 said:

Maybe she died long ago ? Or maybe his mother passed away due to illness or something(or at least they thought it was illness if it was not the case) that's why they learned to accept it ? Also when did her mother die (was it mentioned in case i missed it) ? 

Though her mother does have some influence on Adolin which he takes to heart(when it comes to dueling he always has this habit before a duel to put her mother's prayer chains in his pocket).

She died 10 years ago: it was stated in WoK. Adolin was 13 years old which means he was entering puberty with its lot of physical, hormonal and psychological changes. I would hazard myself in saying there is no worst age to lose a parent as one where you are undergoing strong changes.

6 hours ago, If.you.die.I.go.stupid said:

Do you mean his,  Adolin's,  mother? I don't think we know when she died. There may be some hints or a way to figure it out. For example,  if someone has figured out when Dalinar went to find the old magic,  that would give us a good,  rough idea of when she died. I haven't looked into this yet. 

The chain is meaningful to Adolin,  but Brandon has said it has no significance beyond its meaning to Adolin.  I wouldn't read too much into it. He caries it into duels. That could be a sign of respect to his mother or a show of her influence on him, or it could be simple superstition.  Maybe he had it at the first duel he won and feels he needs it every time after. His mom could have been alive back then and given it too him before the duel for luck. I'm hopeful that we will learn more via conversation between Adolin and Shallan,  or Dalinar's eventual flashbacks.  I wonder if they will have his wife's name. 

Brandon said the chain was not significant to answer question as to whether or not it may have been a fabrial or an artifact carrying magic. It isn't. It is just a plain chain which does not mean it isn't significant to Adolin. It is character building traits which is meant to show us Adolin may talk a big game, but inside he is a very sensitive and emotive young man. It is one of those elements dropped into the book which makes me angry at the author for, afterwards, claiming there is nothing to say about Adolin. 

[muco]

51 minutes ago, maxal said:

Both actions are quite different. Sadeas trapped Dalinar and Adolin into a hopeless battle. While everyone more or less guessed it was treachery, it hasn't been proved. Sadeas claimed he had to retreat to protect his men while Dalinar claims he did it on purpose which he cannot prove. Hence, while heavily frown upon, Sadeas's actions are acceptable mostly because they cannot be proved. More over, Dalinar cannot afford to enter into a civil war with Sadeas: he has lost too many men.

I think it was clear to all parties involved that Sadeas tried to kill them. The treachery part of the whole thing makes it worse rather than better.

Point I am trying to make is that Dalinar would be pissed at Adolin. There is no reason for that, especially considering their history. It was not like Adolin killed an honourable person or unfairly.

Again, what Adolin did was perfectly in tune with the Alethi way. He saw and opportunity and took advantage of it.

Repercussions would be there but not from Dalinar. I really doubt Dalinar is going to go to town on Adolin for offing Sadeas.

[If.you.die.I.go.stupid]

45 minutes ago, maxal said:

Brandon said the chain was not significant to answer question as to whether or not it may have been a fabrial or an artifact carrying magic. It isn't. It is just a plain chain which does not mean it isn't significant to Adolin. It is character building traits which is meant to show us Adolin may talk a big game, but inside he is a very sensitive and emotive young man. It is one of those elements dropped into the book which makes me angry at the author for, afterwards, claiming there is nothing to say about Adolin. 

I didn't mean that it was insignificant to him. He probably carries it into duels because it's a memento of a mother he loved. I'm just saying I wouldn't read too much into it. It is something consistent with her death being traumatic and unexpected or peaceful and painless as a mothers death could be. Either scenario is consistent with Adolin carrying the chain. I was also saying it might have been going on before his mother died, and isn't related to her death at all. She died when he was 13? I missed that somehow. Do we know when he one the blade? I know it was from Tinalar. I got the impression he was young and expected to loose, but I don't remember an age.

I do think there is a bit of superstition, unrelated to his mother, involved. I was a kendo duelist for several years. A lot of people have little traditions like this that they do before duels. It's like baseball players who won't change their socks when their on a good hitting streak. It's silly and almost everyone admits its meaningless but they do it anyways. He expresses that pretty well when Navani seems surprised that he is still following his old rituals.

[maxal she/her]

22 minutes ago, muco said:

I think it was clear to all parties involved that Sadeas tried to kill them. The treachery part of the whole thing makes it worse rather than better.

Point I am trying to make is that Dalinar would be pissed at Adolin. There is no reason for that, especially considering their history. It was not like Adolin killed an honourable person or unfairly.

Again, what Adolin did was perfectly in tune with the Alethi way. He saw and opportunity and took advantage of it.

Repercussions would be there but not from Dalinar. I really doubt Dalinar is going to go to town on Adolin for offing Sadeas.

It was clear to both parties, but it hasn't been officially stated and as long as nobody makes formal accusations, it remains a hearsay, even if everyone knows it for a fact. It is how Alethi politics are built: you can betray an enemy on the field and walk way untouched, but you can't make public threats as these would be taken seriously. This is what may save Adolin: Sadeas threatened him. Unfortunately, there were no witnesses, he can't proved it, so it is only his word.

I personally do not see Dalinar reacting any other way than by being pissed at Adolin. He has been using his son as the standard bearer for his new moral rules: he can't make an exception for him and keep on pretending being right. He'll have to do something, but what this something may be, we have yet to see.

Repercussions will come many ways, it is one of the things I managed to find out: Dalinar's reaction, whatever it may me, may not be the one which will matter.

19 minutes ago, If.you.die.I.go.stupid said:

I didn't mean that it was insignificant to him. He probably carries it into duels because it's a memento of a mother he loved. I'm just saying I wouldn't read too much into it. It is something consistent with her death being traumatic and unexpected or peaceful and painless as a mothers death could be. Either scenario is consistent with Adolin carrying the chain. I was also saying it might have been going on before his mother died, and isn't related to her death at all. She died when he was 13? I missed that somehow. Do we know when he one the blade? I know it was from Tinalar. I got the impression he was young and expected to loose, but I don't remember an age.

I do think there is a bit of superstition, unrelated to his mother, involved. I was a kendo duelist for several years. A lot of people have little traditions like this that they do before duels. It's like baseball players who won't change their socks when their on a good hitting streak. It's silly and almost everyone admits its meaningless but they do it anyways. He expresses that pretty well when Navani seems surprised that he is still following his old rituals.

He won the Blade at 16 years old, prior to Gavilar's death. It is implied it was one of his first official duels as it would be logical young lighteyes aren't allowed to walk into the arena before they reach the age of 16. His mother had been dead for a few years, so she didn't give it to him, but I suspect the tradition started with this first fight. It is one of the reasons why I yearn to get this one flashback scene...

Rituals and superstition are part of Adolin's character. He is the one who worries when Highstorms hit, humbled by their power which is the opposite behavior that his father's when he was the same age. He is the one who grows very nervous at the idea of Visions and while he does not come across as a particularly religious man, it does put importance to the fact they aren't supposed to be seen as positive.  He wants them to be pure inventions and when they are proven true, their existence unnerves him. The pre-dueling ritual is just another aspect of the character which falls directly in line with those other behaviors. He does genuinely believe his little traditions do help him win: he isn't willing to risk it. When Navani calls him out for them, he says they aren't superstition while Renarin claims it is just for good luck: two brothers, two very different answer. One believes in their power while the other knows they aren't important but goes with it for Adolin's shake.

It has thus been established Adolin was a slightly superstitious man who takes comfort in ritual, in conformity, in continuity, in routine which also marks him as an individual not enjoying changes or to be more precise, an individual who gets anxious in the face of changes. It works with the ending of WoR where we see the rapid changes the Radiants brought with them literally throw him off his comfort zone which results in him mind snapping.

These are small character building elements inserted to draw a more complete portray of him. I personally wish we would dig in further because what I have seen so far is really interesting.

Agree a lot of sports people have their own ritual: I wonder if there is a correlation in between the probability of a given athlete to develop a superstition and its propension to harbor changes within life in general. Or if there is a link in between them and the tendency of the same athlete to be a nervous/anxious type. I definitely see those in Adolin, but I lack the real-life sample to draw larger scale conclusions.

 

 

[muco]

2 hours ago, maxal said:

I personally do not see Dalinar reacting any other way than by being pissed at Adolin. He has been using his son as the standard bearer for his new moral rules: he can't make an exception for him and keep on pretending being right. He'll have to do something, but what this something may be, we have yet to see.

Could be.

BUT

In WOR, there are a lot of references to Dalinar realizing the futility of trying to "change" Sadeas. The instance when Amaram tells Dalinar to trust Sadeas and getting rejected by him is telling. Dalinar had made his peace with Sadeas being what he is. In fact Dalinar made his own plan to kill him.

Yes, killing is wrong but killing Sadeas is anything but wrong. In fact if Dalinar or KR holds to their oaths, not killing Sadeas would be worse. Sadeas has done things and intended to do things that can not be quantified as anything but despicable.

 

[maxal she/her]

6 minutes ago, muco said:

Could be.

BUT

In WOR, there are a lot of references to Dalinar realizing the futility of trying to "change" Sadeas. The instance when Amaram tells Dalinar to trust Sadeas and getting rejected by him is telling. Dalinar had made his peace with Sadeas being what he is. In fact Dalinar made his own plan to kill him.

Yes, killing is wrong but killing Sadeas is anything but wrong. In fact if Dalinar or KR holds to their oaths, not killing Sadeas would be worse. Sadeas has done things and intended to do things that can not be quantified as anything but despicable.

 

While Dalinar agrees he cannot change Sadeas, he also believes he has to be dealt with honorably and in complete accordance with his code. I don't think it is killing Sadeas which is wrong, it is how he was killed. Adolin did not have the legal authority to kill Sadeas nor did he have the rank to actually demand retribution from him: his hands were tied. The only course of action he could have had was to walk away and warn his father, draft another plan, but he was just too unstable to do it.

Killing Sadeas is a double-edged knife. Yes Sadeas was threatening the unity Dalinar is trying to achieve, but removing him in such an old-fashion barbaric way will also threatens this very same unity. Dalinar can't claim to be building a new world if he allows his son to use violence to built it: this is exactly what Dalinar warns Adolin against. Unite them, but not how the Blackthorn would have done it. Adolin goes directly against those last orders.

There has to be an arc investigating the impact of Adolin's actions through Dalinar's eyes: it has to create a turmoil in him. The resolution just can't be a slap on the back: "Well done boy.".

[Argel he/him]

20 hours ago, maxal said:

It was clear to both parties, but it hasn't been officially stated and as long as nobody makes formal accusations, it remains a hearsay, even if everyone knows it for a fact. It is how Alethi politics are built: you can betray an enemy on the field and walk way untouched, but you can't make public threats as these would be taken seriously. This is what may save Adolin: Sadeas threatened him. Unfortunately, there were no witnesses, he can't proved it, so it is only his word.

Skybreakers could determine that one (tell if someone is lying). Not that I expect them to show up that quickly.

17 hours ago, maxal said:

Adolin did not have the legal authority to kill Sadeas

As you mentioned above, he may have. Just without the proof. Though in Alethi society, that may not be as relevant -- I thought they were more testimony based anyway. It's still kind of messy of course, but the bad blood between Sadeas and Dalinar was not a secret. That may be enough to gloss over the event. 

[If.you.die.I.go.stupid]

I know Brandon said Adolin broke a law,  but is it Alethi law? Urithiru isn't Alethi land. Why wouldnt the radiants rule and law apply instead of Alethi? 

[maxal she/her]

5 hours ago, Argel said:

Skybreakers could determine that one (tell if someone is lying). Not that I expect them to show up that quickly.

As you mentioned above, he may have. Just without the proof. Though in Alethi society, that may not be as relevant -- I thought they were more testimony based anyway. It's still kind of messy of course, but the bad blood between Sadeas and Dalinar was not a secret. That may be enough to gloss over the event. 

What constitute a valid reason to commit a brutal murder within the Alethi society is not currently clear... Uttering open threats is badly seen, very badly seen as Adolin pointed out. Are they reasons enough to justify murder? Even if he can't prove the words Sadeas said, it wasn't the first time Sadeas threatened Adolin... In the Highstorm shelter, he proclaimed he would kill his father within the next months. Adolin responded by saying he would kill him before he does so. There was at least one witness, Skar (or was it Teft, I can't remember). Would it be sufficient to prove Sadeas has been deserving retribution? I can't honestly say.

4 hours ago, If.you.die.I.go.stupid said:

I know Brandon said Adolin broke a law,  but is it Alethi law? Urithiru isn't Alethi land. Why wouldnt the radiants rule and law apply instead of Alethi? 

It isn't clear either which law applies when it comes to Skybreaker... I would assume Brandon is referring to the Alethi law, the one stipulating you aren't allowed to kill a Highprince. Their society is very divided by those ranks: the fact Adolin attacked someone raking higher than him makes matters worst than if he had attacked someone of a lesser rank.

[Argel he/him]

16 hours ago, maxal said:

What constitute a valid reason to commit a brutal murder within the Alethi society is not currently clear... Uttering open threats is badly seen, very badly seen as Adolin pointed out. Are they reasons enough to justify murder?

Normally I would expect a challenge to a duel is the Alethi approved approach. Though Alethi is much closer to might-makes-right -- e.g. Gavilar uniting the Alethi. There's what is normally frowned upon, and then there's all the stuff that corruption, shifting political views/alliances, what Elhokar says, etc. that can all change that. For all we know, provoking someone you are supposed to duel like that is an offense in and of itself. Though even then I would assume the "proper" approach would be to demand a duel now.  That may be what allows this to be glossed over -- most people would expect Adolin to beat Sadeas in a one on one duel at this point, in which case he was living on borrowed time anyway. 

Agree it was probably Alethi law, but with the KRs being reformed and given the Urithiru is the locale, a case can be made that KR rules apply. So if things look bleak for Adolin under Alethi law, I wonder if can demand a trial under KR law? Given that Skybreakers can detect lies, I assume they would rule Adolin was justified.

If more than one set of laws apply, then that gives Brandon the chance to say Adolin broke the law, even if e.g. Alethi law ends up overridden by KR law.

Here's an interesting thought -- Adolin could be exiled from Alethkar, which would allow him to stay Urithiru.

[maxal she/her]

1 minute ago, Argel said:

Normally I would expect a challenge to a duel is the Alethi approved approach. Though Alethi is much closer to might-makes-right -- e.g. Gavilar uniting the Alethi. There's what is normally frowned upon, and then there's all the stuff that corruption, shifting political views/alliances, what Elhokar says, etc. that can all change that. For all we know, provoking someone you are supposed to duel like that is an offense in and of itself. Though even then I would assume the "proper" approach would be to demand a duel now.  That may be what allows this to be glossed over -- most people would expect Adolin to beat Sadeas in a one on one duel at this point, in which case he was living on borrowed time anyway. 

Agree it was probably Alethi law, but with the KRs being reformed and given the Urithiru is the locale, a case can be made that KR rules apply. So if things look bleak for Adolin under Alethi law, I wonder if can demand a trial under KR law? Given that Skybreakers can detect lies, I assume they would rule Adolin was justified.

If more than one set of laws apply, then that gives Brandon the chance to say Adolin broke the law, even if e.g. Alethi law ends up overridden by KR law.

Here's an interesting thought -- Adolin could be exiled from Alethkar, which would allow him to stay Urithiru.

Adolin is not allowed to legally challenge Sadeas to a duel, even if he insulted him. There are rules to duels and just as you can't ask to duel the king, you can't ask to duel a Highprince. Only another Highprince can do so which is why Adolin is frustrated at times by his father for not doing it. Therefore, nobody expects Adolin to beat down Sadeas in a duel because everyone knows for a fact he can't demand one and Sadeas isn't crazy enough to demand one for himself.

What are KR rules? They don't even know what those rules are and there are only 4 KR anyway... Also Brandon has said the Skybreakers would not accept Adolin because he broke the law: I take it they would rule against him as murdering Sadeas sure was against any official law. Therefore, KR or Alethi laws, it does not matter: Skybreakers believe Adolin was wrong.

Or he could be exiled from Urithiru as the murder happened there and forced to go back to Kholinar... Several things could happen: nothing might be the most disappointing denouement though.

 

 

[Jondesu he/him]

8 hours ago, maxal said:

Adolin is not allowed to legally challenge Sadeas to a duel, even if he insulted him. There are rules to duels and just as you can't ask to duel the king, you can't ask to duel a Highprince. Only another Highprince can do so which is why Adolin is frustrated at times by his father for not doing it. Therefore, nobody expects Adolin to beat down Sadeas in a duel because everyone knows for a fact he can't demand one and Sadeas isn't crazy enough to demand one for himself.

Adolin and Sadeas have a duel scheduled for one year from the date of the 4-on-1 duel. Adolin challenged Sadeas as his boon, remember. He just didn't nail down the "right now" part, and Sadeas later accepted the challenge, but set the date for a year later. As such, if he provokes Adolin into attacking him, he would have grounds to back out of the duel without losing face; killing him would probably reflect very badly on Adolin under those same rules.

jW

[maxal she/her]

19 hours ago, Jondesu said:

Adolin and Sadeas have a duel scheduled for one year from the date of the 4-on-1 duel. Adolin challenged Sadeas as his boon, remember. He just didn't nail down the "right now" part, and Sadeas later accepted the challenge, but set the date for a year later. As such, if he provokes Adolin into attacking him, he would have grounds to back out of the duel without losing face; killing him would probably reflect very badly on Adolin under those same rules.

jW

Adolin's duel is scheduled in a year time and he had to face four shardbearers in order to secure it. Nobody expects Sadeas to allow Adolin to duel him before the set date and everyone expects him to find a way to weasel out of it. Adolin can't demand a duel out of Sadeas even if he has one planned. He was given a favor. Nobody thus expects Adolin to jump on Sadeas right now, but Sadeas may have been looking for a way to discredit Adolin and to remove himself from the need of dueling him. Still, if it were the case, he would have chosen a setting with at least one witness....

No matter how I shuffle it is the only way Adolin walks out of it without too much damage is if higher authorities recognized Sadeas had given Adolin a war declaration thus making it justified for Adolin to kill him or if they somehow all agreed it was legitimate defense, except it wasn't, so huh.